Poker Runs – Are we going too fast?
 

Recent incidents like the crash of My Way at the Thousand Islands Poker Run bring up an interesting question. Are Poker Runs getting to the point where boats are running too fast?

This is not a new problem or question as I think we all know what happened a number of years ago in the Smoke on the Water Poker Run. Unlike the My Way incident where fortunately nobody was hurt, lives were lost and lawsuits were filed. Well meaning individuals who used to run that fine event have pretty well had their lives ruined in court. And I should note that by all accounts, the boats involved in that crash were not going anywhere near as fast as My Way.

So why would I suggest that speeds in Poker Runs may have gotten out of control? First of all, look at how fast the boat was going (in the video) just before the crash. Even in the best of conditions with the best people behind the controls, things happen so fast at that speed as to make adequate reaction to “special circumstances” (like a big wake) problematic at best. Second, note when the real damage occurred to the boat – after they’d backed out of the throttles on the second bounce. Imagine what would have happened if they got as much air on the first kite? No matter how well constructed the boat was, nobody would have survived. Finally, notice that none of the pictures that have surfaced as of yet show medical / rescue boats anywhere near My Way after the crash. Thank god nobody was hurt.

And here’s one more important thing to think about for all of us that participate in and run Poker Runs. By all accounts, the crew on My Way is as close as one’s going to get to professional racers – yet they’ve still been involved in two fairly serious incidents this year. Think about the average Poker Run participant and their equipment. Do they have “adequate” time behind the wheel to handle all conditions? Is their hardware adequate for the task, up to date and safe? Did anybody verify that both boat and crew were up to the task? The answer is “probably not.” And that should be cause for some concern.

So the question I have to ask is whether or not we can reasonably allow boats to go this fast on a unsecured course in a “recreational” event?

Full Disclosure: I am the former Race Director for the Rochester Offshore Powerboat Association. I also used to co-run the Radar Run portion of our annual Battleship Run on Seneca Lake with another OSO member until we talked the club out of it for liability reasons.

Repost from other thread
 

On the topic of speed limits only. It seems the insurance companies use 75 as a benchmark to set rates. Would that even be practical (or fun) on a Poker Run? .02

It also has to do with the size of the boat and other water traffic, waves, conditions, etc.

There is something about Poker Runs that brings out the retard in certain people. If you are the kind of guy that will run those kinds of speeds along with other boating traffic IMO you are stupid.

When the weather is good almost every body of inland water, on the weekends, is not going to be an ideal place to run at very fast speeds. Other boaters are unpredictable, waves are unpredictable, etc. etc.

When I went to AOTH, which is a 'fun event', I couldn't believe how many nice dudes could drive like absolute retards on the runs. There are example after example of this. There were a couple of accidents in Destin this year and there were others in the past. They have happened at much slower speeds so a 'speed limit' would be silly. It needs to be a common sense factor by each individual... unfortunately I doubt that will ever actually happen.

There's a time and a place and it is up to the operator to determine this, unfortunately this seems hard, here in WNY we are fortunate enough to have one part of the run in the river, controlled area speeds down, even had a sheriff escort this year for the busy section of the river, then we go out into lake erie where its wide open (ok not this year) and everyone can stretch it out in a safe environment, based on the video I seen my opinion is speeds should not have been that high with that much traffic/spectator's, This does not mean it could not happen here we have all been way out in the lake and wondered where that roller came from, its just less likely

just my .02 and that don't mean crap so boat on!!

It's all about paying atention if you were running the speed my way was going and you see a 520searay plowing by you would think they would have got out of the throttle and started to trim down alittle in the video it didn't even look like he bothered slowing down.
Brett

+1

Great thread but.....
 

This should get good in a hurry ;) I think I'll keep my opinion to myself too. :food-smiley-007:

there will be a ton of keyboard racers on this thread..it comes down to common sense..no matter your experience or skill level

Missing expert !
 

