Lake Lanier - lessons learned
 

Posting this for discussion about the crash, what happened, and what we can learn from this incident. Please keep this sort of conversation here rather than in the thread where folks are offering memories and condolences; while you might be making a great and valid point about "X" behavior, it might not sit too well with some folks that still grieving.

I feel any accident is a chance to learn and become a safer sport, but there. Is a time and place for all discussions. If you all disagree, either the mods or I can delete this thread.

Safe boating....

Delete

Thread reopened for discussion. Please keep the feelings of the family and friends of the souls that were lost in mind when posting.

I am not sure what specifically can be learned from this tragedy that has not been discussed many times before in other threads about similar incidents.

The PFD debate has been hashed and rehashed. Would PFD's have changed anything???? Nobody knows for sure.
I feel its a personal choice or the decision of the owner/captain if he chooses to mandate PFDs be worn.
I don't wear one and highly doubt I ever will on a regular basis. I've been 100+ mph several times and could have put one on and I made the choice not to.
I also feel at high speeds with a catastrophic event that the likelihood of a PFD saving someone is rather slim.

Yup

I'm sorry but I can't see any good coming from this thread.

We already know what to do out there and it's mostly common sense but even the strictest of precautions can't prevent the unpreventable so just take care out there and don't ever stop thinking.

RR

Delete!

Why would you call it unpreventable? Race boats that appear to be pleasure boats have tragically been involved in accidents at major boating gatherings for many recent years.

Should high speed runs should only be conducted on closed courses? If that's the case what constitutes high speed?

The only thing that can be learned from this thread, that hasnt been hashed a million times over as already suggested is, enjoy your life, love your friends and family and be a positive influence to others. Everyone assumes some risk everyday no matter what you do. Leave the house you may get hit by a bus. Stay in bed, you may get bed sores. Nobody has lived a life worth living without assuming some risk. The idea is dont be stupid, and as I understand it this does not qualify. With adventure comes risk, and when your time is up, your time is up, end of story!

I'm generalising about powerboats and their use.
All boating accidents can be prevented if we stay on the shore but as soon as we venture out to do what we love doing, we face Mother Nature, mechanical issues, other boaters and numerous other issues that all play a part in safety at sea.

I'm just saying we can't foresee every possibility, that rogue wave, the drive that breaks, the tab that gets stuck, debris in the water etc, etc. Speed certainly can increase the risk factor but I'm talking about recreational boating at any speed.

Accidents are exactly that, 'accidents' and often due to circumstances beyond our control. We do what we can to reduce the risk but there's always the possibility of something going wrong. Just enjoy boating and take as much care as possible.

RR

I would agree to disagree. We can all learn something from this.

I do not think we will ever know what exactly made this boat flip. There is no telemetry I am aware of in the recreational boat world. But if we do not get our **** together (the Industry and the Boating Public) I can see a day when the Insurance Industry will ask for it. That being said, we are all shocked and saddened this could have happened in this sport to folks that where loved, but this could have happened in a Motorcycle or Auto accident and had the same end result.

The speeds all the newer boats can run now are mind boggling compared to even the mid 1990's

There is way more dangerous sports and hobbies.

More lives are lost in my woods and mountains than there are with performance boats around the country.

More lives are lost each year at our Bike Week than there are with performance boats around the country.

Don't blow it ( #'s) up into a bigger deal than it is.


Do you want to watch nature thru a window or a picture, or do you want to go out and personally experience it ?

1. Lets say there were 250 people at the poker run and 4 perished. (1 in 62.5) vs. 2500 that show up for a major bike event and say 8 perish (1 in 312.5). Boating is 5X more dangerous even with double the number of deaths in bikes. Numbers can sway an argument both ways!

2. Pretty sure if you asked the four deceased if they would like to die this weekend or stay on the dock for the weekend they would have been happy to stay on the dock and watch.

I agree with you 100% but two points to consider:

1. Jackets help rescuers get to you faster and can prevent drowning. Blunt force trauma or head injury can't be prevented though.
2. Never seen a race held without everyone wearing a jacket (and those guys should be the best boat drivers out there!)

This is not what I'm saying !

I am saying performance boat deaths in all.

Sure, if you want to make the % look bigger, you can use your example.

If an organized group of 8 go hiking together, and 1 dies, is that 20% of all hikers die ? More typical are groups are 2,3, and 4. So the % sky rockets if you chose to do the math that way.

