Opinions of surface drives
 

I was wondering why more boats don't use the Arneson surface drive. They have proven to be reliable and offer less drag for increases speed. Why don't more boats use them? What am I missing?

expensive, hard to get boat on plane, etc

How Expen$ive??

i do not have exact prices, but they are several times more expensive than outdrives.

I've used Arnesons in the past and had good luck, but not every hull is suitable.
Ask Rik Wimp at Arneson for information:

[email protected]

I have owned a 22' Avanti for the past 10 years that has had an Arneson drive on it coupled to a warm 454. It has been very reliable, easy to service, and a very predictable drive - as long as it is not trimmed up to the max. but - I have never driven a performance boat at speed with a Bravo style drive - so I can't compare.

As for cost, it is more expensive, but not extremely more. I think the cost is about $8500 complete.
I think a complete new Bravo assembly with transom is $5k +.

I would also agree with Dueclaws - every hull might not be suitable for the drive, and you should consult with the experts.

Lou

Seems like they are as stong as a #5 or #6 drive and I never hear anyone considering them when looking into a new drive package.

Compared to a 5 or 6 they are way less expensive.

When you consider what your intensions are : SPEED and HORSE POWER, THey are cheaper !

SABER28, What are you comparing them to as being expensive ? A bravo? Even the high performance bravos blow up all the time . I have NEVER herd of an Arneson blowing . So if you compare them ,apples to apples, to a speed master , They are cheaper and offer more speed . THe speed master can be put on the surface but is a shorter prop shaft and has different angles of trim giving it more cavitation problems as it is in rougher water closer to the transom . The Arneson with longer reach makes the boat run like it's longer ( Like an extension box). As for planing , Most people I know complane about planing time with speed masters and bravos too . WHen you set up a boat for 1 thing ,it will suffer somewhere else . If it is top end , your hole shot may suffer . If you set it for hole shot ,the top end will suffer .
Now if you have the power , and the "RIGHT" set up on an Arneson . I don't think you suffer at all ! At least you can't tell anyway.

Ask RONP , Did "jet set " have any problem planing ??:D NO !! IT will hit 100 in less then 5 seconds ! OR , Did he have a problem with top speed ? :D NO ! 195 mph is not much of a problem huh . Just my .02 . You have to compare apples to apples . IN that way , the Arneson is cheaper , faster , and doesn't brake ..

I know nothing about the racing politics but as I understand the sanctioning bodys won't allow Arneson's to compete against "their" mercruiser products . Sounds like they are scared Of the Arnesons for a good reason ..... They work . Not knocking the speed masters , they are good too . Just answering the above quesion .

I agree with Boot but I'm talking about pleasure boats and poker runners. Race boats need to play by the rules.

Another good thing about Arnesons is your props are NEVER in the mud !

I took mine out 2 weeks ago for a test run . 39' express cat (heavy) We were in very shallow water , (no wake)I pushed it just a little and had the nose pointing up high and ass burried DEEP in the water . I left it run like that for about 100 yards leaving the house . I didn't touch any mud at all . MY friend was following me in his sonic with his bravos UP HIGH , and riding flat at a dead idle . HE hit all the way out !! And my drives are not even trimable . They are fixed position . So I couldn't pull them up if I wanted to . BUT, I didn't need to .

yes , i was comparing the bravo to the surface drive. unless i'm losing it don't you have to run a transmission? that adds a lot of cost and takes up space in the cockpit. don't get me wrong i know surface drives are stronger etc. besides who wants to dive of the transom with a couple of blender blades back there:p

After reading all the posts about broken bravos, I've seriously considered a surface drive for my single engine 28' Magnum hull which I'm rigging. Has anyone on this board used anything similar in a deep V ??
The Pulse drive offers trimability but a rudder to steer with. It also has a built in "swim platform" over the "blender beaters". The Pulse drive only trims 11 degrees, compared to the Arneson which is 15 degrees.
The Pulse drive is less expensive then the Arneson, the Arneson Drive also offers a "drop box" for large oil pan engines.....What do I do?????:confused: :confused:
BOB G.

Bravos shouldnt even be compared to Arnesons, they arnt even close. Arnesons are way cheaper compared to is competitor, the dry sump #6.

A complete kit for twins was about 28K, for every little last thing that you need.

A new #6, for a single, is about 22K and i dont know much about these but I am sure that is without the transmission.

As far as less cockpit space, nope, you dont even need to move your engines, the trans fits in with an ext. box like piece.

Ron P, as far as Poker Runners, you will see me with Arnesons next year when I get my cat and enter poker runs. But I too have that question, why dont more people use them.

