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525 EFI Valve Springs, Simple Question
There have been a lot of threads here lately about 525 top end maintenance. Let's just say that I trust Mercury's choice of springs and seat pressure and that I want to replace the springs on my 525 with stock springs and inspect the rockers. I will also do a leak down test first and will pressure test the headers. Should I just order the springs through Mercury or is there another way to get them? Seat pressure and all of the other technicalities have been discussed on the other threads. I just want to know where to get a stock replacement spring set and do this job myself. My engine has never missed a beat for close to 300 hours.
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i bet merc is triple the price, not sure if the 525 valve spring is the same as the 500efi,I know the heads are diff,but the 500 efi the comp 929's work good, im running mine up to 6000rpm with no probs,replace the keepers while your in there, the rockers should be fine
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Originally Posted by thirdchildhood
(Post 4204165)
There have been a lot of threads here lately about 525 top end maintenance. Let's just say that I trust Mercury's choice of springs and seat pressure and that I want to replace the springs on my 525 with stock springs and inspect the rockers. I will also do a leak down test first and will pressure test the headers. Should I just order the springs through Mercury or is there another way to get them? Seat pressure and all of the other technicalities have been discussed on the other threads. I just want to know where to get a stock replacement spring set and do this job myself. My engine has never missed a beat for close to 300 hours.
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Originally Posted by HyFive578
(Post 4204240)
I believe Teague Custom Marine sells the OEM springs as does BAM Marine. I'm going through the exact same process this winter and started one of the threads you're probably referring to. If you are going to go through the effort of replacing the springs, its worth having a conversation with some of the really knowledgeable engine guys before you just replace with Merc. parts. I've learned a TON this week about the 525 valve train and it's weaknesses; very eye opening. I won't regurgitate all of the technical stuff here... just suggesting its worth a conversation...
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I get my 525 springs from teague they are the same ones merc use,to do the job properly you need to check your installed height(valves are going to be pushed up a little in heads from wear)also check springs for actual psi some are a little weaker or stronger springs are made in batches,i am not aware of any better spring to use on the 525 head,we use the isky tool room or the comp 929 on most of our builds but we also have more installed height to work with and bigger valve pockets to work with
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One of the threads here identifies the Isky spring that is a dead cross to the Merc and also another Isky that bumps the seat pressure a tad. I dont have PN in front of me but that's the way I'm going when I'm ready.
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Isky 8005A is a direct replacement. I ran them all year no trouble
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There we go...direct replacement is Isky 8005A and increased seat version 8205
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TCM has the springs for about 60 to 65 % less than what Merc sells them for. I can not even buy them wholesale thru Merc to beat Teague's retail price. Those springs are from PAC for the 525. Anyways PAC will not sell you the springs out right. I tried hitting them up in person last year and no deal so I bet Merc and Teague are glad about that one. Teague does have a really great price on them but like everyone else I always try to see about getting the best price especially being a Marine Dealer.
I still think the springs that Teague gets is from PAC for the 525. |
I have 330 hr stock 525s with flawless performance so far so my ears always perk up when one of these threads gets going. I have a couple of comments and PLEASE find fault with me or correct me if I'm wrong.
1) Why not use the stock replacement springs directly from Merc Racing? What the spring price is about a grand instead of $3-400? Why is that such a big deal if you are getting the known exact replacement with 0 guesswork and I would think whoever the manuf is they might (just might) use an extra stage of quality control on springs resold by Merc Racing even coming off the same assy line. 2) Why change seat pressure, installed height, or any other spec from the Merc Racing recommendation? Its like when I was 17 souping up my 68 Cougar 302 engine. My father used to ask me how me and those speed shop counter jockeys knew so much more than Ford engineers getting paid $250,000 a year. Doesn't Merc build them to last as long as possible? 3) Lets get a true idea of hours on all our virgin 525 top ends. I have 330 original hours. I will start a new thread on this idea. |
Originally Posted by On Time
(Post 4204423)
I have 330 hr stock 525s with flawless performance so far so my ears always perk up when one of these threads gets going. I have a couple of comments and PLEASE find fault with me or correct me if I'm wrong.
1) Why not use the stock replacement springs directly from Merc Racing? What the spring price is about a grand instead of $3-400? Why is that such a big deal if you are getting the known exact replacement with 0 guesswork and I would think whoever the manuf is they might (just might) use an extra stage of quality control on springs resold by Merc Racing even coming off the same assy line. 2) Why change seat pressure, installed height, or any other spec from the Merc Racing recommendation? Its like when I was 17 souping up my 68 Cougar 302 engine. My father used to ask me how me and those speed shop counter jockeys knew so much more than Ford engineers getting paid $250,000 a year. Doesn't Merc build them to last as long as possible? 3) Lets get a true idea of hours on all our virgin 525 top ends. I have 330 original hours. I will start a new thread on this idea. |
Originally Posted by On Time
(Post 4204423)
I have 330 hr stock 525s with flawless performance so far so my ears always perk up when one of these threads gets going. I have a couple of comments and PLEASE find fault with me or correct me if I'm wrong.
