Poker Run Format - should it be changed?
 

When I first started doing Poker runs back in the early 2000's the format used to be slowest boats first followed by the faster classes and the big cats last. Because of the huge head start the slower classes would still arrive at the first card stop way ahead of the fastest boats. We never had a single incident in our Poker run until the format was switched around 2009 - for safety reasons. Now we've had two terrible wrecks at racing speeds here on Cumberland in a few short years with tragic consequences.

I realize that on paper it sounds safer for the fastest boats to not have to pick their way through a field of slower boats but in practice with the filed now inverted the start of many Poker runs have become flat out trophy dashes for bragging rights to the first card stop. It seems to me that this totally encourages the higher speeds on the first leg from which there is no walking away if something does go wrong. No one wants to be a kill-joy, including me, but nothing is a bigger kill-joy then having a tragedy at your event. We've now had two here on Cumberland.

I realize that these two great guys passed doing what they loved but we need to figure out how to run these events and have everyone continue to do what they love for another 30 years. Something needs to change before they authorities change it for us, if it's not already too late.

Was the slower boats first format better? What else can we change to prevent incidents?

Poker runs shouldn't be treated like races. If you wanna race get on a race circuit. Seems to me most poker runs in the boating works have lost the true spirit of a poker run. Go to a motorcycle poker run and check that out. Always a charity cause and people cruising for the sake of cruising.

I'm all for speed and going fast but there is a time and place for everything and I believe boats are so much faster now that poker runs present a special challenge in a lot of traffic in a small area.

Big power + fast hull + ego = ridiculous speeds at poker runs. Eliminate one.

For me, the first part is easy to answer... slower boats first isn't better. It only makes the water worse for the fast guys and navigating around boats moving at less than half the speed you are running is no fun either. Add to that the fact that I'm one of the slower boats. I don't want someone going a buck fifty running up on me.

Maybe it wasn't the best choice of threads in which to bring it up, but someone nailed (at least part) of it in another thread today. Two of the major differences between PR's and races are a closed course vs. non-closed and safety regulations vs. virtually no regulations. It sounds as if both came into play in the most recent event... maneuvering around a non-participating boat and running at blistering speeds without the protection or presence of a canopy/capsule, restraints, etc.... I would throw in mandatory driver training as well. I'm not saying that lack of training caused the most recent accident because I have no idea. However, I think we could all agree that there are plenty of guys with fast boats in PR's that don't have a lot of seat time... especially running fast in rough water with lots of traffic.

So we get back to why we have PR's in the first place. I've been doing this since the early 2000's and started because they were charitable and fun. We ran 50 MPH back then and had a blast. There are some local/regional runs that have maintained that flavor, but it seems the larger runs have been taken over by the "big boys" with something to prove. Maybe organizing a "shootout" on a closed section of the lake in conjunction with more of these runs could lead to less competition when the assortment of boats sets sail in the PR. Do it on Friday afternoon, crown a champion, and reserve Saturday for good times and safe boating.

Totally agree with Marginmn, not so completly agree with ICU. And that is about the bike runs, They to, and do, have un safe riders at 'some'. Not getting into a pissing match, just saying if anyone puts on a gathering of like gear heads, the rubber or props or what ever get turning real fast when one wants to 'show' up another. Its called Egos! :)

I have been on smaller local runs where everything one starting at once. And the faster out of the gate you were the cleaner water you have.
I can see how the slower boats out front could be better suited as they would have somewhat cleaner "no washing machine wave" waters versus being at the back of the pack and giong thru everything in front.
The larger boats should be able to handle that 'wash', but it sounds like the latest tragedy was influenced by the wakes :(
So then the smaller boats in back get the wash machine yet have the power to 'catch' up. This is just an observation, mainly on my own part of expereince.
This whole things sucks, but like you said that at least they were doing what they wanted to do and not out on some street where someone else tooks thier lives!