These are some links that talk about them too:

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forum/sh...threadid=30856

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forum/sh...threadid=33999

I also don't understand why surface drives are not used more. I have a 42' Harley Sportfish, with fixed surface drives. It will go 50mph wot w/twin 410 hp engines. This is a 15,000 lb+ boat, I doubt that it would work this good with a couple of Bravo drives.
I am currently in the market for a pair of good used ASD6 or ASD 8 Arneson drives so I can have trimable drives. If anyone hears or knows someone who can help, please let me know.

Steve H

I'm asking becuase after riding on Jetset and seeing how those four rudders hold the water in a corner, I am no longer conserned about steering.

Bob, the rooster tail is worth it alone. You should call Howard Arneson and get the poop. I think the hull needs a little rocker to make them work. Or was that with a blackhawk drive?

To me these seem like the answer to everyone's drive problems. I just don't know why people don't usually list them as one of thier choices. Everyone except Bob that is.;)

Just so happens, I was going thru a marine salvage yard today, when I stumbled (literally) across this.

Wow Cuda, WHats up with that ? The top looks like a Kaama drive . Must be a real old one Mine are on a 1988 boat and dont' look like that .Or someone cut the top off mine !:D

MArk, Is that price for 2 of everything ?? Trans, extension boxes , drives etc.?? WOW . Sounds too good to be true !

Steve , I see them for sale in the back of Powerboat magazine from time to time .

Sure seams like everybody should have them doesn't it !!:p

Steve H, tell us about the 42 Harley. How is the construction, rigging, finish, and perfromance. You see 50 mph with twin 410hp diesels on a 15000 lb boat. I would love to read your experiences with the boat. What kind of things have gone wrong? What year is yours.

Sorry for all the questions just interested in hearing from Harley owners and their first hand experience.

Thanks a bunch in advance

James

I believe is was an A-6. He wanted $2200 for everything. Has the steering and trim too.

I found one earlier this year, like new with everything to hook it up (except trans) for $1500. I found another one in good shape for $1000, I think it may have been missing the trim or something.

MARK,

IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR A CAT MY BRO HAS ONE


COMPLETELY RE GEL COATED. EVERYTHING WAS STRIPPED, NEW INTERIOR FROM AL'S(OUTERLIMITS) WITH SKATER FIVE MAN BACK SEAT, ARNESON COMPLETELY REBUILT BY ARENSON AND TOTALLY POWDERCOATED, ROCKER PLATES, FRSH 572/900HP+ ZUL ENGINES ALL EICKERT ACCS, 3 STAGE PUMPS NEW INTERCOOLERS, STELLINGS, MSD IGNITION,TRI AXLE TRAILER....ANYWAY IF YOU ARE INTERESTED

James,

I bought it from National Liquidators in Ft Lauderdale a couple of years ago as project. I didn't pay a whole bunch for it. It was a very tired boat with new engines (about 100hrs) My wife was not happy when she saw it for the first time!

It has Marine Power 410 hp 502s w/1.5 to 1 twin disc gears, spinning 18x21 3 blade rolla props. I cruise about 35mph @3,500 rpm with average load.(Fuel, beer, etc.)

I talked to Harley boats about this boat. He was very familiar with it. As he should. He has owned it three times!

He built it as a cargo utility boat. It had triple 450hp Merlin diesels with suface drives and 850 gal fuel. It was spec'ed to carry 15,000lbs and still get on plane. A year or so later he bought it back at a Marshalls auction."Gee imagine that". He sold the engines, converted to pleasure with twin gas power. It then went thru a few more owners before I got it.

These boats are deep vee kevlar construction. They are built like a tank. I think that they are about indestructable. Most of the rigging is very, very, heavy duty. I think some of this stuff belongs on a ship. The fit and finish does leave a bit to be desired. Mine was pretty rough when I got it, but I have looked at a couple of other ones that were supposed to be in good shape. I was not impressed. I have been working very hard to bring the level of fit and finish up to a high standard. I have refinished to top sides and replaced all of the cabin interior.

Nothing has really gone wrong that had anything to do with the boat. I did give it the stress test last summer. After I had the top sides repainted w/Imron, I ran it up the Columbia River Gorge, from Longview, WA to Kennewick, WA. This is about 300 miles of some of the worst wind and waves that most of us will never see. Most people do this trip in a week. We did it in ten hours. We pulled into the marina and I went straight to bed. As hard as we pounded that boat there was not one stress crack in the new paint or any where else when we got home.