Where's CATMANDO ?:evilb::evilb:

I do have to say/type..., after reading the first 2/3 of the My Way thread this is getting pretty stupid. (poker runs in general)
The clear video of that accident is tough to argue. The SeaRay cruiser was closer to 50'+ than it was 30'. It was off plane, plowing water. It can't make a bigger wake than that. You can see where the cruiser wake is in that video and My Way lifts as soon as it hit's it. You can debate blame but it is not the cruisers fault! That cruiser was probably making a 6' wake.
Here's the gig boys and girls. Debate it all you want but a "Poker Run" is NOT A RACE! Therefore, not in a controlled environment/race course absent of pleasure craft. A race course is controlled and patrolled. Go to a poker run and want to run a buck fifty.....don't ***** about cruiser wakes. (unless it is a patrolled/permitted event) Want to ***** about cruiser wakes...., step to the plate and sign your liability release and have at it.

How about this one......, you and the family are in your 23' bow rider following the SeaRay so you have a calmer ride. You nor the SeaRay have any knowledge of said poker run (how would you unless it's a patrolled/controlled event???) and are just cruising along enjoying seeing the pretty race (oop's, I men poker run) boats flying by when the big cat jumps the SeaRays wake and heads straight for you at how ever fast they still going.
Yeah, it's the cruisers fault. Unfreagin believable!!!
Sorry, now I'm pissed.

Someone posted earlier, this (poker runs at this level) won't last long and I'd say they're right.

I can tell you from experience about the scariest thing to have happen to you in a fast boat is to have your foot on the floor, the boats done accelerating and then you see a wave you didn't before. Not only that, you know it's too late to prevent hitting it at warp speed. What do you do??
Hope you live through it so you can ***** at the cabin cruiser for minding his own business in an open body of water and you not seeing his wake or realizing whats coming??? Let's see, open water, big boat..............., I know. Big wake.
Yep, it's the cruisers fault.

In a word, yes. As far as Im concerned without a cleared course, dive teams etc you shouldnt be going 150+ mph. Period.

This thread needs Chris Sunkin's expertise and experience to set us all straight.:evilb:

To Mr. T's eyes it no doubt looked like the tub was setting still . As for the op's view , you tell me he was so oblivious to his surroundings that he never saw all the spectator boats to starboard or the rooster TAILS' coming his way . There are quite a few of these tubs runnin where i do and a few there is no correct way to take the wakes they put out ! Too fast and your skied , too slow and because of the steepness and highth of this unnatural monster you stuff . The only way is way out around and still get blown outta the water ...http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...edeep/poke.gif...Their way of showing dominance over the rest of us ...http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...deep/loser.gif

This is what I posted on another thread...
 

...but is relevant here also.

There have been many outstanding posts, both pro and con about Poker Runs and the responsibility of the recent My Way incident. There have been some which were obviously more from emotion than reason.

As many have said, I am very happy there were no injuries with My Way and extremely saddened with other events (or things which happened around events even if they were not part of the event) over the weekend.

In this thread or one of the others a statement was made there were no speed limits so it is OK to run fast.

NOT TRUE!

On the St Lawrence there are speed limits for any craft with a total length of 12M or more. That is 39.4'. And that is 12M total, not waterline and not hull length; total!

Great Lakes-Seaway Handbook page 38 section 28.
SCHEDULE II - TABLE OF SPEEDS 1

I have Captained Performance Boats, have friends who are owners. I have become an interested observer of the activity and enjoyed following the racing. I am too old, too tired and too weak to have much more speed than my 6.5 knot GF in my own fleet. I have faster boats, but they are bigger and in humour I call my 16' skiff my 6.5 knot GF.

My real concern is if the organizers and/or leading voices of Performance Boating do not take an active roll of trying to control what happens from the inside, no one with any interests in Performance Boating will be happy if it happens from the outside.

well that worked out good...:lolhit:


by the way I agree with you...

