Cat v Vee ... a seriously, curiously ignorant question
 

I have just finished re-reading both of T2x 'History of ...' threads. Fascinating and informative, but also curiosity-making.

Caveats to my question:Those two stipulations having been given: I did not fall off a turnip truck when it crossed the RR tracks coming into town. I absolutely know that Politic$ and Rule$ are $ignificant in all $port$.

<drumroll> Why are Cats not on more open ocean podiums? </drumroll>

Bob

:popcorn:...:cool-smiley-011:

cause cats don't like being splashed by water?

<< optimist: I hope for more light than heat. I've read some of the earlier angst abt the subject, but I figger that phrased differently ... maybe.

What open ocean podiums?

I understand where the OP is coming from. Its hard to honestly understand and believe in ANYTHING that has to do with Go Fast boats.

Politics
Money
Marketing (false/exaggeration)
No real test Data
No honest opinion from professionals
Rumors
Lies

Every boat manufacture does "great in rough water", "fastest", "best handling" etc etc. They all claim this and that but never have proof. There are no head to head tests like there are in sports cars. No test showing how many G's they can take in a corner.

I understand both sides but yes it would be nice to see some science, test, and proof on if a Cat actually is good in the rough, do step hulls really help, etc etc.

No matter what I am addicted to Powerboats and understand how challenging what I ask for is (not going to list all the B.S) but that still does not mean we can't wish for it.

Why start a new thread? Post this on one of the two threads already there..........HELLO!

HOLY SH!t. It's just like government.

Actually there ARE 'comparison tests' - the various racing series: who stands on the podium and gets to spray champagne.

There are Cats in Europe, and like in the USA, there are more Vee than Cats, but the Cats are still entered in CTC, Naples to Montecarlo, RoundBritain ... Round Long Island, Bimini & Back, KW-Cancun.

Cats are entered, but I have seen few podiums.

With the exception of Dubai, the UIM is not Cat-friendly, but I am referring more to the Open Entry, run-what-you-brung events.

It seems that in the USA, Poker Runs have taken over from 'Offshore,' but not in Europe.

L3 ... b/c this curiousity was not on topic for either of T2x' threads, I didn't think.

Find, buy, rent a copy of the book "Searace" by Crouse. It wil pretty much explain everything even though it was printed in 1989 not much has changed.
ede

One of the biggest reasons that you do not see more large cats in the long distance races comes down to the physics of what makes a cat work.

Big cats when running fast are largely aerodynamically supported by their tunnels. For example a 40ft. Skater does not get into the ground effect regime until it is going ~ 80mph, below this most of the lift force is hydrodynamic.

When the cat is not in full ground effect the tunnel is much closer to the water which can cause tunnel slap which puts huge loads on the tunnel structure and causes very high acceleration loads on the occupants.

This means that for the boat to be able to operate in a way that does not wreak havoc on the boat and the occupants it must stay in ground effect even in large seas which for some of the large open ocean races is simply not possible.

This past year the avg. speed of the winner for the Cowes-Torquay race was 59 knots, about 10 knots slower than what a big cat would require to even get into ground effect.

Ahhhh, eureka and cartoon bubble!

The answer to most questions is almost always 'physics,' and you distilled a bunch of amorphous thoughts quite well. Thanks.

Yeah, Vee Ganjavian's 38' Phantom made 60kts in some pretty rough & confused seas, and the other few finishers were significantly slower.

Cats CAN manage rough water, clearly, but there is a difference in a few miles of it, and a couple of hundred, too, I guess?

US offshore racing hes evolved into a controlled/known environment that allows for higher speeds for a short duration.

Nothing to do with real offshore conditions over any span of time.

I agree with the physics of how the cat works that is a given.

If any of you are old enough to have run alongside the old Popeyes 50' Cougar, Eric's Reality, Spirit of the Amazon or the 46' Skater Tuff e Nuff when they were new and in the prime you might say they could run in any rough condition. Those boats were all big, heavy with 4 engines and could out run any of the Apaches 41's, 47's in the rough.

Could they be good endurance boats, probably? Some people put the guy with the Gentry boat down a little when he suggested Detroit 8-92's in that boat. Well the Europeans all have always had factory support for their diesels, regardless of manufacturer the factory developed and supported them - we never had that here. We had people like me, the Merlin people with limited budgets trying to build hot rod diesels.