1) Why not use the stock replacement springs directly from Merc Racing? What the spring price is about a grand instead of $3-400? Why is that such a big deal if you are getting the known exact replacement with 0 guesswork and I would think whoever the manuf is they might (just might) use an extra stage of quality control on springs resold by Merc Racing even coming off the same assy line. Because if you go to the time, effort and expense to change the springs, isn't it worth considering a better quality component? As far as assuming Merc's suppliers apply better quality control , that thought kind of went out the window with CMI. The bottom line (pun intended) there is that Merc. Racing dictated to CMI to make an inferior product to reduce cost. 2) Why change seat pressure, installed height, or any other spec from the Merc Racing recommendation? Its like when I was 17 souping up my 68 Cougar 302 engine. My father used to ask me how me and those speed shop counter jockeys knew so much more than Ford engineers getting paid $250,000 a year. Doesn't Merc build them to last as long as possible? Lasting as long as possible runs counter to Merc's strategy.. they are in the business of selling engines and more engines.. I don't think its a case of anyone being smarter than the Merc engineers; there are a lot of instances of these valve train components failing and this seems to be a common diagnosis of the root cause from some pretty reputable engine guys. 3) Lets get a true idea of hours on all our virgin 525 top ends. I have 330 original hours. I will start a new thread on this idea. |
Merc OEM for the kit of 16 that's just valve springs and retainer kit is $1730.22 cents thru retail. Like I said Teague sells the exact same (PAC - MERC) for a third of the price retail and my dealer wholesale price thur Merc is still a lot higher than Teague retail.. So if you have twins that's close to 3500 bucks just for valve springs and retainers ONLY, No labor either. . Now I know why people are getting out of boating.
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Originally Posted by BUP
(Post 4204404)
I still think the springs that Teague gets is from PAC for the 525.
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That is correct above ^^^ They have had it for years now. I was face to face with the owner of PAC last year and yes PAC - Merc - Teague they are but he (PAC) would not make any deals for me buying them straight from them.
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And let's face it...Merc doesn't make the springs they just create a specification that vendors bid to. Albeit there are likely quality requirements that Merc may audit to but once the vendor meets a first article inspection, and no field problems of significance to Merc are reported....it's dock-to-stock after that. We design and manufacture flight control systems for Boeing 787 and Airbus A350 among others, and we have a10X multiplier for spare parts.
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Thanks guys. That gives me a few options to look into and people to talk to. If I end up with any doubts I will buy OEM replacements through a dealer like Bam. This is the Mercury part from Bam's web site, $1,427
24-843081A01 SPRING/RETAINER KIT, (16 Per Kit) 5 $1,730.22 $1,427.44 |
I dont see how the 8005 or 8205 Isky springs, are direct replacements. I mean yes, they fit, but as far as pressures go, they would be a bunch higher, than what guys are stating the stock pac spring setup is.
Using the 8005A, with an installed height of 1.800, will result in 165lbs of seat pressure Using the 8205 with the same installed height will result in 185lbs of seat pressure. using the 8205 SP or Plus tool room spring, 195lbs of seat pressure. That is a world away, from what guys are claiming of stock spring pressures falling in around 110-120 at the seat. Without "up" retainers, man thats close to coil bind with the stock cam lift I'd say, esp if the valve seats never been cut yet. |
Originally Posted by Rbesola
(Post 4204400)
Isky 8005A is a direct replacement. I ran them all year no trouble
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I don't understand how any roller setup in a big block can conceivably run properly with 110 psi on the seat. I don't know what the over the nose is on the stock springs but having a controlled valve event that light on the seat seems impossible. If I owned one of these motors I would certainly set the valvetrain up with more spring pressure.
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OK, too many uncertainties here. I am leaning toward the kit for $1,427 from Bam if everything else looks good. My engine does not appear to suffer from any problems with valve float or bounce so why change to higher spring seat pressure if it's not needed? This will just increase stress and wear on the valvetrain and also parasitic drag. IMO.
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I just cant see dropping 1500 dollars on just valvesprings. If i had 1500 burning a hole in my pocket, id be pulling the heads and going thru them entirely, purchasing the springs from teague , and new rockers from crane or scorpion. Maybe some new lifters too. :D
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Originally Posted by thirdchildhood
(Post 4204629)
OK, too many uncertainties here. I am leaning toward the kit for $1,427 from Bam if everything else looks good. My engine does not appear to suffer from any problems with valve float or bounce so why change to higher spring seat pressure if it's not needed? This will just increase stress and wear on the valvetrain and also parasitic drag. IMO.
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Originally Posted by MILD THUNDER
(Post 4204639)
I just cant see dropping 1500 dollars on just valvesprings. If i had 1500 burning a hole in my pocket, id be pulling the heads and going thru them entirely, purchasing the springs from teague , and new rockers from crane or scorpion. Maybe some new lifters too. :D
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Originally Posted by sutphen 30
(Post 4204644)
or you put in longer valves,push rods,another set of valve cover gaskets to help clear the rocker set up.then you have a whole bunch of springs to choose from.just saying
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third child, I just recently talked to Eddie Young about this as I'm doing the top ends on mine. I wouldn't even consider buying the Merc parts for that kind of money, there are way to many better alternatives out there.
