You forgot to add whilst dragging a barn behind it ! :party-smiley-004: Lots o drag to overcome verses wheels and transmissions .
I just had to add that i have seen car guys do this to boats and they didn't last 50 hrs .

I think the average boater does not hold his boat wide open like in poker runs ect.So the newer LS engines should prove to work well,if not better than the old big block type motors.Turbo's are the new wave,Make tons of power and are not as hard on the internals like the old roots and whipples.Avarage guy can't afford a rebuilds after 50 hours.And I think with the newer base motors and turbos are going to make a more user friendly big power market.Off course it will be helpful if performance exhaust systems would't cost more than people can afford.Just my 2cents JOHN SR

Building marine motors to sustain the current workforce at your shop would be tough unless you came out with something innovative like Ilmor did to compete with Mercury. If you started building LSX motors that are EFI and NA in the 500-700hp range that might be a good niche. Maybe if you did some marketing like putting "corvette" or "LS7" on the motor like Ilmor does with "Viper."

I agree that building marine motors that live is an art. As an engineer, I understand the brutal stress that a boat motor goes through, even at crusing speed. The motor is loaded hard 100% of the time. Marine motors aren't necessarily overpriced when you look at the cost of individual components like billet cranks, stronger blocks, billet connecting rods, AFR heads, efi supercharger systems, and jacketed headers which make the motors survive these stresses.

Yes you could build a 1000hp motor using a GM block, cast crank, cheap heads, etc...but its not going to last long pushing around a 38 Cigarette....

This might have more to do with the clearances than anything else as the marine engine operate at a lower water temp than a car engine does. Fresh water cooling might help those engines when used in marine applications.

No way! Lots of boaters run at 190! Reason is the parts are not engineered to handle the loads of marine use

I don't know what configuration does. The engines I run, raw water cooled, never get the temp gauge to move off 140 degrees. Fresh water cooled Merc and other fresh water cooled engines do run hotter as to the point I was making.

I spoke with the GM guys today at the Miami Boat Show and they stated the new LS small blocks are all fresh water cooled and thermostated and they are stock car engines with rpm restrictions.

Alot of the Marine vs car engine stuff is just comical. Will a marine engine be built a little better than car engine? Maybe but maybe not.

Look at the parts that they are built with most are off shelf parts. Besides some of the uber builds its the same stuff guys are building race car engines with, nothing special, most of the stuff is not marine specific.

A good roundy round builder can build a solid boat engine.

Do you think that car guys can't build an engine with the same crank,rods pistons heads, etc? is a marine engine builder more talented than a guy that builds for Nascar? maybe but maybe not.

Look at most marine engines, Yes they are under load but they spin them Sloooow, most spin them what? 5000 rpm? 6500 maybe rpm for the HI-perf stuff, in the car world that engine would be turning 7500+ wear becomes exponential with engine speed. So slow the engine down and it becomes more reliable, magic :lolhit:

LS1's Were tested into the thousands of of hours at WOT, under load, before release. The standard most basic GM test is 300 hours of back and forth from peak hp to peak torque under load.

Of course there are considerations that must be accounted for when building a marine engine (cam valvetrain stability, oiling, operating temp etc) but they are not some magical unicorn engine. If they were every auto racing team would just have a marine builder build their Engines.

Marine guys (with the help of Mercury) are starting to figure out what Auto racers did a few years ago, Turbo's are the future.

I would say a good nitch would be Turbo LS engines. Turbos love a Load, The LS combustion chamber is great with boost, The bottom end is stout. Use manifolds, that cuts the cost of headers, not as pretty but cheap and reliable, offer it for decent price.

Build a 400ish cube turbo ls with a small marine friendly cam, smallish turbos it will make torque like blown bbc, forged rotating assembly etc, stock ls3 heads, you would have a hard time keeping it under 800hp.

Very well put professor. Let me play devils advocate for a bit... First, weren't we talking about stock engines? Not NASCAR engines?
Didn't the ilmores have problems with broken cranks in the beginning? Not sure if that is true, but if it is, one could assume that a stock engine engineered for a super car could not handle the stresses of marine use. Also, if a stock crate engine would do just fine, I could pay $14,000 for a GM BB crate engine with 630 HP and have HP over a merc 525 that cost significantly more.