So I guess in the end, I really do not have an idea on how to 'fix' the issues of crashes.
Well, unless the promotors set speed limits and or boundaries on how close you can run next to another boat.
But then you have to have staff to patrol, monitor and radar all the time. Then there is the whole How do you enforce it? You gonna speed out there and catch them? That is an even higher risk. Radio ahead at the card stops and disqualify them is all I can think of.

Best of luck, and RIP to those, and prayers out to the family and friends effected by this latest accident!

I hate to say this, but:

Same thread.
Different tragedy; different year. :(

These events themselves will be their own demise.
RIP to those who have passed. I do not mean to offend with this post.

Here is a thought - since speed is a function of time and distance, and you know the distance for each leg, simply announce a minimum time to complete a leg (i.e. if first leg is 30 miles and you think 120 should be the max speed, announce that anyone arriving in under 15 minutes from when the flag is dropped for that leg will be disqualified and bounced from the run). Similar to what the old open-road rally races used to do...you could even incorporate a new contest - have several classes, let each boater choose a class, have each boater sign in at each stop (show their number when passing a safety boat), and then award winners in each class that comes the closest to a perfect time without going over in any leg. That brings the first mate/navigator/whole boat into the contest and lets them be involved (instead of just the driver).

Good idea, but won't work.
There is no timing in Poker Runs. No one trips a light.
You can go balls out to the no wake buoys, and then stop and wait for your "time" to catch up.

How about no blast off or staggered start. Just card stops manned from a start time to a finish time. Then everyone meets up that evening to compare hands. We had great success with that on our lake this year. I'm truly sorry for the loss of the two gentlemen as I knew neither personally.

First let me say condolences to the Family of Brad and Jeff. I only met Brad for a short time at Loto this year and he seemed like a very passionate and great guy. RIP

A format change could help but also proper safety equipment requirements for higher speed groups.

One format change could be to not have a organized "start" they leave when they leave and can go to any of the card stops first. That being said I am a huge fan of the organized start. Its a big part of what I like about the Poker Runs. Sitting there waiting with all the fast boats and taking off together is a real thrill.

I have always been surprised that more people or any people for that matter don't wear helmets and proper life vest when traveling these speeds. Its rare that you even see people in proper lifeline vest but I have never seen someone in a poker run with a helmet, and not sure why? I am assuming that neck and head injuries are a big deal when crashing at speeds over 100mph. The right neck support, life jacket, and helmet would for sure help. I think its more of a social issue then cost issue. I think guys have a hard time using proper equipment unless everyone is doing it or its required, nobody wants to be seen as a pu$$y. clearly everyone that can afford a boat that goes over 100mph can afford the right safety gear.

I have personally gotten crap about wearing my lifeline instead of a regular life vest or none at all. I ignored that and wore my vest anyway but pretty sure I would not be the only guy wearing a helmet in a boat with 3-4 other guys not wearing one, I would never live that down. But the reality is if I was in a high speed accident and was the only one with a helmet and proper life vest then I am sure the others would not be giving me **** from the hospital. The real question is why are guys that want to use proper safety gear made fun of? I would feel way more safe in a boat going over 100mph with the right gear. Mostly because I have already had so many close calls that I figure its a matter of time before I am in a accident. I want enjoy the thrill of the speed and the sport but I want to have the best chance of not getting seriously hurt if something goes wrong, which eventually it will.


Change comes from frustration and clearly we are all frustrated (understatement) with these horrible accidents. Hopefully thru this experience we can make some changes to improve the sport and the safety of the sport.

MP

Couldn't have said it any better.

I have been on on poker runs where theres a fast pace boat you dont pass him 100mph even 125 impresses most people watching, its funner to run as a safe group then to worry about blowing over or running in to someone. If it narrows down in a turn or curve there should be a spotter or someone to let everyone know ahead that there is no one parked in the middle of traffic.

