The art of being a throttleman.....
 

As this is only my second offshore boat.... I am still on the learning curve when it comes to operating it in the rough stuff.....I know you have to develop a feel for the boat and anticipate but was wondering if some of you more experienced people could shed some light on this subject......

we'd have to kill ya...plus it's not how you do something, it's when you do it!!!!...best thing to do is get in a boat w/a throttleman that knows what's up.

Joe,
Do you think there is any more, or less, skill in throttling verse driving? A friend and myself always like to joke around about the idea of running a P class boat in a few races (for fun). I picked Keith's brain for a good hour at the Coastal Poker Run. I didn't get a chance to talk to you and ask what your opinion was, but I was meaning to. What's your advice to getting started?

-Bayley

you need both a skilled throttleman and driver to win races in f1 and f2 racing!....i'm not a fan of p class...not into busting up a pleasure boat...get into a bat boat to start or f1/f2...and don't do it with a pleasure boat. keep it in the water....fly level....keep it off the chines....sounds easy doesn't it??LOL

It's crazy to me, in my cat, I drive, my friend Cary throttles, he can throttle this thing good too, but we've been doing it since 94 when we got the boat. When I try to throttle it, we are nowhere near the speeds he achieves when throttleing, it seems crazy, but that's how it is. In my v-hull, I feel really comfortable driving and throttling where I wouldn't even attempt it at high speeds in the cat. There is a definite learning curve, and it really takes a while to get the hang of. It invovles alot of factors too. Alot of it to me is feel, you feel and know when the boat is about to come out, and you know when it will re-enter, and if your timing isn't just right you'll be scrubbing speed, or over-revving the motors in the air, which bravo's really wont put up with, so error on the side of caution, but most of all, give it time, and have fun, and make sure to wear a teather and jacket in the snotty stuff just incase. I have gotten into the habbit in the cat, where I really cant feel comfortable without my jacket and teather on. Cant say the same for the v-hull, but it's nowhere near as fast, and this lake doesn't get too rough, but when it does I dont push it. Most of all, be safe:cool:

Way more skill on the throttles. It can mean the difference between a smooth and bumpy ride. When the throttle man is on his game it can be an unbelievable ride, when he's not....ouch.

There are several outstanding throttlemen that will teach you for hire. I'm talking the top 3 or 4 in the country. How much you want to spend?

Racing and poker running are two entirely different animals. If you race to win, when things get sloppy you can't slow down. You need to stay in it otherwise you'll get passed. It's an incredible experience and if you have the chance, go race. You'll never think about boating the same way again.

before you even worry about throttleing or driving you have to pair up with sombody you trust implicitly. both of you have to be able to leave the bull**** at the doc and work as a team. nobody is better then the other, it is 50/50. you must be able to agree on everthing. after that then both of you have to figure out how the boat likes to run. after you figure that out then you have to be able to talk back and forth to each other, tell one a nother what the boat needs at that point. if the driver say's the bow is to high then the trottleman must lower the bow. even thow you might scrub speed the driver is asking for it for a reason. if this is done with no hesitation then you will do very well together. a lot of problems come from the trottleman thinking he has the boat running right but does not because he cannot feel the boat without the wheel. since he does not have the wheel he must rely on the driver to tell him how the boat is. the driver must rely on the throttleman for acheiving top speed. the trottleman can tell the driver where and how the top speed is.

as far as your initial question in rough water. it takes time.listen to the driver. and it's not necceserialy timing it's feel. you should be able to close your eye's and feel the boat. you should be able to feel the prop's leaving the water ( that's when you pull back) and when the props hit the water ( thats when you floor it) ans keep going.

that should do ya. the rest you have to learn on your own. nothing like seat time.

Treadwell

mr velocity,

you are absolouty dead wrong and i will prove it any day of the week. first of all it is 50/50 without a good driver you are going nowere fast. both men must be in sink. but in all reality a good driver can coach a not so good throttleman through a course if he listens.