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Originally Posted by JohnAT
(Post 4204747)
third child, I just recently talked to Eddie Young about this as I'm doing the top ends on mine. I wouldn't even consider buying the Merc parts for that kind of money, there are way to many better alternatives out there.
Such as? Just wondering what he offered as a better choice. |
Any reputable machine shop can determine your spring rates. I just did two 900sc for $1400. Springs, retainers, keepers, and seals. I just did them in august and we've put 37 hard hours on them without any issues.
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Originally Posted by sutphen 30
(Post 4204640)
no uncertainties,,call Teague and save some money.they have the springs.
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Originally Posted by thirdchildhood
(Post 4204780)
I will call Teague about a direct replacement. Thanks.
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Wow baffling, you guys realize lifters, and rockers would last much longer with increased spring pressure and controlled valve events.
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Originally Posted by lil red
(Post 4204796)
Wow baffling, you guys realize lifters, and rockers would last much longer with increased spring pressure and controlled valve events.
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the set for the valve springs thru TCM - Teague is a tad under 400 bucks and or a tad under 28 bucks per one valve spring. Its cheaper by the set than one per thru them.
Then you need the valve locks @ 2.75 each and then the spring retainers at 3.75 each. They might be a tad lower for the spring retainers, I forgot and also forgot what the part #'s are. If I recall correctly they also work for the 600 SCi and the 700 SCi Also for an FYI Merc will not sell you 1 or 8 or how many ever valve springs - If going thru Merc you have to buy the whole set regardless, I already posted what that price was. . |
Originally Posted by On Time
(Post 4204797)
Please explain. Like said above I have not seen float with my stock 525s even at rev limiter.
Unless you have a Spintron you have no idea whats going on in the valvetrain. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_REQ1PUM0rY I had no idea my valvetrain was eating itself until I took it part and saw the damage. .....Secondly , not sure why anyone would pay so much extra money for the same product and the only difference is the box that says Mercury. Thats just throwing money away. |
Valve float is an extreme over exaggeration of a valvetrain problem. I'm sure you don't see valve float at 5000 rpm. My 360 I built when I was 16 with a $150 summit cam lifter and spring kit didn't float the valves until 5400 either....
Many issues are happening and causing small amounts of damage well before valve float comes into play. If you ran at 4800 most of the time the lifters and rockers would prob fail at 150 hours, if you ran them at 5500 they'd last 50 hours. Upgrade parts and put a real spring package, and real valves in those junk heads, raise the rev limiter and enjoy some real reliability. |
Its all fun and games till you bust a rocker and send needle bearings thru the engine. Right now the merc engineers are getting a good fluffing from some of you. But when you lose a motor youll be changing your tune about how "they know what they are doing"
Anybody worth a dam in the high performance world will tell you 120lbs of pressure on a hydraulic roller, with a heavy bbc valvatrain, is bogus. That is a not a RV cam in those engines. Stress and frictional loss so run super light springs? Poppycock. Nobodys sugessting 280 on the seat and 600+ over the nose here for that application. |
When you are on top you are bound to have haters. There seem to be a lot of Mercury haters here. If you are going to pick an engine builder then you'd better have trust in that builder. Would you take a Teague engine or an Ilmor engine or a SmithPower engine and try to second guess them as to their choice of parts and specs? If the Teague parts are truly identical to the original parts then I will buy from Teague. I'm not going to second guess Mercury Racing on valve spring height or seat pressure, especially on their most popular and successful high performance engine.
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They were only a home run to guys like you who have been lucky. The guys who had to blow their kids college fund on junk header replacements, broken valvetrain components, etc may look at them more of a bunt than a home run.
The 900sc engine was a solid roller deal that had a limited lifespan. Many guys over the years changed mercs recipe on them, made more power , and got better life from their engines. I have no "hate" for merc engines. I just dont drink the kool aid that they are some unicorn of marine engines. For petes sake they use crane cams, crane rockers, aftermarket rods , edelbrock cylinder heads, nothing mind blowing there. No point in discussing further. Your sold on mercurys setup. Good luck. |
No hate here either. 500efi is a great engine and I think merc hit a home run with. The 525 is a pos from every angle. I just can't understand putting a mediocre "might" live set of parts back in when it's well known it can be done better. If your going back with the stock springs make sure you do a new set of lifters and rockers at the same time. Weak springs may not have wrecked everything else in 300 hours, but might by 400.
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Originally Posted by MILD THUNDER
(Post 4204866)
They were only a home run to guys like you who have been lucky. The guys who had to blow their kids college fund on junk header replacements, broken valvetrain components, etc may look at them more of a bunt than a home run.
The 900sc engine was a solid roller deal that had a limited lifespan. Many guys over the years changed mercs recipe on them, made more power , and got better life from their engines. I have no "hate" for merc engines. I just dont drink the kool aid that they are some unicorn of marine engines. For petes sake they use crane cams, crane rockers, aftermarket rods , edelbrock cylinder heads, nothing mind blowing there. No point in discussing further. Your sold on mercurys setup. Good luck. |
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