We were at the Lake Cumberland PR for the first time this year. The tragedy was heart wrenching to come up on. The "rule book" that was handed out had course information, rules for the PR, suggested contacts, etc. Very well thought out but the simplest of rules were not enforced. The rule book stated that all participants were to wear PFDs during the PR, if no compliance they will not be given cards at the stops AND will be disqualified from the event. We observed many participants not wearing PFDs and receiving their cards anyways, unfortunately this was after the tragedy. PFDs do not curb the speeds but safety and speed need to go hand in hand. Suggestion: It seems that once there is a card stop the field single files in and single files out, so why not hand out the first card at the start single file and away you go to the next stop? The flag drop starts are not in the best interest of a "non-race" event, that is if we want to be able to participate in any PRs in the future.

This is the same as this year at Desert Storm......different outcome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brBTPnREiKA

Control the speed. 10 years ago there wasn't production boats/engines (Merc 1350) going 150+
More problems are going to happen because more boats are being made that have incredible top speeds.

Set a speed limit. Maybe a percentage of the boats top speed. WOT is when the problems happen.

I think it's overall much safer for the most of the poker runners fastest first. My first runs at Cumberland were the fastest last. It made me squirm as then I was in a 25 foot v. I would have to watch in the front and in the back. Boats coming from the back at double your speed was really really bad. Made my wife very uncomfortable and me sweat a lot more as the driver. I think speed runs on a closed course like Loto are the answer at Cumberland. A random start poker run coupled with the speed runs will satisfy the spectators and allow for safer competition.

I think the key here is keeping this fun and a show of power and beauty is what guys like me are wanting to see... at 160mph ....all you are is a blur... I prefer to shake your hand and introduce my self and ogle & dream at your fiberglass rocket... Please let us learn from this is all I got to say...

I went to a Poker Run in 2002 that you lined up by your numbers and idled past a houseboat every 30-60 seconds. They handed you a card and a map of stops that you could hit in ANY order. It seemed weird then but makes sense now.

It is inevitable that PR’s which are really supposed to be fun runs and not races to the finish will eventually be controlled by the authorities because we have not been able to put in our own safety (speed) controls.

I agree with SkiDoc and my wife will not go on a PR with me as she/we had the chit scared out of us with other boats passing to close and out of control. That’s not what I call fun when you’re sweating out a ride and in fear of others.

I was at the run and participated in it this and several years in the past. It was a shock to come around that bend and see the boat sitting there it brought my girlfriend and sister in law to tears when we were told that atleast one of the men didn't make it. And as we were heading back just idling in shock we saw them on the shore performing cpr on one of the men. I have only done the Cincinnati poker run once which that year we had to help a friend after he put his 32 skater on its side and was ejected from the boat from a cruiser wake, and I have done the Lake Cumberland run several times. So I do not know how any other runs are done across the country. I truly think things definitely need to change at lake Cumberland. I read a report before the run that it attracts 30,000 people to the lake for that weekend, more than 4th of July labor day or memorial day.

Now this year we sorta cheated and went out to watch the fast guys and then jump in the pack when our group came around, I felt we were at a safe distance away but I could not tell you how many people were out too far trying to get a front row seat or the idiots on sea doo's cutting across the water while the run was going on. One boat had to turn out of the way of to avoid hitting a sea doo .

Its only a matter of time before a crash happens near the spectators and a whole group of people gets killed.

Could they stagger the starts 20 minutes apart as opposed to 5 minutes?

Could they tell the fast guys to run 2 or 3 at a time versus 6 or 7 ?

Could you announce the start time to the public yet delay the start to get people out of the way?
I am in no way an expert on any of this and don't intend to offend anyone with my opinion I am just a guy who has and old boat who likes to go look at the newest fastest boats that come to our home lake and want to see every one come back to the dock safe at the end of the run and have a good time.

