496 Mag/HO Goodies
 

I just wanted to let everybody know that we are very close to releasing our 496 upgrade packages.

We have a naturally aspirated performance calibration with a new K&N style flame arrestor which makes approx. 445hp, then we have a package setup with CMI exhaust, filter, performance cal that makes approx. 470 hp, then we have a new camshaft, cal, CMI and filter that makes 525hp. Of course we then have a supercharger system that makes approx. 625hp, we have not finished the SC with CMI's yet, that is being tested.

We can also just modify the rev limiters or make changes to those who have unique applications such as aftermarket exhaust systems. We have exclusive rights to recalibrate the factory 555 ECUs and you should never do any mods to the stock motors without proper ECU recalibration, no matter what anybody tells you!!

Thanks,
Dustin Whipple

Cool,

I would say that with all the 496's out there that this will be a HOT item.

Any pictures available showing what the new 500 EFI system look like? I hope I'm right here, but isn't the picture on the web site the old style?

Thanks
Mark

What's included with the 445hp deal. Do I have to install an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and/or high flow injectors?

Hopefully this will work. I think this is a pic of the new system for the HP500EFI..

http://free.hotboat.net/gallery/Gear...es/Whipple.JPG

Oh Yeah,

Thanks Steamin' Rice, that is major sweet.

Mark

That 500 efi is sweet!!!!! Is that a new whipple system from Dustin or is it a system that has been around for awhile? Just wondering, it would look good on the Eliminator:D :D

YES DUSTIN IF IT WORKS AS GOOD AS THE KITS WE'VE USED IT WILL BE A TERROR !!!! :D :D

Dustin...what is your take on how the new hyperutectic (sp?) pistons will hold up with the new supercharger system?

Also, how do we get a hold of the new price list for the above mentioned mods?

Re: 496 Mag/HO Goodies
 

Just curious how were able to get the "exclusive rights" to recalibrate the factory 555 ECU? Who owns the code to the 555? Is it Merc or is it a 3rd party?

Do you have prices for the 3 stages and the supercharger?

Dustin any ballpark figures on how much the 445HP package will be? I was told their were two different ECU's used on the 496's one made by Motorola and the other by Delphi, is this true?

Kirk

Are these upgrade strictly for the 496mag/ho (425) and not the 496mag(375)?
If so are their any plans for upgrades to the 375hp version of this motor?

Sorry for the long delay, but prices will be available by friday I'm hoping. The SC'd engine comes with new injectors, the standard performance cals with and without exhaust utilize the stock injectors and stock pressures. We will have updates for both the 375 and 425, but 425 first.

The 555 ECU is developed by Mototron, which is a company owned by Brunswick, very advanced technology and has many more features than the MEFI 3 or 4.

As for 2 different ECU's, there is certainly 2, Mercury uses the 555 Motorola, while Volvo, Indmar, GM, etc. use the MEFI 4 ECU.

The new pistons are fine and strong enough for the abuse of a supercharger and or more power. They cannot take the detonation or temp that a forged piston can, but as long as the motor is not running lean or detonating severly, the pistons will hold up longer than other parts in the engine.

Thanks,
Dustin

Dustin:

Glad to hear of your 496 success. Considering the misfortune I had with my 6.2 setups, I was wondering if you had done additional testing with the new 496 applications especially in regards to the fuel in the oil/reduction of oil pressure situation I faced.

Joe

Hey Dustin,
just curious, how do you get to 525 hp from 425 hp without changing the regulator and/or injectors?
What is the current duty cycle of the injectors in the stock setup?
Possible erroneous info, but I've heard that they are already at or near 85% on the HO which would be borderline for any mods.
Thanks,
Dave
:confused:

ttt

Nordic heat,

Injectors are open quite a bit, but were increasing the engine efficiency with more spark and easier breathing. It does need additional fuel, but not a large amount. There is no question the 525 motor needs more, the stock injectors with stock fuel pressure cannot supply enough fuel consistenly or reliably.