let me start by saying just yesterday (8/12/12) I actually won my 1st poker run......entered and ran in quite a few but that was the 1st time I won....... and my point is that in NO way did I have the fastest boat in the fleet, as a matter of fact I was closer to the bottom then I'd like to admit. But I won..... so with that being said a poker run is in no way a race.....it is simply as stated, a poker game on the water. Now we all love to come and see the amazing machinery these guys bring and run but lets face it, in public water ways with other boats, jetski's, and people sharing the waterways it is crazy to run those speeds...... I don't place blame on the organizers because they are doing great work to help us enjoy our hobby and keep people interested (coming back), but they are the ones who really need to help turn the tide. I feel the perfect model for this is something like the loto shootout. These guys show up from all over to let it all hang out on a closed course with lots of safety close by. Then if I am not mistaken there is a poker run on another day. I would hate to say "speed limits" are in order for actual poker runs but if a "shootout" event has already been had there is no need to show case your top number during a poker run on a body of water where people are unaware of 100+ mph boats flying by. If in some way an organizer can pick areas or locations where higher speeds are allowed...... such as yesterday in the L.I. Sound when you are out in certain areas it is definatly open enough to push the limits but near harbors would be some sort of limit (enforcing this would be the problem). Or what about what they do in Jersey by having it on a Friday, that definatly improves the safety because let's face it the water is much more crowded on the weekends. Or run more open ocean courses, you can go out of Jones inlet on L.I. and run WOT all you want.....as long as you and your crew are aware of the risk in harming yourselves. Well that's my opinion and you you know what they say about opinions.....

Too Fast for conditions would be more correct.

On a closed/ controlled race coarse, with controlled traffic, safety teams in place, ambulance on site/call, everybody in inspected boats and wearing correct safety gear........ Go for it!

On public waterways, open coarse, no controls on traffic, un marked coarse, all drivers pro to rookie, no safety boats, lack of quality safety gear, etc. All bets are off.

Most of the responsibility or lack of is completely in the hands of the pilot of the boat.

It is the pilots and co-pilots job to read the conditions and drive accordingly.

If he mis-reads a wake, doesn't let off in time, loses control of his boat. ........It's no ones fault but his.

Everytime I have found myself too high in the air, or stuffed a boat, blowing the deck off, out of shape on my landing, I can honestly say it was nobodys fault but mine.

"Too fast for conditions".

Its out of hand, your run was fine pace boats for all three speed groups. NJPPC does it almost the same way speed limit in the bay. Ocean once you are clear is unlimited. Also all canopied boats have to have there own chopper with divers follow them.

Don't know these guys everyone says they are more than qualified to run at these speeds, ok is the guy that cuts them off? And as qualified as they are they still wrecked from a boat wake.

I hit a large cruiser wake once wide open, not any where near there speed, in the air I remember thinking "this is going to be a long thread if I screw this up" really I did, never did I think it was the cruisers fault. It was my responsibility as the operator of my boat to see it,I didn't. Turned out fine, but attitudes need to change or we are in for major restrictions when not if non participants start getting killed.

Hoped no one would...
 

catch that :cartman:
Was fine until watching the My Way video and how close that came to being catastrophic for many and then reading the idiots bashing the cruiser captain. He would have been in the wrong had it been a closed/controlled course.

Complete agreement with your post and a little add on to this portion.

Late FIL's Mainship trawler was damn near 16' wide and 20' tall under bridges. I have no idea of the weight but she needed near 6' of depth, and never got on plane or went fast.
Plenty of circle jerkers would jump the wake intentionally at much much lower speeds and get huge air in the small boats. I could never imagine what a boat in the triple
digits would do hitting it oncoming.
These clowns would 180 around and hit it again coming from the rear as he'd be hollering on the radio attempting to hail them to not do it. I really couldn't tell how big the cruiser or the wake was but it was plenty big enough even if it was only a 30 footer.

I'd say the Cap'n of My Way did a great job of recovering and came out alright but it involved a little luck too.
One of the previous posters was spot on. On our ZX10R ninjas street riding at those speeds everything looks parked even when they're exceeding the speed limit being overtaken and coming head on they appear and disappear in just 10 to 15 seconds. There is no reaction time.
Yes, my son and I were just as stupid as the circle jerkers I mentioned, it took the loss of a dear friend to realize just how close we were dancing with death to make the decision to sell. Nothing is harder than being with his widow and sons having a great time with our families and knowing we contributed to their loss by being part of the madness of speed. It is intoxicating indeed.

I'm very glad the crew was OK, control of the boat was maintained, and no other boats were involved.