I guess the current format is safer for the slower boats but they need to do something to address the fastest of the fastest. We've tried letting them run as fast as they please on courses open to the public but that does not seem to be working out very well. If they were to take out a spectator boat I cannot imagine how bad the fallout would be for the entire sport. At the speeds they were running Saturday anything could have happened.

I brought up this issue (super fast speeds) after the Desert Storm on a different site and half wanted to sensibily talk about it and the other half just wanted everyone else to ignore the situation, well some things you can't ignore, my feelings are in these narrow smaller lakes the only way you're going to control the speeds are with pace boats, now when you're out on the open water (ocean) it's a little different, but to really to keep everyone safe we've got to slow things back down to a reasonable speed, is it really that important to get to the first or second card stop first, JMO.

The bottom line is if there is speed, there is danger. Higher speed equals increased danger. The only rule that mitigates this is and idle only poker run - then no one would participate.

Hmm sounds familiar.

for you newbies click here and notice the dates
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/g...ns-racing.html

I can not believe how much crap i have taken for my views on this and it keeps coming around

We had a safe TOPPS Poker Run the same day in Galveston Bay. No one hurt or injured. No boats damaged. We only had a few 100+ boats with the rest 50-100 mph.

As I see it, as long as there are no speed limits, there will be competition at these events. Boats will get continuously faster proportionate to the $$ of the owner. Wakes have been cited for the last several cat blowovers I've read about and at high speeds on a non regulated course you will have unexpected wakes.

My suggestion is to formally enforce a speed limit for the main poker run and disqualify anyone over the limit. One of the helicopters could carry an "instant on" doppler speed gun and clock boats that look too fast, like cops do us in our cars. And if there is enough interest (read support or $ for it) have a marked off course for speed runs as we do for the Texas Outlaw Challenge. If there is no speed course there is to be no racing. Lets face it, its called racing when boats are neck and neck trying to get somewhere first.

Trust me lawyers and insurance companies are watching .....The clock is ticking ....... the end is near.... you run a poker run NO INSURANCE..You are self insured the Lawyers love that, and most succesfiul guys will not put there money and businesses at risk without insurance

Another big poker run has called it quits this year and more to come

Promotors do not want the exposure or the lawsuits (Just ask me I will tell you I have been there and done that )

A lot of really good points here. I raced Super V Lite, Super V and Super Cat for many years. Had incidents on the race course, got injured and recovered. I run a high speed CAT 3 to 4 days a week over 100 all the time. I was in the front row of Desert Storm a few years back and I believe it was the most dangerous thing I have ever done in boating and 10x more dangerous than anything that I had ever done in a race boat. I took off with the first couple of boats, pulled away with a 5 or 6 boat pack of "leaders" and after about 2 minutes and around the first turn, throttled back, pulled to the side and just let everyone go....I almost got hit 3 or 4 times by guys on both sides of me.

I don't know how you "speed limit" these events. Guy's with the faster boats generally want to run their equipment to their limit, and that's one of the primary reasons that they attend. I also think that the faster boats and faster speeds are a big reason that the better attended Poker Runs get so many attendees. Even if you propose a speed limit, what is the enforcement and what are the consequences?. I am not aware of anyone ever being penalized in a Poker Run for running outside of event guidelines. At desert storm, they tell you that if you have back seat passengers, you can't run over 100 MPH yet every year we see boat after boat with back seat passengers clearly going 100+ and nothing is done about it.

It used to be pretty rare for boats to have the capability of achieving 160+ mph speeds, now we have a large fleet of bigger CATS all across the country that can achieve those speeds, and a lot higher. I am friends/acquaintances with at least 4 Guys that have newer Skaters that can run over 180, basically large drag boats, and NONE of them are interested in racing the boats (appropriately since they are not race boats), they are purpose build "biggest dog" Poker Run boats or LOTO boats. If you told these Guys they could attend your Poker Run but could not run over 120, they simply would not show up in my opinion. My boat does not run 180 but if you told me I could not run over 120 mph I would not show up, I would stay at my local lake and run how I wanted to run.