Here is where I was going, we have many, many mountains in my state. Just one mountain alone has had 137 fatalities(that they know of) as of a few years ago. There where a handful this past year not yet counted in that.

Do we close down our mountains ? No !

Do we feel horrible for those effected by the deaths ? Most definately !

As far as your #2 - of course !

Why does it always seem to be the Skaters and Cumberland folks or @ Cumberland? Not speculating whatsoever, it's just strange IMHO.

2008 Kevin Sellers @ LC 36' Skater
2013 Jeff and Brad @ LC 40' Skater
2016 Anthony, Tammy, Art and Melissa 38' Skater

BTW: I wasn't yelling with those exclamation points.LOL.

We are all big boys and if you don't know what safety precautions to take and enforce by now, find a different sport. We know the risks and weigh the risks for everything we do in life, then make our own choices.

This thread is a poor attempt to discuss the accident.

Unless it was witnessed or caught on a video the causes will be speculation and lead us nowhere. The dude chopping throttles in the Fountain was a lesson because you could see his actions, this...who knows. Sort of pointless until more facts come out.

I think the biggest lesson learned is what John Woodruff said at the captains meeting that night, it was an accident. Nothing more, it was just an accident and accidents happen. I didn't know Art, but from what I've read he's a very experienced boater so he's probably run that boat fast 100s of times, this time it just happen to catch a rouge roller. Could happen to any of us...

Why don't you people just call up your insurance company yourselves and tell them to double your rates?
They are already reading this.

What happened? The boat was going fast and it got out of shape.
Why? No one is certain, but it did NOT involve another craft.
Does this suck that it happened? Yep.
Could PFDs helped? Perhaps.
But only if rated for high speed impacts AND worn correctly (read: leg straps).
They likely died from impact and not drowning, and that should come out at some point.

I'm not sure what else needs to be discussed.

Even though this didn't happen on the Poker Run, let's hope this doesn't cause it to get shut down; as has happened to many other runs around the country.

Nashville Catz was a Nortech 43 Supercat and it hit a Eliminator and 5 died in Texas that day. Fiore died in his brand.......The logo on the side doesn't matter.

Pretty sure they don't need an offshore website to set their rates or raise their rates........they do it already!

The underwriters would just need to call Sy, Stacey or Devon to inquire about "what happened" and then the underwriters start with the payout equations and resetting the rates.

Your comment makes about as much sense if you called the San Francisco Chronicle and told them to stop covering the major earthquake they just had because insurers could read it and raise the homeowner's rates.

With everyone running "Go Pro" devices you know there should be video somewhere even if it was little Johnny wakeboarding behind a pontoon with the Skater in the background.

My daughter was starting to get lazy about wearing a wife jacket ( getting into the teenage years and wearing is one cool I guess) since this accident she will again be wearing it while under way, no exceptions.

Unfortunately, society thrives on sensationalism and gore. And we're just not going to change that in any of our generations.

And my boat insurance underwriters are unaffiliated with Sy, Stacy, nor Devon. Are yours affiliated?


P.S. I know they don't "need" a website, but they sure do "use" them. Kind of like how Ron White tells his story about not knowing how many bouncers it was going to take to kick his ass, but he knew how many they were going to use.

We could always ask RiskTaker about boating, events, websites, and insurance...
...wait, he's not around anymore after the SOTW accident. The gore and sensationalism after the deaths ruined a man's whole career.

http://www.soundingsonline.com/news/...ed-as-horrific
There are no immune manufacturers.

HTM and Redline, also both lost their founders in their own boat accidents.

I've read all the posts so far...I understand that everyone needs to vent, share thoughts, etc, etc...not really sure this is of any benefit however. Maybe this is more of a "speak to your therapist and deal with the mourning process"...Keeping things civil and on point might be the best tactic here. I personally can not imagine having to deal with such a loss of any of my friends or family. Yes, anything at anytime can and will happen. Our joy of boating is our release. Some push the limits, some don't...if you push the limits something bad will happen at some point.... God speed to all involved...pray for the family and friends...

Chris

Thank you voice of reason! Some morons on this site must be insurance agents and want to drive rates up with topics like this. If you have to discuss this do it in person. Not on the forums so your insurance agents can read it M O R O N S !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Insurance companies and law firms gather their data from official accident reports via services that do nothing else, very doubtful that anyone's opinion on a forum is going to make much if any difference.