If you took a pair of 8-92's at 1.5 hp/cui they're 1,100 hp per side. What did Popeyes really have for Hp that they used 100% of the time maybe 1,200hp - 1,400hp and that put them over 100mph right? Look at haveing 1,100 hp that you could use all the time, the boat might run into the 90's and do that hour after hour after hour.

Take fuel consumption hopped up 8-92's at .38 lbs Hp/per hour is 418 pounds. Gas engines are at .53 lb hp/hr (?) so 1,200 hp is 636 lbs. You can start to see how you can carry a good amount more fuel with the diesel boat based on consumption alone. Your fuel weighs 1 lb/gal more but it still should win out.

So, your question of why not cats on the podium, maybe people just don't think they can because "that is not what we do in offshore"???

Great Post! :drink:

I agree that a big cat like a 40 or 46 Skater with a really steep tunnel angle can run in just about anything that a big v can. When talking about endurance racing though being able to run at 90mph to keep the boat up over an exceptional long distance is where the problem lies. Not being able to carry enough fuel is really not a terribly big problem to overcome if the boat were being set up for endurance racing from the start.

Funny that you mention Gentry, one of my professors has a bunch of old drawings from an endurance cat concept that Gentry had shortly before his crash.

You say "When talking about endurance racing though being able to run at 90mph to keep the boat up over an exceptional long distance is where the problem lies".

Can you explain that, what is the problem in your mind, people, boat, engine?

The big cats ran 150 plus miles years ago in Open/Super at those speeds, what difference would 200, 250 or 300 miles make?

All of the above,

Accelerations above 3g's cause problems for crew that are seated and long term problems for any crew exposed to it for an extended period.

Some of the current US built cats would need to have beefed up structural designs to cope with the conditions of a long distance offshore race.

Motors, as was said earlier the US lacks support from diesel manufacturers that would allow for a light very power dense marine diesel option to compete with the like of FPT.

Having a cat set up for endurance is very possible it would just require a departure from most of the current designs to have a boat that would be successful and safe in the types of conditions that are seen during races like the Around Britain or Cowes-Torquay-Cowes.

European seas are rougher, regardless a/o endurance boats are heavier and more overbuilt. There are a couple of successful lighter exceptions, OL is one that comes to mind, and is very successful in the GPS-Evolution class (read: slalom), but OL are 'overbuilt' in their own way.

I think that only KeraKoll a liposuctioned Buzzi 48' with FPT-650hps and Metamarine, a 46' who went the other way, SeaTek-950hp have had any notable success in slalom with diesel, but both have won several A-to-B races - their actual design condition.

I don't think very many cat builders add much mass on purpose. Their market is poker runs, not endurance, physics aside.

Plus, just showing up on race day and finishing is not enough: you have to train in seas, too.

Maybe IF there were some of the old-style races? The KW long course? 145mi or the 'Storm Course' of 75mi?

There has to be racers AND boats AND courses. If there is neither purse nor glory, there won't be a Miami-Bimini-Miami.

So ... there is a chicken & aig problem?

Admittedly, UIM is hostile to diesels, and to cats, invariably, when racing outside of Dubai rules.

I see no reason the Gentry could't run neither, and there are better, lighter diesels to get 2-3-4000hp than cast-iron Detroits.

Jean Pierre Fruitier won the Cowes Torquay race in a cat ("Rocky") back in the late 80's or early 90's. Cat s have also run and won rough (and calm) water races in the UIM all over the world.

T2x

Bob, the only reason I said what I said is the fellow who brought the Gentry boat was "looking for a pair" of drives, "looking for engines like 8-92's" to start putting this boat back together. I'm not one to count someones money but that implies he can't go out and spend $300k plus on state of the art engines and drives to power that boat.

I'm just saying what he wants to do is possible on a budget and get the results he wants which is a beautiful big peice of racing history that can cruise with little effort probably in the 70-80 range all day, not beat him or his wallet up and be able to travel virtually anywhere with it.

I admire people like that, not everybody has FU money, I don't - he's going to have a great boat that I would kill for and I'll still be sitting behind the keyboard. If I can give him advice so he can get it done, I'll feel pretty good about it!

We agree. Completely.

I am not sure I saw that thread, but was going off what you said.

If you are not going to race a boat, you might as well not break the equipment ... and those Detroits don't break easy.

Transmissions and props for the 8V may be harder to suss than the engines. :)

Bob