Treadwell

I've been thinking about the Bat Boat idea. Some of the offers I hear about almost seem "too good" to be true. I got a guy I trust 100% I'm just not sure that either one (or both) of us are up to the task. I guess that's why the Bat Boat is so appealing. If it's not my game, no big loss. I'll just try not to get into too many boat's path. Maybe in another few years or so I'll try it, need to knock off a few liquor stores first.

P.S. Anyone got some good links for the Bat Boat's racing programs?

way more skill!!!!...come on...i would agree if we were talking about running a poker run! NOT in a F2 or F1 boat in the front...at the apba pro series...i'll tell you right now that we push hard as hell in the corrners and in BIG water for that matter, if ya don't think so look at savanah, with keith at the wheel....put someone that w/o that skill in that seat and we'd be a back marker!!

you can call about the bat boat if you would like...my wife races one in the GLSCS and i have done a lot of instruction for them as well. i also am for hire to instruct using the audacity poker run AT....but i don't use this site to make money.

Treadwell is absolutly right! It's about feel, anticipation and having someone you trust. CapeCod was a good example. Huge water. A completely fogged up helmet. Could not see the water for the entire race. I ran the throttles completely by feel. We lost out intercom, so trust in David's hand signals to make sure we didn't stuff was crucial. It takes time to learn and the belief that both the driver and throttleman have an equal amount to offer each other.

Jim

OK, I understand pulling back when you leave the water and flooring when you hit the water. But, how far do have to pullback? 10%, 25%, 50% of throttle? Assuming your running at or near WOT.

pull back 100%. when you are in the air you don't want your props spinning. and don't give it gas untill you know the props are in the water or you will tear props and drives apart.

Treadwell

Good Q Todd W I often wonder that myself, I run on the rough wates of Lake Erie when ever I come out I back off 100% just to be safe but always wondered if that was right or not:confused:

Consider the moment. If you come out of the water flat, you can wait until the props back in. When we launch, I'm back on 100% power before or just as we hit the water (anticipation) to help avoid tripping and stuffing the boat. From my point of view, I only want the equipment to last to the end of the race. Others may have a different opinion. I respect that.

I have a quetion on this subject .
Treadwellmotorsports, You say pull back 100% ?
I have NO racing experience in a boat . Just a lot of fun ,hard running ! :D I dought you in NO way as to your ability .I just have to ask . IT seems to me that if your doing WOT say 80-90mph (just a number ) IF you pull back 100% and have a long air time ,the prop will come to an idle . If you enter the water at say 80 mph with the prop almost stopped , won't that cause a servere jolt to the drive and and pull the nose down hard ? I realize timeing is everything , and reaplying the throttle hard and fast will lift the nose again . Just wondering about having no throttle on re-entry. Just seams potentialy hard on equipment and possibly a stuff . Again ,I am no pro . Just asking and wanting to learn . Thanks for your replys . JOE

Hey Joe.....

re-entry with RPM's will HURT a drive. Imagine that the prop is spinning at 5000 and re-enters the water....the force of the water will slow your RPM's instantly while the motor is still trying to turn them. THis is usually how shafts twist and break because both sides want to go in different directions.

Now your questions about the bow comming down too much i can't answer.

yellow submarine,,,yellow submarine....to sum it up your rpms have to match the boat speed when you re inter and as load increases or decrease...the best way to lean is seat time w/some that knows was thier do'n...

boot,

yes timing is everthing. yes it does create a jolt but imagine if the prop was spinning at 5200 rpms and you hit the water. the prop will be slowed down consideriably to the point you might bust your gears. if the prop is not spinning or spinning rather slowley then you will get less resitance. you are right if your not on your game you can falter and stuff the boat.

thats were setup comes into play. for rough water races you generally run a prop about three sizes smaller then your high speed prop. so when you do renter the water the saller prop will bring your rpms back up immediatly and keep you skipping accross the water. thats why in many cases you will hear racers say say ran to big of a prop that day.

