Engine Guru"s
 

I just had another comp roller lifter fail which led to the axle breaking out of the lifter body, contact with cam etc. I run a big cam with lots of lift and "too much" spring for my rpms. cam is 280/288 @.050 with .785 lift on 115 centerline, springs are 340# on the seat with 950# opening at 1.125 lift. Like a said too much spring for only 6800 rpm.

Has anyone tried the Schubeck Radius lifters? I do have a set on order but was curious if anyone has tried them. I hear a lot of sprint car guys run them. They weigh 1/2 of a roller lifter and have no moving parts (Like a flat tappet cam) Cams have a rockwell hardness of 65 and lifters have a 92 hardness. Only diamonds can cut these things. Apparently there are some marine installations that have "hundreds" of hours of trouble free operation...since the lifters are so light you can run much much less spring...ANY input or experiences with Schubeck??

I was going to try Schubeck's radius lifters when I originally built my 540's two years ago but I decided against it. However, I hear that since then Schubeck has come out with a cam that is more compatible with the radius lifters which is supposed to work out much better---before that he had problems. HOWEVER, I am about to try Schubeck's rocker arms that utilizes the same material as found on his radius lifters. These have NO roller bearings, they spray oil over the springs, are 17 grams lighter over the spring where it counts, are much less bulky, and do NOT have a roller tip but rather have a radiused tip with the special material. These are special made with 1/2" rocker arm studs vs. the standard 7/16" studs that usually are produced. We just went to install them and one of the trunions of the rocker arms would not fit on one of the studs. We mic'd it and found it was undersized by about .019" Also, we found that one of the 1/2" studs was slightly larger at the bottom of the thread line---therefore a rocker arm trunion would not completely seat on the stud all the way. Joe Shcubeck told me to send them back, but we just machined them and correct them ourselves. I'm a little MIFFED at Joe right now---wants top dollar for his stuff but can't seem to get his qualifty control correct---especially when making rocker arms for the 1/2" studs. He has made several of the 7/16" rocker arms but this is his first batch of rocker arms being used for the 1/2" studs. So one undersized rocker arm trunion and one oversized rocker arm stud. :mad: I called Joe Schubeck about the problem and he was willing to help, but I can't believe his quality control department missed this! He's going to be getting another phone call from me!

OH BTW, I also ordered 2 of his fuel pump push rods with the special material on the ends. They were OVERSIZED by over .003 and would not fit in the fuel pump push rod boss in my block. We took a new Crane fuel pump rod and it went right in NO PROMBEMO!

I JUST found out about these problems as we were assembling my engines 2 days ago!

I guess we'll see how these new rocker arms of Schubeck's hold out on my engines---at this point I am wondering if I should even try! :rolleyes:

I think Mr. Gadgets is has got Schubeck's lifters in his engine. He's been running for about a week now---perhaps he can chime in here and give us a report!

to the top----Mr.Gadgets....are you there?

LIFTERS
 

ANY OF YOU GUYS TRIED THE JESEL INDURANCE LIFTERS???VERY NICE PIECE..THEYRE A PRETTY PENNY BUT WORTH IT I THINK...A REAL GOOD ROLLER LIFTER BUT MUCH LESS MONEY IS THE ISKY ENDURANCE LIFTER ALSO..

The Jesel stuff is great, but the main thing is with any motor running this much cam is to change the lifters on a regular basis. Depending on how you run probably every 40 to 50 hours.

I recently read an article on Schubecks lifters and looked at their web page and was very impressed with the technology. I'm glad to hear someone is using/trying their products. I can't wait to hear the results. How much are the lifters and do you need his cam with a different profile to use them?

Incognito;

I have a buddy who is a serious drag racer that ran a set of the Jesel lifters, they run about 2200.00 are made of titanium, but don't last him any longer the the comp or crower pieces. Here is the inherent problem with roller lifters...they ALL run the same needle bearings..there literally is ONE company that supplies all the manufacturers of lifters needle bearings. I've heard from many racers, builders, etc that sell and use them all that the Crowers are the best on the market.

Cobra;

He will only sell a package deal now..Cam and lifters, due to problems in the past with varying hardness on cams. The lifters were wearing out the cams. Cost for package is 1325.00. Joe Schubeck told me the cam lobes will look very different than a normal roller cam but the "profiles" will be identical (opening speed, etc) I will have a great comparison because I went with the same cam I had in my boat with the exception of .740 lift instead of .785. I plan on putting the motor back on the Dyno to see if Joe's claims of not sacrificing any power are true. I really don't care if I loose 30hp as long as the lifters will live. I'm going to an Erson double spring that is 280# on the seat and 700# opening. Joe claims I only need 200# on the seat and 500# opening for 7,000rpm...I figure I'll stay on the safe side as sag sets in etc. If anyone decides to try these lifters there is about a 3 week wait mainly due to the cam having to be ground, heat treated, and nitrated.