On a different note, as to LS engines, I am a huge fan of the LS7. Owned the 11th production Z06 C6. Put 60K hard miles on it. 6 bolt mains too!

I didn't hear that but maybe? I heard they had oiling problems which may have been the root cause of the crank failure. If you Own a vette and road race it you are probably aware that they will wipe the bearings if you do not do something to keep oil in the pan.(although you have an LS7) Thats is why the ls1 block was revised to the ls6, when that was not enough ls7's went dry sump, the damn thing would corner hard enough keep oil away from the pick up. and the pans are way shallow

There are some land mines with the ls stuff that one would not expect, LS7's although the most expensive are not the most robust in many regards, older cathedral ports heads are probably better suited for Marine applications, The flow is not as lopsided as ls3 heads, which already have to deal with wet exhausts , The LSX block is Good but IMO there are better options for the money, #7 cylinder runs hotter than the rest, depending on a number of facotrs the heads will lift like SBFs due to 4 smallish head bolts, etc.

I should have been a consultant for Ilmor I bet they ran into the same problems I ran into years ago, most of it is not major when get to the root of the cause but its not what you are expecting to coming from sbc/bbc stuff. (or um viper stuff) The LS is not perfect and will not replace a BBC in all instances but the gap is much smaller, and 600hp Blown BBC stuff makes no sense. (but I guess you have to save that XR some how :lolhit:)

If 600hp NA is the goal I pick the LS 9 times out of 10 to a bbc after that there are to many compromises and cost climbs real fast with ls stuff.

If you let me bring turbos into the mix, Its probably well past 1000hp before I want a BBC back. The combustion chamber of an ls, along with shallow valve angles and super stable valve train allow it get away with alot of boost, Hell I barley have any timing and still make power. You Just can't do that with older designs. ( I can't think of a instance where I would want an sbc over either)

On a side not Why does the merc 1350 run 7.8:1 compression? what is going on in that combustion chamber that 7.8:1 was deemed ideal? Maybe the LS has spoiled me :lolhit:

fixx
 

just saying what i have done in the past,,thease were just basic 350 cid chevy engines..i spoke with my uncle that worked at gm and he told me that mercruiser ordered then a specific way and they made them to their specifications..if you look at the late 80's and 90's when you bought a engine from gm they came with brass freeze plugs,,uncle said gm did that so if merc ordered a batch they could just put the proper cam and pistons in the engine..all the blocks were the same and the internals ..

SHHH!! No body is suppose to know.

Welcome to the site Saleen. This is the best place for offshore info.

Great thread
 

This is a good read.

I appreciate most peoples opinions being based in reality and backing it up with decent economic understanding.

My question is this.

Why is everyone saying start off with a 600-700hp LS?
Why not flood the "Joe boater" market with very affordable (Cheap!) 350hp LS based marine engines? You guys can make those by the hundreds with a little margin, right? Get people into the platform, let grass roots modifications take hold - Boom, people are addicted to the LS marine platform.

A $2g a day cocaine habit doesent start off with someone saying "Im going to spend $2g today on coke! Decision made!"

http://www.crusaderengines.com/Products/6_0.html

That is already out there, although it is not being marketed to performance boaters. I would think you could start with 400-420 cube ls3 heads NA and out perform the merc 525 at a lessor cost would be a start. But on the re power side any decent marine engine builder can start with stock 502 and do that for pretty decent price.

The big kicker with this is going to be new sales,(which seems to rebounding) You will need to package it with a drive, that's not too tough you can become an imco dealer. Next comes service/warranty network, good luck with that. Guys that have been around along time still have a hard time getting there product in new boats, now imagine if you are joe engine builder, that has no name recognition.

You could focus on re powers, so again you are back higher horsepower stuff. (If its a re power that's not high hp, you can bet either mercury is getting the business, or its the cheapest possible solution.)

There is no easy in, but good luck with what ever you decide.

I have a few of brand new these sitting around the shop.

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...KeyField=12378

We convert them to EFI running MoTeC M84 and a four barrel style throttle body.

I have been tempted, I must admit. I just can't get excited about building the manifolds. Then I start thinking they need a cam change, then after that the effective compression ratio would probably be too high.

But I keep walking past them and keep wondering. Sure would be nice to get all that weight out of the back of the boat with those two BBC's back there.