See ya,
Kelly

Jeff Murray just PMed in from prison. He says he will steal the next powerboat caught speeding at a Poker Run. So slow down!

LMAO!!!
Watch out for him next year!!!

See ya,
Kelly

Well I made it through the 25 pages of the My Way crash thread.
Some of the comments blew me away. The speeds at today’s poker runs are definitely Too Fast for conditions! It should be a fun event that everyone leaves safely, as others said it should be about hanging out and meeting new people who have the same interests.

Last week there was a post of a video from the Lake Lanier poker run, it was shot by a guy who was complaining about the noise. In the video was a close encounter with a cat running at speed and a pontoon. What would you think about our sport if someone in your family or best friend is minding their own business and a boat gets out of control and kills them. As other said, it is only an amount of time before these runs will be a thing of the past if people don’t show better judgment.

It is nice that we can all agree to disagree here on OSO and do so respectfully for the most part . ( I do believe someone i call friend called me an IDIOT and i do think you should go back and reread my posts ) The one thing i was sure of and the reason i continue to draw attention to the cruiser is because this is OSO . Are we not supposed to be a band of brothers , lovers of speed on the water ? I intentionally targeted Mr. leadbottom boat to try and draw the bashing from Mr. Tomlinson , is that not what brothers do , stick together , have each others back ? I do think lessons were learned and the stains from shat in his pants will remain as a reminder of what almost happened . I also hope that all of you that ran to the defense of someone who was totally oblivious to what he was about to contribute to use better judgement than he did . Hopefully MR. T will read these threads and realize the concern we all have for him and the innocent . Hopefully all involved do the same . Police ourselves , yes . Have each others backs , i sincerely hope so ....http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...edeep/slap.gif....http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...ckeredflag.gif

That right there sums up many things, not just poker runs.

And is funny as he!!

I have been to numerous poker runs and seen a bunch of fast boats and have a boat that by any standard other than here on OSO is pretty darn fast. Now if you think that the My Way incident is any indication of the norm around poker runs you don't know what you are talking about. I just got back from the Emerald Coast run and yes sadly there was an accident by a boat not in the run but out there near Crab Island. I was also told that the owner let someone else drive and the boat began to chine walk and hooked ejecting the occupants. As sad as it is he was just a boater that happened to be on the bay the same weekend as the run. Now let's talk about the "participants" in the Emerald Coast Run. I ran on Saturday most of the day with the "fast cats" and since the wind was up and the water a little rough we ran 75-100 all day which is not very fast in the world of a big cat. I had times during the day when it was a little congested I ran about 2200-2500 rpm's which is about 55-60 mph. I took a couple hard runs as did most but it's done when there is safe conditions and nobody around for the most part. Now there are some guys that do like to run it hard and there have been some close calls I'm sure but grouping either the My Way incident of a race boat capable of 200 mph plus speeds and some guy out boating with his girlfriend driving to a normal Poker Run and especially a FPC event where safety is actually a priority and not just a speech at the drivers meeting is just not fair and an apples to oranges comparison. It's all about taking responsiblity for your own actions and your own boat and not grouping everyone into a single grouping with the idiots out there who are seriously in the minority at any event.

Very well said!!!!!!!!

Well Said. However, everytime a high profile incident like the two recent "my way" incidents happen it reflects poorly on the sport. Your right, there are poker runs that have a serious focus on safety, but the insurance companies don't necessarly look at it that way....... I am getting tired and my thoughts aren't necessarly coming out through the keyboard like I would like them too...

Not every sportbike rider rides like he wants to die and take eveyone with him. Unfortunately, every sportbike rider pays for it in overall public opinion and in insurance rates. While certainly not fair, it happens. The same thing has been happening for years with the sportboat segment. There is a right time and place for a "Big Cat" to flex it's muscles. A crouded water way lined with spectator boats and general traffic is not one of thoses places........

Bingo!
 