Can't compare these events to a Motorcycle Poker Run - the participants still have to abide by posted speed limits - no speed limits on the waterways where there events / accidents took place.

I don't have solutions, or even suggested solutions that I believe would work so I am not going to be of much help except to say these event's, which clearly are not anything like real races have absolutely evolved into "racing mentality" as far as the approach,, who is going to get to the "first stop first" is mostly what people talk about before the event. That leads to sustained speeds of 150, 160 and higher and a requirement to go as fast as the lead boat. We have seen that for years at Desert Storm, and other events where the water conditions are conducive to being able to do that.

I am actually amazed that we have not had many, many more incidents than we have had over the years.

It is a terrible loss - reading what everyone has written about these two passionate people sounds like they will be missed and were wonderful people.

One final comment - No one goes to jail for throttling back for a second or two if you are unsure about the results of wide open operation.....as I get older, I think about that more, and I do it more.

Marc what was the big run that called it quits?

3 incidents this year......all caught on video, all fast cats blowing up/over (My Way, DCB Desert Storm and now this one). First two caught a lot of heat, blame it on crossing wakes/cruisers and boats got wrecked but now with a double fatality it is on to the next level. When you had a double fatality at Smoke on the Water it was a step bottom/flip spin which is/was a whole other issue.

FPC caught a lot of flack for its extra safety fee/ safety crew and guys that wanted to run wide open.......I'll admit I argued that the safety crew was a false sense of security since boats on a big poker run could be 20 miles apart.....By the time the call goes out, anyone who got tossed in the water would have already drowned. Jackie made a good point, at least they would have had the crew and would have tried to save lives in the event of an accident.

Great post......thank you!

For those of you that don't know it, Marc (boatme) used to run the Smoke on the Water poker run - until a similar disaster ended the run and dragged he an the other organizers through years of courtroom hell. Sadly, the same is probably going to happen the folks at Lake Cumberland.

As for what needs to be done, Marc's previous post said it pretty well. I made an attempt at saying the same thing in this post:

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/g...-too-fast.html

Sadly, nobody listened to me either.

Here's the sad truth. There is simply no place to safely run a 150 MPH pleasure boat. Throw in a spectator fleet, and you have a recipe for disaster.

Very well said.

This was last year for Rock The Bay

What do you think the chances of the run on Lake Cumberland are for next year?

Don't know the solution but rules would mean nothing to a lot of these guys, so what you don't give them their card, they really want to say they ran out front and beat all the other boats and show how fast they can run. I was a passenger on a boat at SOTW in 2006, even before the crash at the first card stop that lives were lost at things were dangerous. Something ALOT of people forget is there are always some people out there that don't even know there is going to be a PR that day!!! At SOTW there were guys in fishing boats with little kids and pontoon boats out fishing and some watching when it started, when some of the faster boats went buzzing by them they were giving the finger and shaking their fist so they just happened to be on the same lake as the PR and had no idea why a pack of speed boats went flying by at warp speed. These guys were obviously skilled drivers but the wild card is they did not have safe water to go the speeds they were going and keep in mind mechanical failure at those speeds would be tragic too without safety capsules, divers and helo rescue crews etc.
I was building a car to run in the silver state classic back in the late 80's, I really wanted to go out and run flat out for 87 miles or what ever it is, they had virtually NO rules when it started. Just about the time I had my car completed around 1990 someone endo'd a stock corvette at a 140+ mph when a stock tire blew out and IF I remember right the guys wife who was riding with him was killed , the rules went from run whatever you want at whatever speed/class you can keep up with and no extra safety equipment to all kinds of safety rules, fire suits, roll cages, nitrogen in tires, etc, etc. They quickly realized that anyone with a fast car could go out there and run as fast as they could and kill themselves in the process and that the run would not sustain if they continued to allow it so the rules became very strict. They still have crashes and deaths once in a while even with good safety equipment but people do walk away from some pretty nasty crashes at speed there. Yes, it will kill participation at poker runs if they have to have the same exact equipment as a race boat that runs equivalent speeds but other than closing off courses, strict safety equipment and or impossible to enforce speed limits there will continue to be crashes/fatalities, no way around it, Smitty