Go on, flame away and call me an idiot. I've heard it before and sometimes they were right :D

I remember Tyler Crockett converted some Nascar engines for a Sunsation several years ago. The story was in Hot Boat or Powerboat. It seemed like the boat ran well. You could contact him and find out exactly how well it worked out.

Do it. Sounds like a cool project.

A few years ago I looked at a race boat that had 2 bad engines. I was told the owner, when setting up the boat, went to the local GM dealer bought 2 502 crate motors. He stated merc 500's were nothing special. They swapped heads and cams out to get 550ish hp. The boat ran 4 races then the motors were done. From what I heard both engines had oil stavation in the higher sustained rpms and poof. Maybe 500's are not that special I said but they typically don't blow up in 5 hours.
This gave me another small lesson. Is there more work put into marine engines in not only clearances but also oil flow? I'm no expert but I would say yes. Just my 2cents.

no offense but i hear these stories all the time. cant use "non-marine" engines they'll blow up. such as your story above. and to contradict that i have seen merc 525 blow up in the same amount of time. how many times you hear about "gaurdian mode". even seen a few sterlings pop too. will say we ran a set of 750 supercat motor for 8 races, so yes sterling know how to build motors that last. i would question someone who has a car dealer modify race boat motors ?????????

theres way too many variables to make an "apples to apples" comparison. i run a set of engines built by a builder that mostly does dirt track and some drag. i have had no failures that i can point to because of tolerance or because some other reason relating to him not normally building marine race engines. our biggest problem was component failure - water pump impellers, that was setup by a marine race boat rigger.

back to "marine" engines, you guys really have to divide up the type of boats as per engines.
would a low compression nascar type small cube in work, well sure in 30' cat or a 29 OL vee. not in so much in a 40' fountain with full berth and bathrm

nothing replaces cubic inches for torque, and the only way to work around that is forced induction, via blower or now turbos.

and too reiterate i see very few poker run boats that actually push their equipment to anything near race conditions and or even extended wot running.

would be interesting to take a poll of engines before and after the miami poker run and see how many have issues, what issues and how many get rebuilt even w/o failures

I guess I should have made my point more clear, relative to the original poster regarding his shop considering building marine engines.

Those aluminum block 427 Windsors are $13,600 full retail price direct from Ford Racing. Shop around FR dealers and they are even cheaper.
No doubt even though they have forged internals, its not the high end stuff. But its not a cast crank and OEM production crank / rods / valvetrain either.

So even if we assume clearances etc are different for sustained high load high rpm than a "street car" engine, which is always entirely possible, there are still a lot of parts in this pile from Ford Racing that I'd think would be more than good enough for the average weekend guy like many (most?) of us are.

Boat racing with these things? I doubt they'd live long, I agree. But in my little 74mph weekend tug boat? They'd likely last forever (relative term). Chit, maybe I'd get lucky and get into the high 70's too for short bursts. I'm no ocean racer - and many of us aren't.

So to the OP's point, who is the customer for marine engines for his shop?
Independent shops would struggle to match Ford Racing pricing building this exact engine as an example. Different clearances, whatever, just look at part and labor costs. So I'm not their new marine engine customer when I look at all brand new all aluminum 600HP engines with forged internals, solid roller cams, and valvetrains that laugh at 7000rpm for under $14k. Even if I have to pull it apart and build it into a "marine" engine. You could spend the $14k in parts alone - the SAME parts - for an all aluminum engine. I have yet to find an engine building business who believes they could build these "crate" engines and sell them for the same money and make a profit.

So that leaves the engine shop with race engine and real high performance marine engine customers. Lets be honest, who are those customers going to go to? Trusted brand name marine engine builders in the industry.

Maybe I'm over generalizing. But when I buy real race car engines I call Roush Yates. I don't call an independent engine shop (no offense) or buy a crate engine from the FR catalog. I wince a bit writing the $60k+ check, I'm not gonna lie. But I trust them, they are very very good at what they do, and I pay for that. I'd bet real boat racers will do the same in the marine industry.
The rest of the time I'm looking for more affordability, like most other weekend warrior boaters. I'm not a boat racer, I'm a weekend warrior nobody. And there are already a mountain of more affordable engine options for little guys like me.

