Goldman Sachs

Regardless of the reason, I'm really down after hearing this. Kip and Mike were always very accessible and helpful when I called for advice or a product. They still came across like a family-run company from that perspective. I had one color on my rear seat reupholstered locally and told the upholsterer I was going to see if Checkmate still had that material in stock. He laughed and told me to play the lottery if they do. Well, I wound up playing the lottery. Good folks. I hope they can make a comeback.

I own a checkmate and I am looking at buying another one(used now for sure) I like the brand. But I think the only way they would still be in business right now, is if 2-3 yrs ago they had started making a wakeboard boat line to compliment the CC line they started. We all know wakeboard boats are selling. If Checkmate would have leveraged their name on a wakeboard boat they would likely have sold a few. As a long time owner of a Checkmate performace boat I would have hated the compromise but it would have saved the company.

That is so true! I have been saying that for years and people look at me funny. Like they really drink Red Bull and Monster because it actually taste better then the competiton, or it "actually works" LOL! What a Joke. Pretty sad though

To bad they couldn't make a go of it in this economy. My first boat was a 15 ft. Checkmate with a 125 Evenrude, had many great times with it.

Very sad indeed! I like many others have owned and enjoyed all of my past Checkmates, our family has great memories of overnight stays throughout the great lakes, beach cookouts, etc, etc. getting into a few friendly races@!?..... Lets hope they can pull it off and beat the odds!!!!!

That's the problem today everyone wants to blame someone else. Today its all Obama's fault but before Obama it was all Bush's fault, before that all Clinton's fault. If we don't end all of this political hate this country will never rebound.

maybe it is just me but growing up Checkmate was a 16-21 foot sportboat, mostly outboard, and affordable to everyone. they were great boats but like MANY boat builders the size of the boats kept growing as did the price tag and the small boats went to the wayside. now they are all going belly up. I feel like if most of them had stayed true to what made them profitable in the first place they might still be in business. it seems to be the manufacturing equvalent of 'keeping up with the jones's'

There are so many angles to this thread. I worked at a shop in the early 90's that tried to specialize in the SO Cal Carrera brand. They added Checkmate to the line a year later. The 27' and 30' boats delivered were really solid, not flashy but well built built boats. Sorry to see them fold up, I'm sure they provided there repeat customers with a quality product.

There a alot of reasons why the performance boating industry is withering, #1 is the banks making it almost impossible to get 80%+ financing. It's hard to ***** about this as look at what happened after 2006.

As far as blaming the current president for where the economy is currently, get off your high horse and open your eyes. I was paying almost 6.00 bucks a gallon for diesel when Bush was in office. Premium gas was 5.50 a gallon. The economy went to hell in a hand basket when the " conservative" Bush was in office. I never cared for Bush, but the mess we are in cannot be put on his shoulders either.

Our government needs a complete overhual. They are all liars, theives and could care less what the condition of the US will be when they pass.

Just asking, opinions as to do you think current ownership maybe had something to do with the failure. Rumors not mine but a couple dealers did not get their motors as per order & paid up front from Checkmate.

Also Sea Ray Industries ( Brunswick) bought failing Baja back in the 90's under the same ownership when boat selling was good for everyone? Maybe a pattern here, I don't know.

Heck Malibu and Mastercraft are still selling 1000 + boats each a year at 80 k to 150 K plus Yamaha jetboats are selling 2000 boats a year at 40 K to 68 K per year. New Pontoon boats are on fire, some builders can not keep up - go figure.. Certain boats are still selling strong.

On the mark!!

:party-smiley-004:
Don't blame the President? When you occupy the top leadership position, then fail to lead, who should be blamed? I think Obama is more in love with being the Pres. than doing the work.His record speaks for itself. Checkmate Boats is just another casualty in the destruction of the middle class.

The statements in Matt's article were spot on.