I used the word idiot in an earlier post in regards to the ones blaming the cruiser for the My Way accident. I misspoke and should have used the word "wrong". The cruiser had more rights out there than any of the poker run guys being that it apparently was not a controlled event.
The point was also made about lack of patrol/rescue boats along the course. Lets remember the Key West accident.
We lost someone in a capsule boat (they aren't safe if you don't have someone to pull you out!) due to (appears so) being knocked out and stuck in his boat for THREE MINUTES before rescue got to him. If My Way went over how long do you think they would have been waiting and how about the effects of that??? I know a drag racer that no longer races due to that exact thing happening while out playing. He was dead but his friends brought him back.
As also said, their actions effects us all same as the squid in traffic on the crotch rocket although he will likely take out only one person where a large/fast boat in public waters.........
Or, how about your 4 or more passengers? Think they really know/accept the risk?? Serious doubts.

I agree with your whole post, but wanted to take just the last line and mention something. Those of us that are responsible high performance boaters truly take your last statement seriously. Society (and the lawyers) on the other hand do not always agree on this one. For whatever reason, our society believes "It's always somebody elses fault." Said another way, there's always somebody else to blame for one's own stupidity.

So here's my big point. Either we address this issue ourselves, or somebody will address it for us. We won't like the latter.

Yep.
 

And then every one will whine that it's all over for no reason.

That is the funniest **** I've read on oso all year. :lolhit:

I have done a couple poker runs in my 10 years as a boat owner, both as a driver and a passenger. I really think it depends on the run. Smoke on the Water, the Chicago Poker Run, and Boyne Thunder are all out in Lake Michigan for the most part...plenty of room to run...and if a driver overextends his abilities, well, it can be catastrophic...but only for those who are assuming the risk of being INVOLVED with the run. That is one topic, and one which has been addressed in the Extreme Boats Mag forum a few years ago.

I think the bigger issue as far as potential to kill off Poker Runs is the issue of spectator boats. There have been MANY accidents in recent years where "we" have been killed...I worry about the one in the future when a family in a bowrider out watching the action is hit...you want to see a $hitstorm? 1000 Islands was one of the most frightening runs I've done...and we were only running 75-80. I could not believe the amount of spectator boats, and just how close they were to the course. Same thing with certain parts of Lake Cumberland. Most people don't realize just how fast FAST is...but its not their responsibility...its OURS.

Bingo!

I suspect that all of these points will soon be moot. You can argue this from each side as much as you want, but I'd be shocked if (just like "racing") all of our insurance policies don't have exclusion clauses that include "Poker Runs" and "Organized" events in the very near future.

My agent is a friend of the family and I have boated with him and his family in runabouts and Master Crafts since I was a small kid. He has never stepped foot in a boat capable of going over 55 MPH, but even he is beginning to ask me about poker runs. He is hearing this stuff discussed at national meetings and I'm his local source of info.

Not unlike others have stated so well here... my agent has recently said to me (paraphrased) " I'm not worried about your ability to drive your boat, I'm worried about the guy with enough money to buy a 150 MPH boat that doesn't have enough sense to find his way out of the rain."

Just like most things in life, it only takes a few to ruin things for everyone.

it is ironic here in ny u need a safe boater class for a jetski but anybody can go buy a 150mph boat and just go

When you can afford to buy a 150 MPH boat, you can afford a few politicians too.

lmao

This is exactly where I think we could be headed for. If poker runs are getting to fast then the bean counters will put a stop to it. But I dont see it being limited to Poker runs. I see limitations as to who they will insure being even more stringent than they are now. So, in other words I see go fast boats and esp cats getting even more expensive to insure and just less of us being eligable for and ins policy period.

I hate governmental regulations and laws which affect the way we live our lives. That said, in the case of "poker runs" and other non-race events, I believe that without some limits, there will be a disaster like the Ramstein air show suffered 10 years ago. Spectator boats lining the "course" with performance cats exceeding 150MPH is safe? No chance safety is of any concern.

The question isn't if the disaster will happen, it's when. There have already been poker run accidents (smoke on the water) which, when litigated, produced multimillion dollar awards. Imagine if there was a boat behind the cruiser, with a family on board. My Way was totally out of control, and would have obliterated anything in it's path. So yeah, in this case, to protect innocent people from testosterone laden wealthy guys, I would impose speed limits on poker runs.