Treadwell

I personally come off about 50% I try to keep the tachs even and not allow them to hit the revs of fall way low......If I am catching big air i will come off 75% I can say i dont ever remember coming off all the way. No broken bravo's but I did smoke a couple lowers on my 2.5's

the jobs are not equal for every boat or every race agreed???....from the bat boat...you have to drive the **** out of that (keep it off the chines) to BIG fast as hell cats where you don't toy with the edge in a turn as much. from cape cod where i worked my ASS off in f2-80,,,to saint clair bat boat race wher i could have zip tied the throttle to wot...i never lifed once in 3 laps...how's that...we all agree now:rolleyes:

Gotta go with Treadwell on this one
 

Spitfire,
Joe, (Audacity), and Eric Treadwell are two of the top men in their respective positions in an offshore boat. I've never raced F2, but I've been racing other classes alongside both of them. They're good. You won't go wrong following their suggestions and learning their techniques and skills.
From my experience, although I feel I can hold my own in a race, I'm no throttleman. The fact is, good throttlemen are usually pretty picky about who drives for them. Same is true for good drivers and who they have on the sticks. I myself have always had the good fortune of racing with some outstanding throttlemen. I have also raced with a "not so good" throttleman. I will never again race with a throttleman that I don't feel comfortable with.
As Eric said, it's a 50/50 deal in a raceboat. A good throttleman can win you lots of races, while a bad one can kill you. The same is true for a driver. One side is no more important than the other, and the best, most competitive teams respect each others job. It's a team effort, The best teams may not be the worlds best driver, or the worlds best T-man in the same boat. But a team that clicks, and works well together can make a huge difference in the overall performance in a race.
I have raced P class, but I too share concerns that someone may try to race a boat that may not be "race worthy". And a new/rookie team racing over their heads in an unsafe boat is going to be ugly sooner or later.
In my opinion, The Bat boat class is, by far, the safest way to get a taste of offshore racing. If you screw up, they are very forgiving boats. They are fast and competitive, yet safe and stable. They are a great learning class to gain that "seat of the pants" feel that all of the great drivers and throttlemen have. In a word, they gain you experience. And there is no alternative to seat time.
Good luck to you, and good racing!

mr velocity,

your right with that. agood throttleman can coach a not so good driver and vice versa. yes jerry is one of the best at what he does but it's a lot easier when you spend countless hours testing and your ahead of the pack. but in factory class it is diffrent.

Treadwell

Hmmm......lots of good information here......I understand that seat time is a good equalizer and learning to read the water is also important which comes with more seat time.........I have ridden with someone who actually pops the throttle when out of the water before reentry......I guess this is his technique.....any thoughts on this.....I guess the thought being to try and keep the rpm's up without over revving so that reentry is smoother....I am just interested in becoming proficient and not shortening the life of my equipment needlessly.........

you can't win races if you don't finish!

Ain't that the truth.

If your boat is trimmed right there is not that much throttling going on.Its more about trimming the boat then throttling.Its got to be pretty big before I have to lift.Keep the boat level and make it up in avarage speed.I only lift when we are defanently air born and only lift mybe 60% off.Our motor has a rev limiter at 5300 rpm and a XR drive.Semi rough water we spike it all the time.
Dont forget this is racing. 500 hp matched to a XR drive is one great package.
Lesson # 2 is dont over trim thinking you will get more speed.IT DOESN"T WORK!!! you only lose controll and crash.Please be safe when you are practicing and always wear your life jacket and helmet if you are practicing at speed.
Randy

tip # 1387452A...if your using the rev limiter to throttle your scrubbing speed...the rev limiters are junk...it by no means is a soft touch! not saying i never hit them...but the boat WILL be faster if your just off it at less than wot and not on it at wot. like i said prior...do what you do...your do'n it right if your out front...actions speak louder than words....

a fan of show me don't tell me!

yes eric,yes eric,but i dont wanna,yes master eric,you da man.....erics bigger than me.....but when andy was runnin our famous 1/2 lap,it was just shut up and on you little sh#$t....the drivers faces I liked to see is Beckleys after runnin with Lance or Mark....HA HA HA,whats up wild man call me about trying to get to the worlds......

Great thread...Thanks for the information. I have rarely back off 100%. Unless the airtime afforded my the opportunity to. I have a lot to learn in this area of driving. I have broken 2 Bravos already. So all this information helps.