I was surprised by many of the comments the past few years on the lack of financing.
It's rather obvious why banks are hesitant to offer the same, dumb deals they did last decade. Many of the folks that bought those boats went underwater as soon as the bubble bursted. As is evident by the sheer number of repossessed boats up for sale the past few years, many of the folks you thought were successful last decade, were merely cashing out on their house appreciation. HOUSE AS ATM. If that wasn't available, people found it easy to obtain financing that was initially cheap, with little to no money down. I discovered this many times at boat shows. At one show, I saw a Formula on sale, a list price equivalent to most middle class houses. The payments offered in BIg, Bold letters, were about the same as those on a small family sedan.

The powers that be are not interested in financing the whims of fancy of an unstable middle class. Their rather recent experience of how people react when the sky does fall mans that if they do relax lending a bit, it will not be for a luxury item that will plummet in value steadily. Cars? Yes. Not boats. We've seen people that were paid excellent wages in manufacturing laid off, then called back at half or less what they used to make. I've seen an increase in larger corporations training people in India, Mexico, and other areas to do jobs in areas like customer service, engineering, and manufacturing. I recently ended a relationship with one firm prematurely do to this practice. One department, supported 85% by defense contracts, having their employees travel overseas to train their eventual replacements. It sickened me to the point of burning bridges.

It's inevitable that when casual bow riders run $50,000 to more than $200,000, performance-oriented boats in the smaller sizes will dry up. This is an era of more work for less pay and benefits. Luxury items are cut first, and boats are first on the list. Pontoon sales, some fishing boats and center consoles, they do well because they are in a completely different market, not to mention price range. Obviously, boats like those are far less expensive to own, and they don't have a track record like the performance boats do. The comparisons between used 32-35 foot boats and new single-engined performance models is valid as well. Most of the folks that looked at a smaller Checkmate couldn't afford to buy a single Mercury Racing engine 1100 or 1350 for cash, much less two, or the boat to mount them in.

This is not new stuff by any means. There's a very valid reason that from the 60's onward most middle class boat owners had Bayliners, pontoons, Glastrons, whatever. They didn't own new Formulas or Cigs, because they couldn't afford them. My first boat years ago was an 18" Larson, and I put down 25% cash, and had a 5 year loan. Not a big deal. Last decade, some people making $50 grand a year were buying $100,000 plus boats with 20 plus year loans. Not a recipe for financial or boating success. It is what it is.

[QUOTE=4bus;3929479]Wow, more blaming of others.....why not focus on what you can control. Change or improve your financial situation so you can afford the things that you want. Can't afford to heat and cool your home, buy something more efficient. I live in NY which is much higher than your area, and my utilities are not nearly that high. Gas too much for your boat, maybe consider finding something a little smaller than that giant Black Thunder, wtf? If your friend can spend money on boating and buy something nice for the kids then guess what......he can not afford to own a boat, plain and simple. Your post says democrat all over it, yet you are blaming a democrat. Don't expect a politician to make things easier for you, unless you are on welfare.


Perhaps my rant wasn't clear but I was addressing the rapidly rising cost of energy and how it relates to ordinary people. The current administration's energy policy, if you can call it that, is based on conservation and restricting supply. The president's energy secretary is on record saying that we need to have prices on gasoline equal to Europe's. Our president himself has said that he has no problem with 4.00 a gallon gas. He has restricted drilling on federal land, offshore, and prevented the Keystone pipeline from being built. He has raised the mpg standards on autos to the point that we will all be driving 4 wheel motorcycles soon.

I don't recall saying anything about my income but you say that I shouldn'y worry about the things I can't control and if it gets to the point I can't afford them, I should just sell my hose and boat. Well I happen to like my lakefront house with the Malibu Ski boat in front and I like my Black Thunder and I might even upgrade if I get the sense that oil prices have stablized. I don't want to have to give them up because of incompetent a$$holes in Washington. Many people have already had to give up boating already because of the cost.

+10

The energy policy may not be the greatest, but we are on track now to be the largest producer of oil in the world. We actually exported more than we imported I believe last year. (net exporter status). People that use diesel would know this at the pumps, since diesel fuel is a prime export for the US now, as other markets pay a premium for ours. It's precisely because oil is high that this country has come back so far in energy. The energy sector has been creating jobs, and record revenues for some states. As we saw after 2008, too low a price and they turn off the spickets here.