Uncletoys, we've been testing for 12 months and there are no oil problems or fuel in the oil. As your situation was unique, fuel in the oil is caused by a problem with either running with the rings not sealing properly (especially dangerous in a forced induction application), an overly rich air to fuel mixture or severe detonation. Since we know the air fuel ratio was right on, as evident by the $10,000 (each) meters that we utilizied and the fact that the transom was clean, spark plugs were not fouled, etc. We know it was not detonating severly because the hypereutectic pistons cannot take it, they would crack, fail or something before almost any other piece in that engine. This leads us to the condition of the rings, if any of the rings are not sealing properly, then when in boost, the air and fuel can find it's way pass the poor sealing ring and over time, contaminate the oil. This should never happen instantly unless a ring fails completly. If the oil is so contaminated that oil pressure is falling, pressure should consistenly be down and not just fall instantly. Serious signs should be evident when oil is checked, it should be black, thin and have a fuel odor. If a motor is run under a heavy load (consequently, in high boost) consistenly, it's duty cycle is far greater than running without. So boats that are over propped or near full load should have the oil changed more often than standard motors and should be checked more frequently. When you ran one motor with an SC and one without, that puts tremendous load on the engine with the most power as it trys to carry the second engine. If the sealing is not great, this will cause a greater amount of dilluted oil because it has more cylinder pressure and fuel than the ring can hold. A stock ring with stock clearance can hold the pressure wihtout a problem.

Thanks,
Dustin

Hmm, that's interesting.

1) Facts: My rings were fine before the blowers. My rings have been fine for the past 25 hours since the blowers came off.

2) "If the oil is so contaminated…”??? Fact, the engine blew up. Fact, upon unbiased inspection, the second engine had enough fuel in the oil to cause the oil pressure to drop to a dangerous level. Fact, I had the oil changed three times in those 71 hours total time. Fact, a member of this board checked the oil for me when I filled up only a half a tank before the explosion. Considering I have shortened fuel tanks so the twins can fit in, what’s that, max two hours?

3) “When you ran one motor with an SC and one without,…”??? Fact, I ran it that way for a total of 15 minutes. From Windsor beach to just past the bridge channel entrance. Just long enough to figure out the SC engine had oil pressure problems. During that time we were breaking in a brand new engine, remember? So, I believe the tach never got over 2,500 rpm. I have a witness to that also if you would like to call and discuss – I believe you know his phone number.

4) Opinion – The 6.2 is not built to handle blowers. There’s probably way to much expansion and contraction from cold to hot etc. You should know this!

If I am not mistaken, the 496 is fairly similar to the 6.2 (certainly they do have the same hypereutectic pistons). Considering all of the above did happen, I just thought it would be interesting for those with 496’s to know to what extent you have gone to insure the “reliability, and durability."

Testing for 12 months sounds terrific at first blush. I would be more interested to know how many hours during that period, in the water or on the dyno or whatever. Did you test on multiple engines or just one. Did you test under different temperatures, such as the extreme heat at Lake Havasu. Did you do oil analysis.

My situation may or may not have been unique – I might never know for sure. What is certain is that my situation happened!

So how much MULA for the mods you listed Whip??? I may be very interested since I am getting just over 80 without any real mods (no labbed props and just a K&N flame arrestor).

Show me the money Jerry$$$:D

U.T......

Soooooo everyone's pointing fingers?? No one know's what happened?? What's the deal??:confused: :confused:

Tank:

Lot of conflicting expert opinion. The only thing I know for certain is I didn’t do anything wrong. A point Art Whipple conceded to me twice!

Dustin,
I am a little confused on the injectors. Does the 525 kit need injectors or not? You said, "there is no question the 525 motor needs more..."

Thanks for the info on the new products. I am putting twin 496HOs in our new boat.

Also - if we buy your recalibrated 555ECU do we have to give up our stock ECU in exhange? I would have no problem being an early test subject if I knew I had the original ECU to use as fall-back. I would be very hesitant to give up my stock ECU.

First off, this is not a pissing contest, but you need a bit more info.

Have you performed a compression check? You must understand that a supercharged motor has far more cylinder pressure than your stock engine. You have 6lbs of boost, richer air fuel mixture with more liquid, as well as a cool air charge because of the intercooler, not to forget to mention the motor is running at 100 degrees vs. 160 which creates denser air in the cylinder. If rings or anything else are somewhat suspect, the increased cylinder pressure will amplify the problem. This is the same as ignition or anything else that could cause problems, the problem is amplified with the increased cylinder pressure of a supercharged engine. So saying it's fine now does not mean it will pass a compression or leak down test with flying colors.

If you changed and checked oil so many times (which I truly believe you did), especially before an engine failure, how was there never a sign of gas if this was the cause of failure?

You stated that you were clearly watching oil pressure on both motors when the motor let go and you saw no signs of anything odd. I don't remember the exact words, but you were pretty confident that you were watching oil pressure. This leads me to believe this happenned in the last 15 minutes below 2,500rpm. this is very hard to understand since you never went full boost if you were at or below 2,500 rpm and oil was checked approx. 2 hours prior.