Oh I did want to mention, Randy is right. #1 mistake is people overtrim the boat.

For drivers, the fastest way between two points in not necessarily a straight line. It's true, fingure that one out.

randy,

you know i love you but i have said it before and it took me a long time to get it also.

many times less is more. you boy's in f1 have this thing about not lifting. well you can scrub just as much and if not more going into a turn not lifting then lifting. and joe is right. if you are truly using your rev limiter as a mark then you are slowing yourself down. first of all you are killing the motor and shocking the drive to the point were it will blow up. that was my mistake years ago. you have to run just under the limiter. now granted you are pushing less weight and have less chance of breaking a drive then a big fat f2 boat but that what happens. when your on the rev limiter it actually is shocking the hell out of the drive and drops the floor on the gear.

Treadwell

What about tab position in relation to throttle and trim. Trimmed-in in rough water I can only run level using the tabs. My concern is not the loss of speed from lowering the tabs, but rather knowing when is too much tab a bad or potentialy risky thing?

it's an impossible question to ask...kinda like i have a ford mustang from 1998 what position should i hold the gas at in turn 5???

you can take someone not too experienced and they could never throttle/run the boat at the same trim positions as someone with experience...

how about this......take a mx bike go'n through whops...it's only 1/4 turn on a throttle lock to lock...take someone that has never rode off road vs a pro..think there's a difference....what is it??? timming!

be safe...run w/in your limits....

joe is right to a point. you can still give advice.

it depends on your boat. you need to know what your boat wants in the rough wayer. you need to know the attitude your boat likes to run in the rough. then you can determine were to run the tabs. but if you intend to run high speed at a considerable distance you need to be able to read the water and set the boat up for the next wave in advance and anticapate how the boat will react. seat time seat time seat time.

Treadwell

aslo well said joe run within your limit's. and if you think you don't have any stop.

LOts of good stuff hear !
I under stand you have to lift , And every situation is diferent . I just always had a gestimate of if the boat is aired out and maybe slows a few % you should have your prop speed set acordingly on reentry. Another words if you leave the water at 90mph and reenter at 75 , I would think your props should be doing 75 when they enter . OF course you would need to be real good to acurately guess that one !! I never pulled back more then the speed of the boats forward motion . Of course there is also a differance if you are running a 454 magnum or a pair of 1200's . Your throttle position will vary greatly ! I have 171/2" x 32's props on surface drives . If I kill the throttles even on flat water with my cat , the props work like ramps and lift the ass of the boat right off the water !!:eek: Of course my original quesion was more along the lines of running a V bottom as thats were most of my experience is and the V's tend to take flight more often . THe "CAT" factor throughs in a hole bunch of other variables . Thanks .

boot,

well there ya go throwing a wrench in everthing. with surface drives there is really no need to pull back other then to keep the motor off of the limiters. you run the risk of torqing the prop or loosing an ear on the prop but that is very rare.

like is said. each boat is diffrent. depends on your setup.

one other main reason for pulling all the way back on the throttles is if you do get good air you can kill your water impellar. but with your cat setup you have no risk of that. that's only on bravo setup with no sea strainer.

Treadwell

The Art of throttling
 

There haven't been a lot of Art's throttling........... Art Lilly being the only one who readily comes to mind..........

Art Eckman is a great TV announcer, but he can't throttle a lick.

Hope this helps.

T2x



P.S. Asking how to throttle is kind of like asking..... "How do you play a piano?"

There have been some nice tips on here....but they're "tips" only.....ride with a pro......or watch one on TV.

And yes you pull back 100%....sinc (not sink) your RPMs with hull speed upon reentry...(approximately where the throttle was when you left the water......)....and , if you hit it right the bow will lock in almost immediately to your preferred angle of attack. If you mess up...... the bow will either bounce back up again..... or take a bite out of the next roller......

Happy Art class.........:p

t2x,

well i guess it was only a matter of time. but thanks for backing me up on the pulling back 100%. i am not a throttle man but i do know what i need from one. and yes art lilly would do just fine. only trying to tell the guy's how it should be done from what i know.

Treadwell