People would naturally gravitate towards single engine and smaller boats if the gas pinch was that severe. However, it's the huge engines that have been selling briskly. Checkmate's problems would not vanish if gas were $2.50 a gallon. The mpg requirements have been going up for decades. One of the costliest things in smaller boats was done last decade, mandating the catalytic converter. That blew out the venerable 3.o 4-cylinder engine, but also left the door wide open for outboards.

Stable oil prices are in the range of $70 to $100. Less than that hurts, more than that hurts. Obama actually wants the Keystone pipeline, and I suspect it will be finished sooner than later. Again, if oil goes too low, nobody wants to produce tar sands oil, none of which is destined for the US markets anyway. After the Keystone pipeline is built, gas prices will go higher throughout the Midwest part of the country. What makes a huge difference in the entire cycle is how much people are earning, and whether they earn more each year. That has been an enormous problem for 15 years now.

Rite on with that.they all should tar and feathered.

I think this is my favorite post because most turnament ski boats and many high end pontoons ARE in the same price range as single engine performance boats, and they are still selling. Living here in Bucyrus and watching truck loads of Baja's and Checkmate's leaving town in all directions on a daily basies makes it hard to believe that the last one standing cannot make a go at it. I guess we need a good country song like Pontoon, or more 007 movies with speed boats to make the sport COOL again.

I think you missed on that one, I have done a few poker runs with Patryacht and he is one of the most down to earth level headed people you will ever meet.

I didn't make my comment based on meeting him in person and doing a poker run with him. I made my comment based on the outlandish statements he made on here. In person it sounds as if he concentrates on things he can control, and doesn't blame others for things he can't have?

My point isn't about the details, blame game, situation....I just don't care. Again, find a way, persevere, and take ownership of your situation. Having a negative outlook and blaming others will not find you success, and if you are already successful that bitterness can end it quickly.

This = + Any moron can get caught up in AM talk radio and if dumb enough can be swept up in the BS that constitues this waist land. In my honest opinion anyone that follows ANY radio talk show host is an idiot, or rather mediot. Trust me, Rush is the biggest sell out in the modern day Mediotage. I listened to this wind bag when he had one station under his belt and was begging for the republicans to court him in 1989. Bush senior let him in and the morons that have followed ever since could just as well have been liberals. He didnt care at the time, just wanted the following / money.

ANYONE that is tied to one of the prostitude political parties is a moron in my book. For the guys that jump in here and try and rewrite HISTORY, we ( I) am not a moron. WE LIVED IT, WTF are you trying to do? DO YOU REALLY THINK EVERY IS AS DUMB AS YOU ARE?

Take your BS back to the dumbasses that might have a chance of being incoherent during the mid to late 2000's. Blame Democrats, Republicans etc. Neither one gives a **** about you or I. Neither one gives a **** about my Sons or your sons either.

Seems that the moron republican sheeple have taken to the internet lately. To prove my point, how many of you sheeple bought in to GB R being a conservative?

The problem is no longer with financing. For the past two years I can get anyone bought that had at least a 600 credit score and a job. Remember this is relevant to what they can afford however the financing has opened up. I have a new bank that plans on doing a credit score of 550. I believe the banks have opened up and are trying to help now. I have had only one person I could not get financed so far this year.

You're right, financing is not the issue. What's different, is that the requirements are different, probably about the same as they were, say, 15 years ago. Money down, good credit, reasonable debt to income ratio. Boats are also competing with housing nowadays, not to mention folks have kids and maybe college to pay for. Not much different than when some of us older guys were growing up.

50 years of reckless spending? I don't think so.

I hate to turn this into a political thread, but the middle class is being decimated by socialism. It doesn't work. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Michael

Ask Sea Doo how their boats are selling?

Do you have year to year sales figures to back up this rosy picture? I find it hard to believe anything is "on fire", when boat builders are going belly up. The Los Angeles Boat Show was a ghost town this year.

Michael

I can tell you this. Pontoons are on fire. The two brands I sell are 6-8 weeks out. If you didn't block off production spots earlier you won't see boats for two months. Also glass below 30k is on fire. Fishing boats and outboard bow riders I can't keep in stock.