Too much contraction? I should know this? The motor has less heat variance than stock. The stock motor has a 160 stat and will vary from very cold to 185 degrees, the cold start depends on the water and air temp, without a thermostat and proper water flow, the temp varies less, between very cold to 120 degrees and will be more consistent between 105-120 than the stock thermostated engine. The hypereutectic piston has been around for years, GM utilized in the 96 and up 305, 350 and 454 engines in all the automotive/truck applications, we have never seen problems with these engines and we've supercharged thousands on thousands.

I'm glad you're concerned with our testing, but we've tested on multiple engines on multiple boat hulls on multiple dynos with multiple exhaust on multiple manifolds on multiple fuel systems on multiple intercoolers on multiple intercooler housing. These have all varied different water and ambient temps, different water pressures and manifold pressures, with multiple (8, one per cylinder) wide band, 6 wire air fuel sensors, multiple cylinder pressure transducers with cylinder combustion analysis. We've run them at high and low altitudes with again, the same as above. Also, to let you know, the motors, when there on our dyno during development, they run through a seriess of endurance runs just like Mercury or GM (although we cannot test 50 engines at the same time). We start by running the motors to get some programming completed, once thats' done we do endurance runs, first 30 seconds, then 1 minute, 2.5 minutes, 5 minutes, 7.5 minutes and 10 minutes at WOT. Each application is different and requires different development work.

If the 6.2 is not supercharger worthy, than the Scorpions and 350 mags would not be either as they all have the same pistons. I agree that if you were building from scratch, I would not choose all the stock parts, but the engine is by no means not worthy.

Now it's a different situation, but what about Mike Pyle's engines? You've talked to him at length and know the story, those engines were run with 10-16lbs. of boost with very agressive spark advances and tremendous engine RPM. Those were stock pistons and rings, stock gapping, they were never out of the block. Typically they ran av gas, but we also ran 91 octane which I filled up myself when tuning twice, Elsinore and Fresno.

Thanks,
Dustin

Todd,

The 525 comes with a new fuel system, sorry about the confusion.

As for recals, we recalibrate your factory ECU's, you can purchase new ones but they are a bit on the expensive side.

Thanks,
Dustin

Your first paragraph: Oh Dustin, this very much is a pissing contest. Except, we are both keeping it polite, professional, and factual, which the board always recommends (and I strongly agree). Reputations and a fair amount of money are at stack here, so personally, I’m taking this seriously!

Your second paragraph: Imponderable, therefore irrelevant.

Your third paragraph: I believe I was clearly watching the water pressure, as that is what you and Semper stressed. I don’t remember anyone warning me specifically about oil pressure. The last 15 minutes and 2,500 rpm? Sounds like you might be mixing things together. I’m not sure what you’re referencing.

Your fourth paragraph: As mentioned previously, I don’t have the technical knowledge to go toe-to-toe with you on engines. So I will refer Tyler Crocketts column in the August edition of “Hot Boat,” page 14, “Improving the 496.” I believe he is saying the 496 is not a supercharger candidate because of the pistons.
It would be interesting if we could get Tyler to come on the board and elaborate on his comments.

Your fifth paragraph: Impressive!

Your sixth paragraph: Tyler Crockett.

Your seventh paragraph: Not sure Mike (Cat & Mice) would appreciate being pulled into this. I certainly consider Mike a friend – but I also know you have a strong personal and professional relationship with him.

Maybe it would be helpful to our great and good debate (synonym for pissing contest) if you could keep your answers more on the simple side for me and directed more towards my specific questions - as I will for you.

Also, lets see if we can build on common ground. For example, we do agree on the following: My engine blew up. I am assuming you now agree that I didn’t run it out of oil. When checked by a competent and unbiased professional, fuel was found in the oil of the second engine causing the oil pressure to drop to a dangerous level. Your Dad did call me and offer to buy back the blowers after finding out about the fuel in the oil.

The disagreement lies with the amount of money I want vs. what your Dad offered. The tension you might be picking up to in my posts comes from the way your Dad ended our last conversation i.e. “Sue me.”

Politely, professionally, and factually waiting your response.
Joe

:rolleyes:

<sniff sniff> I am getting a strong smell of urine in here

Anyone else getting it?

Dustin,
Thanks for clearing up the injector requirements.

UT, i guess it's fair to say your opinion may have changed a bit since a couple months ago. at least on june 22 you were happy. doesn’t it suck the way boating goes. i was trying piece together what may have cause of your engine failure and came across the following post.

Well said Dean! I’m not sure yet that my opinion has changed – honest! Stay tuned. July 6th, the day the engine blew up, changed a lot of things. So far I haven’t been able to find the silver lining. But I never give up (note my signature below).

