Lawyers!! Please help with clarification Please
 

Ok, so recently the National Wildlife refuge purchased a small island a lot of us locals used during the summer as a place to picnic, throw horse shoes, etc. Anyway they have now designated it as a wildlife refuge and have posted signs on the island that state, unauthorized access is prohibited. So given this how far into the water can they actually enforce this? I was anchored off a few yards from the island today in about waist deep water and was told by a federal agent that I was trespassing and that he can enforce this to the middle part of the shipping channel. Naturally I got a bit of an attitude with him, as to say you can enforce a no trespass hundreds of yards away all the way into a shipping channel, just sounds ridiculous..... So my question for all of you legal types, what is the actual distance they can enforce a no trespass on a federally owned island in the Detroit River? Can they enforce all the way out to the shipping channel or to the water line? Also where can I find this in writing? While I told the officer I thought he was full of $hit, I don't know the full extent of this law so to argue it with him wouldn't be smart either..... Any info you guys can lend would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!

They are handing out tickets on Sugar Island like crazy, good question!

the enforcible area ends where the revenue ends.

Correct, but they are saying they can enforce to the middle of the shipping channel. Which would be like stating, a guy standing in the middle of my road is trespassing on my yard..... Of course he isn't he is in a public road. He isn't trespassing until he steps onto my front lawn. So where is the front lawn (in this case) of an island? Is it the water line? Or should there be a public deed that states the exact property lines? I have been reading (on the Internet) that it is the "high-water line" but I have not found anything that looks like an actual law.....

Only way to find that out is to read the law or regulation creating that refuge and see where the boundaries are. It absolutely could go to the middle of the channel. Sorry for the bad news.

In most normal waterfront property cases the landowner only owns the land that is there at high tide. But if this is a Fed refuge they can also designate water as part of the refuge so you really need to get a map to see what they took from you/us. So few people realize how bad it can be when the .gov tries to save the birdies and the tadpoles and crap.

I beleave in NJ here you are allowed to run your boat up as close to the low tide line.

like X-Rated 30 said, you need to find out where the established boundary lines are for the refuge. Depending on how its set up, they may have the riverbed area near the island included as part of the refuge. Kinda like how some coral reefs are designated as national parks. Here in Pittsburgh my family's marina has water rights given by the Corps of Engineers that allow us to put docks up to 96 feet from shore, taking us up to the navigation channel. So it is possible that they can enforce the trespassing in the water.

You know in the eyes of this twisted out of control Government , a Bug or Lizard is more important than People are .

It to bad really, like most other good things, dis-respectful boaters/visitors ruined this one. If it wasn't for the Friends of the Detroit River, that place would be one big trash pile.

I was out today and this one one of the first memorial days I can remember that there wasn't tons of people enjoying the island...sad.

Get a petition signed that for many years you had access to the land!Then call local news media maybe they'll go for the hook not easy when feds own or re zone it:angry-smiley-038:

From what I read in the paper this evening the "Friends of the Detorit River" are fighting the no trespass. Not sure what the result will be.... What really pisses me off is the Agent that gave me crap this weekend said they closed it to avoid the boat burings, sexual assualts, etc. The boat burnings stop over 10 freaking years ago, and the sexual assault happend 3-4 years ago (I believe). I am not defending a sexual assault, but that can happen anywhere....

Yes, there were some real A-hole punks breaking glass and over all trashing the island. No doubt about it. But, the people that used the island often (like myself) did our part to clean up after the little a-holes..... The govt. should come up with a plan to not allow overnight stays (which is the way Celeron Island is), and maybe provide some sort of patrol to keep the little bast^rd punks in line.... What really gets to me, is Grosse Ile Residents were complaining about the noise... Hey Grosse Ile Residents, it is your spoiled rotten little punk a$$ kids that are the ones coming over in the middle of the night on daddys boat trashing the place and making all the noise...............

It just really sucks for me and others that respected the island and used it as a place for family outings. My daughter has grown up on that island...

I couldn't agree more. I had also heard the Friends of the Detroit River were fighting it, but haven't seen anything official. Unfortunately I don't see it changing, at least for a while. It always amazed me to see how much crap people would leave behind. It always sucked to watch people leave and me loading a trash bag full of garbage in my boat...most of the trash not being mine. Or all the people pull up with dogs, let them of to take a dump and not pick it up...so while I think it sucks, I am not really surprised. It sucks...maybe we can fill the rock wall in with sand and refer to it as the sandbar ;)

Tell them to set up cameras and hand out fines!:whistle:Just behave while you are on film:daz:

it sucks about sugar island....lets hope the idiots dont ruin Celeron Island for us now...was over on monday...it was a nice peaceful crowd...

We drove by, but it was pretty full by the time we were there....

yea only way to get a good spot on the beach there you gotta get out early...the g/f and I got out there at about 11:30 in the morning..at that time the beach was about half full...

When it comes to ownership, land rights, easements, etc., the majority of the country and states go by the MHHW line (the average of the higher high water height of each tidal day observed and averaged over the National Tidal Datum Epoch).

However, when it comes to the environmental idiots, there's no logical reasoning behind anything they do, they just make the sht up as they go.

We lost one of our best boating party hangouts down here a few years ago and it is now a "bird sanctuary." Birdsht, I say. There's nothing on there except sea gulls, but go within ten yards of the shoreline and the nazi azzholes are all over you.

Refuge areas are not bound by tide lines. Get a map. It's the only way to tell, and then keep it onboard so if they tell you to leave a certain area, you can phone his/her supervisor and complain.