Insurance companies are mostly interested in premiums earned verses loss history. The minute those numbers don't favor them, they are out.

I think a majority of this can be pointed towards the lowering costs of making big horsepower. The last ~20 years has really driven the price on being able to make big horsepower, in both car/boat form, downward. As we move forward with more power and faster vehicles, accidents are more tragic. I'm not saying there should be a limit or restriction, but there are repercussions of having high horsepower. But I can't talk, I rode my 189 wheel horsepower street bike to work this morning, and will have my 1250 hp in the water this weekend. I also know that both have a chance of severely hurting me or worse killing me, but I'm willing to take that risk to enjoy what I love.

I'm getting the same grief from my older daughter now that she turned 14 and does not legally have to wear one while underway. I have eased up a little bit and let her take hers off if we are just idling along and she is sitting on the bench seat, but of course now her 12 year old sister wants to shed hers too. Can't win.

I am usually just putting along at 40 MPH or so most of the time, but you just never know when the unexpected can happen, and if someone went under in the murky lake or river water you would never be able to find them in time. It's just not worth the chance when it comes to your kids. Even at those speeds, I still wear my lanyard just in case.

I run 80+ mph every weekend for usually 14 to 20 miles nonstop, year round as I have been for the last 6 years in my current ride. Then turn around and do it again usually totaling 50 to 70 miles an outing in anything up to 3.5' lake chop. It's a calculated risk that I willingly accept. You just need to make sure the odds are in your favor. I ran in 40+ mph winds a month or so back which was challenging in an air entrapment hull. I found I could run 60 mph with the wind but not into the wind. Know your ride and its limitations and you will be fine.

While I struggle to put words together to describe the type of people Anthony and Tammy and Art and Melissa were I am haunted by the question….could we have done more? Should we have made a pact to all wear life jackets before departing the island? Should we have made a gentleman’s agreement to keep our speeds in check? Should we have driven at all? There are dozens of questions that you ask yourself in hindsight of any tragic event. For me, I will be more cognizant to not second guess what I know is the right thing to do – use your judgment and proactively make those decisions for yourself, your passengers and your friends.

I will miss you Art, Missy, Anthony and Tammy. I will miss you in the poker runs we had scheduled this year. I will miss you on the docks at Cumberland. I will miss that welcoming smile and that damn Cowboy hat Anthony! I will miss seeing the bond that both couples shared with their soulmates. Most of all I will miss talking to my friends.

Two quotes from this weekend from both Anthony & Art that I will never forget.
“Son! – can we get some Jason Aldean on this thing?”
“Hey buddy – let’s go burn some fuel”

May the lord please look after the families and friends in this time of need.

Matt

Matt - That was incredible. Thank you.

We're all members of the same community. No need to beat each other up.

DELETE .... Some of yall will never get it. This is the difference between new OSO & old OSO and with that being said, dockrocker you should know as you have been here for a while and know how the old OSO was. Delete this.

Here is a lesson to be learned. Excellent post and truly sorry for your loss.

Delete - serves no genuine purpose.

It is no different than boat racing
 

People ( including myself) loose friends all the time in boat racing. You can count on losing some one every couple years if you are in the sport. It's risk we take. That being said. I had a V drive race boat for pleasure. Any time I drove it I wore a chute jacket with neck deflector and kevlar. Kevlar pants as well. But people still die wearing all that protective stuff. My opinion. Tunnel or cats for the most part are a wing on the water, A race boat. You always have wrisk at speed but cats are pretty much designed for racing. ( like a hydro) Not too many unlimited hydros out on poker runs. But all of them have roll bars , capsules oxygen etc. People still die with all that too

I am sure this thread is very painful to all that knew these folks, but if some read it and glean anything that saves a life at some point, or just makes everyone give a thought as they prepare to go boating it may in fact have a great purpose.

Here's a possible lesson learned.
Clearly both families owned Lifeline and/or "Lifeline-style" jackets....and apparently wore them during poker runs, judging by these pics.
Maybe the lesson is that things can go wrong when you let your guard down and don't expect them to, instead of when you expect them to and prepare for it?

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...22935482_o.jpg

http://photos.flpowerboat.com/img/s/...60162265-4.jpg