Joe,

Let me unzip my pants so the record can be set straghit. We offered to give your money back for the superchargers so that we would not have to deal with you, your boat, or engines again while trying to satisfy you. This had nothing to do with fuel in your oil of the second engine. Our reputation is not at stake, nor is yours, a fair amount of money is not at stake, you want $25,000 free and clear and we will not pay that ridiculous sum of money.

So lets touch on the information:

Fact: Your boat had very poor water pressure and at one point, 0 water pressure and subsequently, bad water cooling and poor protection against steam developing in your engine. We did not design your factory installed water pickup system.

Fact: Your stock 6.2MPI engines come without oil coolers.

Fact (from your word): You changed oil 3 times in a total of 71 hours of engine run time.

Fact: After the 71 hours of operating time, oil was checked by a quality unbiased mechanic. Within 2 hours afterwards, port engine bearings seized (2 to 3) due to lack of lubrication.

Fact: Quality unbiased mechanic would see, smell and feel gas in oil when inspected if there were signs of oil.

Fact (from your word): You were watching oil pressure and at no time, did you see it drop before or during engine failure.

Fact: If you are telling me you don't know to watch oil pressure, there's a larger problem. You even told me that's what you were taught when "flying," oil pressure was your lifeline.

Fact: We fixed your first engine that scorched a piston due to lack of water at our expense even though we have nothing to do with the water system.

Fact: We installed a water restrictor to increase water pressure because no other water pickup was installed.

Fact: Water restrictors increase pressure, not flow.

Fact: During testing, it was evident that at certain points in the way the boat was trimmed, the engine got very little to know water flow. From conversations with you, this was in the area that you would typically cruise at or near.

Fact: No water flow = very bad!

Fact: You were told at length about water pressure and the water problems that your boat had, as well as the danger of operating at these points.

Common information: Because the oil was checked by a quality mechanic and no gas in the oil was found, we have to assume that there were no traces of gas in the oil at that time. With this in mind, in order for your theory to work, the engine would have to produce enough gas in the oil to not lube the bearings in that "half a tank" of gas that you said you ran. Considering there were no signs of gas in the oil in the first 71 hours as witnessed by the person changing the oil 3 times, it's hard to believe in the last 2 hours or "half a tank" that you can have enough gas in the oil to sacrifice lubrication when it never did it before. Same computer program, same blower pulley, etc.

When people say your motor ran out of oil, they're refering to the fact that there was not enough lubrication in the oil pan to keep the bearings cool and lubricated. This does not mean there was no oil in the engine. You must understand a few things, first, with no oil cooler, oil will get hot, especially on a blower motor, under boost, at high rpm. Depending on oil quality and blend, pressure will typically fall if temps get hot. If theres not enough pressure, there's not enough lubrication. Oil can also vacate the pan, it can run up into the valley, into the valve train and running only a 6qt system, it makes it easier for oil pressure to fall under harder runs.

Your second engine had gas in the oil after the 71st hour. Prior, no gas was ever reported or found. Was the oil checked before going out with one supercharged engine and one nonsupercharged? I take this as the 71st hour, I would have to imagine it was checked since oil was a worry with the other motor. If no gas was found, that leads us to the last 15 minutes of running, just enough time to see oil pressure was low. I note, not at the 69 hour interval where the oil was checked in both engines.

Also, the second engine was never torn apart after being run without water, nor has a compression or leak down test been performed on it. When it was run here, there was no gas in the oil, the first 71 hours showed no signs of gas in the oil because there has been no discussion of this and I know I would get a call instantly if you did.

Also, I'm not bringing Mike into this, I'm bringing his engines into this, since you know this as a common example that we both know about. Mike is a good friend of mine, but that doesn't change the facts.

Thanks,
Dustin

Ok, so how do you see us resolving our differences? I'm open to suggestions.


p.s. Will concede the use of "fair" as a slip of the tongue/keyboard. Only meant that the amount of money is not immaterial.

Dustin- First, please do not consider these questions an attack on you or your company, they are not intended to be. I have a 26 daytona also. I am assumming (we both know what assumming means) eliminator puts the water pickup's in the same place on UT's boat as other ones they build. I know you have had all kinds of test equipment hooked up to the boat when you had it out for testing. I only have a single drive but in my boat I can not really change the trim of the boat as I use to do in my baja. My question is how was it evident the engine was getting little to no water? You have me concerned I am missing something on mine.

Your listing of facts is very informative. I know you kits for big blocks include an intercooler. Do your kits for small blocks include an intercooler also?

