Custom Engine Builders
 

Do you think there is room in the market for another custom engine builder? I'm talking like Sterling, Cheif or Teague.

The reason I ask is the shop I work at only does NASCAR engines and the NASCAR market is going away and I thought that custom marine engines would be a good market to get into to keep the shop from closing.

Thanks,
Jim

why not, join the club.....

Sterling, Chief, Teague, Scorpion, Potter, Innovation, Atco, Pfaff, Gary Teague, Baker, Troy Dennis, Joey Griffin, Cobra, Exact, Carolina, Gentry, JC, Zul, Mercury, Ilmor, Harold Grady, Keieth Eickert, Lightning, Wazzup, and about 4,382 other guys......

Exactly, go from a dying market to dead.

Unless you are going to come up with something very innovative, there is no reason to try and make a living off building custom marine engines based on a GM Pushrod V8.

The next builder to have success will likely be building something similar to the 1350Merc platform with SC on top. If you can do that with a competitive warranty in the $50,000 range, build plenty of them.

That's what I'm talking about, there are a lot of builders. We have a 40 person shop 4 dynos 5 CNC machines a chassis dyno and a full engine shop. It takes a lot of money to keep the doors open. Not sure we could do enough to sustain the shop.

Thanks,
Jim

Not that big of demand in the marine industry anymore, mercury has captured the higher hp market with their new products, the big cube blower motors are absolete today, unless you can build them for less $ . The 1350's are selling in the 100k range , with a 1 year warranty. There is no money in engine building anymore, too much competition. Most shops have few emplyees and low overhead. You can buy 1300hp blower motors for 40k all day long now

What's happening to the nascar market? There has to be a way for your talent to stay.

Teams aren't getting the money from sponsors anymore.
A truck takes between 3-4 million
A nationwide car takes between 6-8 million
A cup car takes any where from 20-40 milion
if you want to be competitive.
Companies just aren't spending the money on motorsports any more unless you are a big name team.
For instance a good friend of mine was talking with Farmers insurance to run a truck, he's asking for 3 million(he's a nobody) they tell him they can't afford that. Then they go to Hendrick's on the 5 car and spend 34.5 million.

What kind of money does it take to race these boats these days?

Jim

Nice list!!! BoostPower too! :)

Professional motorsport marketing urban dictionary:

Can't afford it:
The return (ROI) isn't there for the money you are asking for.

Most times its not the number of zero's on the check if the company already has a marketing budget. If they are asking (or even talking to you), they already have a fair idea what it costs.
It nearly always gets down to what they get back in exchange for their dollars, and how can it be quantified.

This is why the bigger race teams are successful. Not because they have more money - that's the result, not the reason. The REASON is because they understand the business of racing and understand that they are a division of their customer's (sponsor's) marketing department before anything else, and they'd better be able to deliver a better ROI than most other directions the customer could spend their marketing money.

The real reason why NASCAR doesn't have many (any?) successful small teams left. And those small teams buy from independent engine shops. Everyone else is at Roush Yates or Hendrick buying engines - me included.

My totally unqualified opinion is getting out of race car engine building and into the marine performance engine business is jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

But then again, I don't know chit! Its been proven over and over again :D

The future should be in GM LSX motors. I have an engine in my Denali making over 750hp at 9psi on a custom built 434 cui LSX block with a Kenne Bell 3.6 Supercharger for less than $25k built by a Nascar engine builder that has provided Dale Earnhart Jr. motors for some of his championship years. Why do marine motors need to cost so much more?

one word = MARINE

Your motor would melt in boat.

This motor would melt down after 15 minutes at wot in a boat

LOL you don't even know the specs of the build... Theres nothing magical about marine motors.

A supercharged LS based motor could work, and it would look just like this

http://lightningperformancegroup.com...ngine-675.html

I agree, I don't think they cost more it's they are sold complete with all the front pulleys, seapump, bell housing, etc.
I priced out a 572 BBC, (just got prices of the net), capable of making anywhere from 1000hp to 1200hp cost of parts was between $30k-$40k.
I'm guessing that your guy built that on the side but I could be wrong about that.

Jim

Thats where ur wrong,mu must not have experiencecwith big hp marine power, it is an art to make them hold together .

My setup wasn't built on the side. It also came with a ten rib setup for the belts. Obviously no sea pump though. Transmission was already built and installed so the bell housing was already there. I'm not saying the cost would be the exact same but it shouldn't cost double...

I guess your right nascar series winning engine builders don't know how to keep a motor together for long exposed periods of WOT. :lolhit:

Their not making 1300-1600hp out of a nascar motor, and its not in marine environment, getting beat to death. Nascar and marine power are totally different animals trust me

sure would melt in a 20000 lb vee bottom.

could be wrong but isn't there a 30 skater running around with a pair ?

as for the art of keeping bbc's together, no one mastered that for any extended periods like seen in nascar. this is one of main reasons unlimited offshore racing saw a major decrease in laps and true open water racing.

next the day of superchargers/blowers is gone with the Merc 1350.

valvetrain, valvetrain, valvetrain....plus no blower belts.

cant count how many times heard would have been first, would have won...... but lost a belt

better luck trying other forms of ar racing dirt track or other circle. much larger market

Actually my builder has built LSX motors making over 900hp N/A for racing purposes. They've also built N/A Big Block motors making over 1600hp.