Jdnca1,
Cool. You try Schubeck's trick cam and radius lifters and I'll try out his rocker arms----let's keep in contact with each other on this. I am very interested in knowing how yours set up turns out as I'm sure you'll be with mine. I think Joe has great ideas and concepts but is without the proof to back up his products. Let me know how things go on the dyno. I'll have mine running in the boat within about a week or so.

Mark/KAAMA

Do these wild cams actually make any more horsepower at 6000-6500? Or do they just break parts and put you on the trailer for much of our 8 week season.!!!
JB

jdnca1,

I believe you are right about the spring pressure being too high. You may want to check with Comp. Cams Tech dept. They make a roller lifter that is advertised for use in "street" driven roller motors. They are supose to have oiling holes that spray directly on the needle bearings to keep them cool and last longer.

We have a local drag racer that uses these lifters, and drives his car on the street. Last time we talked about it, he said he had over 900 street miles on them and 72 passes @ the track, keeping a good eye on valve lash. He has a beautifull '55 Chevy(#3600), runs a 502'' BB, and runs 10.0's all motor. All the information he told me about his engine set up is second hand, so I would recomend calling Comp. to make sure exactly what they recomend. They may have something you can use.

I have read an article that included information about Jesels lifters. The reasons they are supose to be so good is.....

*They have larger diameter bodies, (have to have block machined to accept them)
*They have bigger rollers (supose to cut down on the load on the needle bearings)
*You can use a cam with a less aggressive profile and still achieve the same durations(easier on the lifter itself)
*The lifters weigh less(shorter than regular roller lifters, and materials),but you have to have the lifter bores slotted to keep them in line(they have no bars to align them).

If you were building an engine from the ground up and didn't mind spending the extra $'s for the lifters and machine work, in theory they should last longer than others on the market.

I would give Comp. Cams a call and see what the tech's have to tell you, they may have something you can use.

Good Luck :)

Makino;

The comp lifters with the oil grooves are the ones that just failed...only 7 hrs on them. My previous set was the std. comp lifter which lasted about 35 hrs. You are correct in there being too much spring though, however with the roller lifter valve train I ran I needed at least 250# on the seat and 700# opening to stay away from valve float through 7000rpm. (the triple spring set-up was good through 8500) Everything you've stated about the Jesels are true, I'm just saying my buddy that ran them is his 940hp NA single carbed ford 360 small block didn't see them last any longer than a std lifter....Now we'll keep in mind he turns 10,400rpm with over 1" of lift and runs 380# on the seat. Just a little more "radical" than our boat set-ups:rolleyes:

JB;
I made 900HP at 6600 naturally aspirated on pump gas....a pick-up of 40hp from the old cam with 10 degrees less duration at 6000. Most 500" blower motors won't make that kind of power. Lately I've been breaking some parts, now I'm just trying something else that "might" live. I know a hydralic roller set-up will work, but really hate to give up 100HP. There is no-one harder on parts than sprint car guys and these radius lifters are living in their motors so we'll see...it should be interesting.

I assume that you are running a mechanical lifter. Would running one of the rev kits help? These are the ones that move a spring from the head to the lifter.

I run a 540 in my drag car and occasionly street drive it. My cam and springs are similiar to yours (290, 312 @50 885, 805 on a 114 center line. Springs are 350 at the seat and 1010 open. I originally had several Comp Cam lifter failures. I switched to Beileve It Or Not... Iskies.

No problems since. 250 passes and about 1000 street miles

I used to manage a speed shop and sold lots of these lifters and never heard of a failure.

Very similiar design as Jesel but a lot cheaper and don't require additional machining ( $ 475.00 Set)

302SR1;

I've been hearing the same thing from several people about the Iskies, could be something there. By the way that is a THUMPER you have in your 540..it has to sound pretty good, where do you idle 1500??

From what I understand, Roller lifter failures in boating and street occur from lots of low RPM operation (long idle zones, traffic lights, etc...). The lifter axle does not get proper oiling and the axle fails.

Iskies actually have a small bearing race on the axle itself. eliminating the need for as much oil during idle.

I think Isky might be on to something because like I said above, I would have at least a half a doze failures with other brands with the time I have on the Iskies.

With all due respect and aside from all this other talk about other lifter manufacturers, I am still very intrested in how the Schubeck radius lifters perform and endure in the marine engine environment. If these radius lifters work, Joe Schubeck is going to really have something HOT! You can check out his stuff at: www.Schubeckracing.com