I just can't see a business case or market opportunity at either end that isn't already flooded with quality options.

No offense taken. I expect contradictions.

Theres a 24 skater at our lake with a pair of 5.3s runs real well, sounds sweet. Go to the skater forums and look it up.

Which ones are better for the money in your opinion?

totally agree, not knocking you, saleen, but seeing that giants like roush and yates pretty much had to join up to stay competitve and profitable. plus they now offer engines and engine programs for dirt and drag race teams. i don't know all the numbers but a friend runs R/Y motor in a sprint car with winning results, this is just a local racer in new york. he's actually spending less with them vs local engine shop out of NY.

You bet, how about 12 quart oill pans and very heavy duty oil pumps, windage trays, huge oil coolers and filters. My 454's take 14 quarts a side. My Wix filter holds almost a quart by itself. Oil is the lifeblood of these engines.

Having said that GM does build a lot of Mercs motors- the black ones you find in the Bayliners, Sea Rays, etc. Merc specs them but GM builds them and ships them to Merc who final dresses them with the exhaust manifolds, ignitions, etc. But those engines have different bearings, valves, rings, oil pump, etc. from your basic car motors. These are made more "heavy duty" parts and the clearances are set up for Marine. GM Powertrain makes pretty good $ selling these motors.

Wannabe

That would depend on my goal for the engine.
For a big cude engine I would have said a World products Warhawk. (It looks to be discontinued, Although there is plenty of inventory still out there, I have not looked into a big cube build for over a year.)

There is some precautions that need to be considered with that block. But There are some things I would look at on the LSX block too. expect to check everything and spend a few dollars making sure it is straight everywhere.

Depending on the goal a production block may get the job done alot cheaper.

IMO anyone looking to build an LS that uses a non production block would probably be better served with a BBC. Past 418 cid the price of an ls starts to get out of hand, and will be on par if not more expensive than a BBC. I really Like the LS but if you want a big cube LS its not cheap. I have a pretty Nasty 427 sleeved LS2, Uber LS7 heads, Billet everything etc etc, but I could have built a stout 540 for the same dollars, granted it would weigh more, but It would also make more torque.

Imo The LS will shine in up some 30 foot singles and Maybe up a to 38 in twins. Beyond that to make a single speed transmission set up work you really need more torque. Two speed marine transmissions are too rpm limited cause they were designed around diesels, Now if you turbo them, I think you can stick with a bbc to 1200 hp. (1000hp is probably more realistic though) Past that You are going to need an aftermarket LS block and 6 bolt heads other wise, you will lift the heads in a boat environment, And the turbos are going to get too big to bring in boost fast enough to make the torque down low that's needed(you can get away with more for short burst)

I would have no problem spinning an LS engine 1000-1500 rpm faster than a comparable BBC. LS Heads are Damn good from GM. The GM blocks are Strong. The Oiling system is good. (Some the pans are so shallow that are not good at keeping oil in them, and even the stock pump moves so much oil that it will suck it dry in short order. I almost always run an extra quart in LS powered anything.)

I think with any engine you have look at the strengths to cost ratios it offers and play off of them. (mercury is very good at this)

About a year ago I put together a serious business plan based on this topic. As much a I like the engine I think Its going to be a tough viable plan in the marine industry. You can forget about the tow sports market that is well served with ls based stuff. Volvo is going to have there 380hp 6.0l version out, I would expect a 430hp 6.2l version soon after. Remember Ilmor has a full line of LS engines that are not marketed towards Performance boats. So anything that directly competes here is risky at best, What if One these guys decides to flex some muscle in your target market?, You are not going to under cut Crusader,PCM or Volvo in the sub 430hp market. Even if you under cut Ilmor in the 450-600hp market, You don't have the name recognition, And you better be ready for a battle if they decide to push their 430,522, and now 570hp engines.

Imo The only lane that would make sense is Turbo LS engines. Say 600hp, 850HP and 1000hp power stops. But I still can't see moving many units even if it is a great package, and the price is right.

But lets say you ignore the above advice, Now if you want to play on the strengths use an LS3 block and heads both relatively cheap, and you get the benefits of Aluminum. Plan on a forged rotating assembly etc. The 600hp would be a 6.2l the 850 and 1000hp would be 415cid.