This thread isn't about my builder nor my particular build. I was simply implying that new builders coming into the market should take advantage of the LSX type motors and their potential.

im with you on the lsx engines, give them time there coming to the marine industrie.

i agreed johnny, Ive built and raced ford pushrod engines for years and as a pro wrench the gm ls engine platform is a force to be dealt with. I am sure there is a market for light weight high rpm high hp marine engines. I am not a pro engine builder and know chit about building high perf marine power but I feel the ls engine platform will find its place.

Were a fairly small custom engine builder (15-20 engines a year)...and so far this has been our busiest winter in at least 10 years

If you think there is nothing magic about marine engines, offer one of the big boys a pair to test for you:
http://youtu.be/_zaRVwGmhuc

Hitch a 14,000 lb trailer to your Denali and drive WOT up Pikes Peak 12 hrs a day. It will blow! That is the duty cycle marine motors go through

Well guys GM is betting big on the LS series engines. GM has a booth at the Miami boat show, on the wall over behind Mercury, and they brought cut away's of the Duramax, LSA, LS? 5.3 and a V6 I believe.

You can purchase a LSA marinized from Indmar and Cruisader (I belive, they are directly across from Mercury), and these engines are a fairly good value for a 560 hp engine. Of course these engines have the VVT that GM developed so there is a lot of new technology in these engines.

What would it take to come into the MARINE engine market? Nothing, what would it take to enter the market successfully? A lot. Emissions are coming and coming hard. If you cannot play in that game then best stay small and local as there are rules for the big boys.

Technology: You have to make an engine that is like getting into a new car, and preferably a Mercedes as anything else is a waste of effort. The thing better pur smoother than a fat cat, start faster than a women can get mad, accelerate like a drag car, live like a Toyota Corolla, sip gas like a hybrid, be light as your dream girl and cost less than an ex wife.

Not asking for much but when someone steps it up and lets the results be heard over their mouth then you will have something. Else there is already an engine supplier out there building the everyday ordinary engines wondering how can I enter this market.

what kind of torque does an lSX make? Ryan you forgot one of the oldest builders on your list....

the "G" man???

They all want to spin between 5500 to 6000 so not hard to calculate.

Marine Engines at W.O.T
 

Im a baby boomer pleasure boater and I never run around with my throttles to the console all day long.I boat with a lot of people who are the same way.We take care of our boats like we do our vehicles.We want them to last as long as possible with out having to rebuild them every 50 hours.Who has the money in this economy to blow it out the exhaust at W.O.T?I think marine engines are overpriced also!Thats why the marine business is in the shape its in.If a engine shop like the gentllemen on here has could build a marine set up that could run 5200 to 5400 rpms and produce around 600 h.p.on 87-89 octane gas with a year warranty and be priced reasonably I think it would be worth looking at .Mercury only offers a 90 day warranty on there engines and look what you have to pay for them,Ouch!!!A boat is a bottomless pit that you sink money in to and only use about 4 months a year on the weekends and what ever time you can take for a vacation, that is for must of us hard working people with kids in college ,etc!.Just my 2 cents worth.Good luck in what ever direction you decide to go...

that thing must haul A$$!

It's interesting that a lot of you guys are saying the business is bad but I priced out an engine to put a proposal together for the owners and most of the venders I talked with are saying that they are selling more parts for the marine market than anything else right now.
I recommened that the owners go to the boat show this weekend as they are in Daytona for the races. Hopefully they'll go and give me some feedback when they get back.

Thanks for all the feedback.
Jim

I think if i pulled a 14,000 lb trailer anywhere with my Denali the engine would be the last thing that would blow up. Denali's are rated at 8,000 lbs for towing from the factory. I'd guess the brakes and drivetrain would be the first to go.

What marine engine can run WOT for 12 hrs?

Yea it moves pretty fast for a 6,000 lb + SUV. Its run a 12.01 in the 1/4 mile and runs 0-60 in the high 3's.

Ok, I exaggerated. But you get the idea... A 7500 lb boat with 1500 HP doesn't excelerate like a 7500 lb vehicle (truck) with 1500 HP. The marine engine works much, much harder to maintain any rpm compared to a street vehicle engine.

fixx
 

if they all had a 1:1 drive ratio i would agree with you,,yes they work hard but not as hard as you think with the proper drive ratio..

i have takin regular car engines in the past and put them in boats just for grins and they are still running this day..thease are coming from a stock turn key engines no hi perf stuff..

This is what I was taught by high performance marine engine builders. They all told me that a typical car engine simply will not last, hence, the cost of marine engines.

Notice that Summit Racing catalog shows lots of performance engines for sell and each one says : "Not for marine use"! They are not built for the rigors of the marine environment.

Wish this wasn't the case... $60,000 new 1000 HP motors are outrageous!

Rick

For the most part, i think if you took your car put it in first gear and sat at 4000rpms for 15 minutes you'd be smelling burnt oil. It'd be tough to argue boat motors do not take more of beating than car motors. Just because its been done does not make it equivilant. It makes it possible.