Michael

I have yet to see the map, as they recently aquired the property. I think they are just making $hit up as they go right now. At the "town hall" meeting they had in regard to the island, the speaker said they will enforce to water line (so I am told, I missed the meeting). Yet the agent that hassled me last weekend says if my feet are touching ground (even in the water) he will write me a ticket next time as "I have been officially warned". I have a feeling it is going to take someone getting arrested and fighting it for there to be an actual boundry set... THis whole make it up as you go is total BS!

last year we had about 25+ boats run to horn island out of mississippi. we had a park ranger/ wild life and fishries come warn us for noise. he even pulled out a decibel reader. we were disterbing the birds! only one boat had a raido on. he gave us all a speech, we gave him the get the F*#k attude.

really starting to dislike theses guys they have to much power. more then any other agentcy. they can stop you while running then can board you boat with out reason at all.

Yup, those are the butt plugs that got us this weekend. Apparently the federal government has given the federal wildlife officer the power to stop the world from spinning if they deem necessary.......

That sucks, I'm on a corp owned lake with lots of wildlife refuge's. I've got one in my backyard. We've also got islands that are wildlife refuge's and we still have a great time. We can still beach the boats, drop anchor, party, etc. Its the egrets that do most of the damage by destroying the trees. Sure we have one island that sees a lot of trash, but nobody get harrased over it and a couple of organizations try to pick up after holidays. Seems more like a case of liberals run amok, we keep a tight noose on them down here.

No need to get arrested. The first thing to do is identify the agency that declared this a refuge area. Then have the agency send you the statute proclaiming and identifying the boundaries of the refuge area. You should just be able to call them up, and say "I don't want to disturb the refuge area. Please mail out the statute and boundary map." That should do the trick.

Also just being a refuge area does not necessarily mean you can't enter the area. There may just be restrictions on what you can do. That's why you need the actual statute.

Michael

Here in TN the TWRA (Tn Wildlife Resource Agency) has more power than a St Trooper. They can stop you for no reason, search you, your vehicle and your vessel with no reason, impound it for any suspicion and put you in cuffs for resisting. They randomly stop boats all day for "safety checks" and bust out the breathalizer. On top of that they can search your truck, house, or any other possession you have if there is a suspicion of you having any fish or wildlife or meat in the freezer etc...

A few years ago we were canoeing and they build a blind on the side of the river to hide and watch people as they came by the stopped them and popped a bunch of people for fishing and checked all the catch and wrote tickets for open container on a dang canoe trip! WTH else are you gonna do on a canoe trip?

So if you like to boat in clean waters or pull up to an island that isn't full of beer cans, cigarette butts, condoms, puke, piss, and other general discarded human debris you're a liberal? I'm not a liberal but I enjoy the water and all that it offers and find it pathetic if some "conservative" decides his/her trash must be shared by all.

Sometimes we're our own worst enemy.

+100

You're NOT a liberal?? LOL

Brilliant post :rolleyes:

So maybe I missed it, but where can you go get an actual zoning map? Anyone know?

Nope, telling people were they can and can't boat when they've been boating there for years makes you a liberal. Try and stay on topic.

In the hours just after Charlie in 2003, the popo closed the bridges to Sanibel and Estero Islands. They would not even let residents back on. If you had stayed during the Cane, and you left after, you were not allowed back. They did this for about a week and a half several residents were arrested for trying to go back home.

We boated the following weekend (8 days after the storm and two days after getting power back), and went to Sanibel Beach to Anchor just off the beach. We were RUNDOFF (to quote Oh Brother where art thou) by the local POPO and went to a beach that had no road access. My Bro-in-Law did find a 6.5" long Meglodon Tooth for his trouble at the new beach (it was where Charlie cut upper captiva in half for a while.) We never intended to step on shore, just anchor off in chest deep water, but NOOOOOO, we must have been there to loot the big screen tv's and other goodies we would have to carry across the open expanse of sand.

Figured my post would go over your head.

You think just because we oppose this that we all want to breath dirty air and drink dirty water and chit all over our lakes? Reminds me of someone else........ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH87c0h4WK8

Amen, I miss shell key nearly every weekend of the summer.

Yep. You knew exactly what I was talking about. :)
I go by there regularly and just shake my head in disgust. I can remember so many good times there. Sad shame!

It's been a while since I was in grade school, but I remember singing a song :

This land was made for you and me .... :silenced:

go with what micheal1 wrote, agents are required to inform you of statute(print and lamenate several copies). on new changes we were required to inform public and tell where changes were posted or present copy of changes. they cannot impose regs into channel, lot of communities try to impose no wake, speed and noise into working channel, reality has to exist! the state and federal agents i worked with always bragged; 90% of law enforcement is baffling bull***t. the problem is most judges are so screwed up liberal your chance in court is low.

Indy is totally right, it's a shame that a few people screw it up for everyone. I'm not really sure why you are arguing. We all agree the environmentalist go out of their way to do this kind of stuff, but it's only giving them the reason to do it why they are able.

Maybe I'm just confused because I'm a moderate, oh wait, that's not it, it's just I don't like everyone else's $hit all over the place. And it's not just trash, it pretty nasty when you need to dodge condoms, ****, etc.

Again -- this is really sad to see happen, but I'm not really surprised...to bad for the respectful users of the island.

Its very easy to understand. You won't find anybody here supporting trash on the lake. I presume this area already has fines in place for littering. Just enforce the littering laws that have been on the books for decades, don't close down a whole beach on account of a few idiots. That would hurt the economy, but I realize that comes second to environmentalist and federal agencies. We've had the same thing down here. Had a public beach they couldn't control. Condoms on beach? Try heroin needles and viles.......prostitution, drugs, etc. the Corp closed down the road access to the beach and leased it to a church. People can still boat, beach, party, etc.

You going to close down the roadways for littering too?