Now even if develop a decent power package, You have to get people to pay for it. So now you have two markets New boats and Re power.

Re-power, You have to convince people that your smaller cube turbo is better than the blower bbc engines that your customer will be considering. The Merc 1350 helps in this situation case, everyone sees the benefits of turbos. Will enough sell to make it viable? I don't Know. I decided it was to big of risk to bet my money on it.

New Boats, Are going to very tough Don't under estimate The strangle hold Mercury has. They have built allot of industry loyalty, And rightfully so they are not Just a supplier to alot of company's they are a Bank and business partner, They catch alot of flack but they do alot behind the scenes to keep the performance boat industry alive. Ilmor, arneson, Imco All have great products, but The vast majority of new builds have Mercury products in them, So what I'm saying is that unless the customer requests your product, Don't expect that your product will get installed as stocking model. It will be tough Even you offer to consign the engines until the boat sells. Hell some will expect a free set for even building a boat with your engines.

Another option to get some name recognition is to Build some engines and get them in some of the Hulls that don't get noticed as much it Could be a win/win for both companies. I can think of at least One cat, and One V manufacturer I would be after. And maybe a few more who might be interested cause they have some models that would probably do really well with a light power plant. Now you would be Betting that Entry level performance market will make a comeback.

Imo, There is one LS strength that is being completely ignored, and and more than one Pleasure boating market that would benefit from it. I'm not sure that I don't want to pursue it yet. :whistle:

On a completely different Note The Ford FE stuff gets overlooked alot, You could built Aluminum 482cube SOHC engines that would be Different?

I have been out of the marine market for more than 20yrs. now and it has changed a lot. When I brought this idea up to the owners I was thinking of BBC 1000hp and up, doesn't seem like that is the thing anymore. I sent the owners to the Miami show this weekend so I guess I'll find out if they think it is a viable option.
With 40 employees we are way over staffed, we went from building 10-12 engines a week to 4-6 engines a week. I think if we could do a couple a week that would keep some of the guys from being laid off.

Thanks for all the info guys,
Jim

BBC is by far the most built engine, but, that make its tough to stand out. Like it was said earlier there are a lot of builders already, and they have name recognition, You are going to need to stand out some how. I think you should look at the list presented earlier and look at what those guys bring to the table. What are you going to different?

lsx with twin turbo's 6lbs of boost.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a3...D550/ry%3D400/

Nevermind, I cant get pic to post.

Anymore specs on this build?

Great informative thread. Thanks to everyone for contributing and not crapping all over one another in the process!

I've been contemplating this transmission idea. I wonder if it be possible to repurpose a powerglide and remove the TC to make it direct.

I don't generally like the idea of forced induction LSX's due to their lack of head bolts, but maybe that theory has been debunked.

Yes a glide can be set up direct drive and the parts are off shelf stock car stuff, also it can be built as a shorty and would be about the same length as a BW72c but, there are no decent ratios. first gear is too low, reverse is two low as well. LS four bolts will hold fine up to an easy 800hp. There are ways to go way further than that if needed. studs Help, some aftermarket head castings are thicker which is really the problem. (All the GM castings are thin)

Its not a problem with the Real LSX brand block However they are pricey!!

I will see if I can find the build sheet around here and let you know.

I was running around 14psi through a whipple blower on my totally stock LQ4 for around 30-40k miles with zero problems before changed my setup. I've seen plenty of FI setups on the LS motors and haven't heard of any real head lifting problems.

My current engine with the actual "LSX" block has additional head bolts and extra cooling features.

This was part of testing with this motor, We actually detuned the motor to only about 930hp due to the heads lifting. It is a big problem, but again, if your gonna spend that money, might as well get the LSX block.

Ok, I wasn't running 1000hp on my completely stock motor but closer to 650-700hp and there were zero problems. I'd agree if you plan on going for anywhere near 1000hp an LSX block is a better choice, although there are people pushing the non-LSX block that far.

This quad turbo motor built by my engine builder was making over 1600hp at 6psi and had no head lift problems with the LSX block.
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...gy/engine1.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...gy/engine3.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...gy/engine2.jpg

Thats some nice Hardware!!!!



http://www.shutterfly.com/lightbox/v...cd1d30d33b21f1