I find it interesting that mercrusier does not install an oil cooler on the small block but on the lowest HP big block they do. Do you know a reason for that. I know after I installed blower on my BB I had to increase the size of the cooler to keep pressure up.

Joe, we offered you money back for the used SC's and that was our offer. We do not warranty motors and are certainly not going to buy a new one. We already went far and above the call of duty, we rebuilt one motor at our expense, spent countless hours testing the boat, all in rush, overnite delivery, after hours work, on the weekends, to get your boat done for your vacation. There's no problem with that, I always go out of my way to support customers, even potential customers.

We've stated what we feel has happenned. We have the confidence in what we do. We know for a fact that the motor was not running rich enough to get past the rings if the sensors are reading correctly, we have no reason too think otherwise.

turbojack,

Hey no problem. To answer your questions, UT's water pickups are thru-hull pickups in which they installed in the bottom of each sponson. Both had approx. .25" of a lip hanging beneath the boat. They also installed some fiberglass extensions in the side of the sponsons towards the transom for either extra clearance for the engine or direct water away from the drive which hung a bit out into the tunnel area. Your boat does not have these in the tunnels, this was something for the dual small blocks only. This was also the first dual motor 26' Daytona done and to my knowledge, the water pickups in the boat have always been custom, never standard unless it had the Mercury or Imco drives with the standard pickups.

The reason we knew it had no water was pretty simple, the water pressure gauge fell to 0 from where it was and the water temp increased significantly, an example off the top of my head was from 105-108 operating temp to 160-170 before either lifting or adjusting trim. It was most noticeable with little trim and seemed to not vary with speed, if the boat was trimmed up, it had more pressure and increased with speed, temp would stay constant. With all our systems, we stress water pressure, we even have a Mercury Racing bulletin that states the same, they want a minimum of 25lbs. and maximum of 35lbs. @ WOT on all of there engines no matter what. They also state that this is up to the boat builder since Mercury does not know what X dimensions, hull designs, etc. that are being used. What many miss is that we want more water than Mercury, this is one of the reasons for the removal of the thermostat, this increases water flow and typically the boat speed will give us the pressure, but in some cases, as UT's, more water is needed. We restricted the water outflow to increase pressure and decreased total spark advance to compensate for the lack of water flow. The restrictor is somewhat of a band-aid, it will work, but sacrifices power and/or reliability. We don't know whether it was the pick up location, pickup style, open bow boat, larger props, X dimension, etc., we don't know why the water flow would go away, we just knew it did.

Not that it matters, but I was also told after the first engine had problems that there was some water history problems, mainly just a few sea pumps which could be associated to other things.

As for intercoolers, our small block systems have a large cupronickel/copper intercooler, a blower that is turning very slow (same displacement as the 500 HP EFI SC), has all the fuel running through the inlet which causes a phase change as the gas goes from a liquid to a gas form and refrigirates the entire compressor and air charge (actual ice is formed on top of compressors), etc.

I'm amazed Mercury does not include the oil coolers with the small blocks as well, in fact, when we got our first engine here 2 years ago, I saw a "cooler", figured it was the oil cooler until my father said there was not one, of course I argued, there had to be one, after further investigation, there was not. I agree that it's amazing that the 454 310 MPI had one, yet the 6.2MPI 320HP does not. Not only that, the small blocks only have a 6qt. system which as you know, can get hot faster and PSI can suffer in harder running conditions.

Thanks,
Dustin

Dustin

Have you started test on the 496mag (375)?
If so, what types of upgrades do you foresee for this motor?
What's your time frame ?

Bill

Dustin,

Are you able to post any pictures of the 496 mods with the CMI headers?

Can the CMIs be directly swapped or are adapter brackets necessary?

Thanks

To all of you who have called, emailed and pm’d to show support – thank you! I apologize for not responding promptly, but I promise I will. Thursdays are our committee day so my time is tied up in meetings and today I need to leave early as I promised my daughter I would take her to the horse races (I think she likes horses more than boats – go figure:confused: ).

Anyways your support is very much appreciated and don’t be too worried about me. I know right now it looks like Goliath is beating the stuffing out of David, but remember, this is not life or death. As Tank would say, "its all good."

Hopefully by next week I can find that damn slingshot ;)

Toddw,

Here's a picture of the 496 with the SC, I'm finishing up the photos for the 525 and performance cal. We made a really nice cover and flame arrestor.

Thanks,
Dustin

OK...what the hell is a 6.2?
Does someone have a pic of this motor...never heard of it.

Thanks Dustin. Looking good.