Not sure where you got the 50 years of reckless spending from ? I was talking about the reckless spending that occurred prior to the housing/banking collapse i.e. borrowing against mortgages and 401's to buy material toys.

It could well turn out that way I agree. But the MIddle Class started the slow downturn early last decade, and din't realize they were falling off a cliff until the housing and financial markets went bust. Those that went on housing and home equity refi binges lost out big, those that went unemployed got the double whammy. The impact was sudden. Real wages had been dropping for some time, and spending was butressed by credit and leverage.

Socialism had nothing to do with last decade's failures, and there were many of them.

The last few years have been stagnant for a variety of reasons. Corporate profits are huge, cash hoards are huge, middle class wages have declined further still. No question that the policies the last few years haven't helped anyone but big business mostly. Housing is rebounding due to the massive Fed buying, and the low prices. Prices this year have definitely risen, and I think the middle class is wise to concentrate on that rather than expensive boats.

I have no idea what income levels we're talking about, probably a wide range of between $75,000 and perhaps as high as $300,000 or so. Hard to say. But housing is recovering inch by inch, people are buying new cars to replace old ones, and just about everything else has gone up in price. Wages? Not so much. Look to the auto industry wage changes to get an example of people that no longer consider $100K boats a necessity.

Needless to say, the policies and reckless behavior of the last almost 15 years have set back the middle class and kept them there. This might explain why extremely expensive boats sell well now, and the bottom ranges do not. I think it will continue for some time.

I think many of us boomers are heading into their retirement boats ;) Cheap to maintain, not that expensive. You might even be seeing some replacement boat buying going on from Hurricane Sandy? I even know some that were reckless in boats and housing, and are now back in both games, albeit at a much lower price point.

Also have to add another little tidbit, which I think is certainly germane to this thread. Outsourcing. As another company was gobbled up by a large conglomerate/defense contractor, a new environment has been revealed. This is an environment whereby people are flown overseas, to train their new replacements. India's always a good guess. They've been doing this in earnest for more than a decade, so it's second nature to the company.

Customer support, coders, IT staff and support, logistics, even process development and tech writing. Almost all of these jobs were done by mostly middle class people, some in the higher income ends, almost all non-union. Every single company does this, or will. I have to be a little upset when companies that rely directly on government contracts do it. In fact, they do it in a larger percentage. It's more than a little disconcerting when companies that receive a large share of their revenues from the US government, outsource those jobs to countries like India, and still make more money year after year.

Those former employees will not be buying a Checkmate either.

OK, so who's heard about Hustler getting involved with Checkmate? It's been a rumour, and talked about on the Checkmate forum for a week or so now. Some of the guys wanting parts have been phoning almost daily. For a while there was no answer, then one guy got an answer for Hustler boats and now it's Checkmate again. Sounds like the doors are either open again or will be soon. Us Checkmate guys are thrilled the brand may not be dead yet.

Not to burst your bubble of hope but Hustler did the same thing when they were trying to acquire Fountain when they were up for grabs.

One thing to consider, if Hustler isn't selling boats like gangbusters then why take on another line if they suffered from slow sales also. Miami Show is the only place I see Hustlers in Florida. Boats are beautiful but I don't see people buying them like Nortechs, OLs, Cigs etc.

very true

Check out this thread on Checkmate forums. Look at post #56 where I start posting. Doug Smith and his daughter ripped me off for $48K, and I'm not the only one. Economy didn't kill Checkmate, old fashioned GREED did!

http://checkmate-boats.com/forums/sh...t=26877&page=6

Note the 43 punisher had a 75k price drop last week (249k now) so maybe if they sell it they might be able to deliver the 3 motors to Randy!

The 43 is owned by the dealer who bought it. Checkmate has already been paid. They just don't believe in paying anyone else.

WOW, that is BS, Wildman! I hope you get your money back. Seems to be a lot of unsavory characters in the boating industry.
Good luck-

But having a negative view of everyone and everything they think is cool? Well, as long as you control what you can control I guess huh.....