It's all about the participant's spirit. A Skater with 3,400 hp with a driver and throttleman sure sounds like a race boat. Not many boaters can afford to buy and maintain 1,700 hp engines. The service intervals on these engines are very short. It needs to stop being an all out race to the first card stop. Short speed contests are fun but then back off and cruise. Let the smaller 80 mph boats run in front for awhile. A pace boat will not work as the boaters want to open them up at least for short bursts. If something must go then I say it is the inflated egos. The faster boats can settle who is faster with a short race between two boats. I have a smaller boat so I don't participate in poker runs but we do have some fun runs on Lake St. Clair and the Rivers and the Greats. They are handled as I stated. It's so hard to express my feelings right now. I do feel horrible about what happened and don't ever want to see that happen again......... :( BTW, the video is out there if you do a google search. I think the big poker runs are done. Maybe these guys will participate more in sanctioned racing where rules and safety measures are in place.

I understand bidpro excellent post but you cannot please all the guys all the time. Let 'em rip, and you'll please the fast crowd, and get the spectators hoping to witness "something cool" - I'm told a lot of auto enthusiasts go to races hoping to see a "great" crash. The end result will be no events except very expensive and highly regulated and NOT available to the general public. Or limit the speeds, save the lives and continue the sport available to the general public. Radar or laser timing units can be set up to measure speeds and disqualify the too fast boats. Boatme is right - I just asked a busy lawyer friend - the end could be closer than we think.

I fear that one day we will all be tied up talking about how we use to have these events called "poker runs"

The math is broken on big poker runs......

1. People with new boats are the life blood of poker runs, boats aren't selling like 2004-07 so attendance has dropped
2. Costs have skyrocketed from insurance, fuel to event fees
3. Locations are the same.....How many times can someone go to the Tiki Bar in Islamorada? Place was a dump for years, dockage is terrible (lots of rafting) and there is nothing to do, places like Key West can handle the crowds/more things to do.

A good poker run with overnight stays was $2000-3000 for me 6 years ago and I was a local to the events I attended. Boat had 6.2's so fuel was 180 gallons at most ($3 a gallon) and the boat finished every poker run it started so I didn't have a big repair after every run like some of these boats. Figure today a 38/525 powered boat would cost the owner $3000-5000 to do an event like Emerald Coast/Key West/Lake Cumberland assuming they drive the truck/trailer to the event and didn't start their trip from California!

So say a 4K average, 5 runs a year is 20K on top of the costs of owning/running the boat! Now add the safety issue and PR's could be easily crossed off the bucket list and save 20K doing it......

There is a member on here that PM'd me a few years back and told me to run a 1075 powered 40+ ft cat was costing him over 100K a year........he did it for awhile and switched to a much more economical boat and simply does fewer runs. He had been there, done that and didn't want to commit 100K a year to PR's anymore.

"A Skater with 3,400 hp with a driver and throttleman sure sounds like a race boat"

I think this is a common misconception....Not a race boat at all simply because of power and two person operation (Driver, Throttleman) - no canopy, no full time/part time occupant air system, no safety on the course, no "dunker" test to practice getting out of the boat in the event of an incident etc etc etc. Not even close to a race boat, an incredibly fast pleasure boat.

I can tell you 100% that the Driver / Throttleman (two person operation) typically produces an environment of less control, slower reaction to problems. I throttled actual Race (premier classes) boats from 1994 through 2006. In a pleasure application, and I would add in a lot of actual race applications two person operation increases the chance for error.