The features that attracted me to Harleys:

All kevlar
(Light weight)
Engines under floor
(You can step aboard instead of crawling).
Huge cockpit
(I hope to fish it in S.E. Alaska this summer)
Surface Drives
(No more leaking bellows, and stripping and painting drives every year)
Very large and practical cabin

Only ***** I have is the rooster tail, I can't see a damn thing behind me.
AnyWay you asked

I got some great before and after pics if anyone is interested

Steve H

Id like to Rig a powerglide to a asd-6 not sure what size stall converter I would use? the asd6's used are cheap without a trans and well everyone knows what a powerglide can be had for

Thanks A Bunch Steve, I really appreciate it. I like the Harley for the same reasons you do and was really intrigued by the performance for such a huge boat. I think it has a 10 1.2 ft beam maybe 11 1/2?

I am amazed you hit 50 mph with twin 502s, I would like to hit 50 with diesel power.

Any pictures of your project before and after would be great and i would love to continue this discussion in the future at your leisure. My Email is [email protected].

thanks again and look forward to future discussions and pics.


James

Going fast w/ surface drive is easy to control. What about when you need precision around the docks? dosent that piss you off, seeing someone with one of the nicest boats youve seen but they have no idea how to drive it?

I owned an Arnseon 6A drop center with gears once. Bought it new from arneson when they bought it back from borg-warner.What a great drive!. Came complete with steering ram , trim ram , pump, prop and coupler. I first bolted it to an Avenger converted inboard with a 327 small block and it went like hell. I than picked up a 24' panther [popoff of a superboat but with a pad] and placed the arneson with an LS6 454 450hp. Worked out very well and was fantastic on fuel. Takes a little getting used to with single engine [ wanted to pull to the right when backing down fast] don't think twins have that problem. It never broke and I beat the hell out of it. I wish I had bought the bronze model that they offered. If I had I would still own it and just kept swapping from boat to boat.

Know what would be cool. A twin arneson/single engine setup.How about it Howard?

control?
 

>Going fast w/ surface drive is easy to control. What about when you need precision around the docks?

I have fixed surface drives. They are the worst. There is definitely a learning curve. If there is no wind or bad current, it is quite easy. If it way windy, you should stay out tight situations, unless you have a competent crew to give you a hand. Never expect reverse to get you out of trouble! Always approach docks and other boats very very slow.

Steve H

Too Old, As for power draw on the Arneson , I don't think it takes much . With the drive coupler off I can spin the input shaft turning the entire drive and prop shaft with my finger tips with ease!! I actualy had to look over the back and see that it was still attached ! It was too easy ....

WWW TOPDJ COM, The power glide would be cool if you needed it but you wouldn't need a torque converter. Just run a direct drive coupler the all boat trans do .


HyperBaja, I have no problem at all with docking or handleing in anyway with mine . The only thing is with 1.32 gears and 17 1/2x32 pich props , when you put it in gear you are going to jump fast and far as with all boats with big power . The other thing is backing up . Even with only 1 engine in reverse it goes so fast in about 10 seconds it throughs water over the transom . It's hell if you have to back out of a slip or lagoon ! :eek: But it handles fine . I think all of it is who's behind the wheel .

OOOPPPPPSSS , Sorry Steve . :rolleyes: Didn't mean that thing about who's behind the wheel ...... Your post wasn't there when I was typing ...... Can you forgive me ??:D

I'll forgive you Boot if you tell us more about your boat.

Steve H

Mine are the KAAMA's that Boot mentioned earlier, and so far these things are great. (nothing but big and beefy inside them). Handling at higher speed seems to be fine, just a little less reactive on the cat. Bit it feels very safe.

At the slower speeds (docking, on to the trailer, in-and-out of boats etc) I've been using the Fwd/Rev method versus steering. It has such a wide arc (mine at least), just seems easier the other way. And that works just fine.

One comment though. With the twins, if you loose an engine for some reason its more like guiding in the Space Shuttle. It don't steer with just one.



Bob

Kaamacat, You are right there !!!

IF you loose 1 motor , The other won't steer for **** !!! In other words if you are using only the right motor , It won't make a right turn . IT will go left fine but not right . Even with it turned hard to the right . When I go into a lagoon or marina I leave them both running and use the left engine to make right turns and the right motor to make left turns ! Either one will go straight but only turns one way . Now on my old V bottom , 40' formula with Kaamas , you couldn't tell them from bravos at the dock .......

My father did the Kaama and I worked with him on our WSD drive and now the WMD drive.
All three drives were built for specific reasons. Every drive can do atleast one thing right.
The Kaama has a gearset added to it to bring the propshaft closer to parallel to the running surface as well as ratio.
As for surface drives like the Arneson they are not very good around the dock for the reasons they are good at high speeds(if you can keep them straight on a twin)
Having a 6 deg transom will not allow you to trim to level because the prop comes out of the water so you need to add rocker to assist the bow to come up, Buzzi used anti dive planes.
With the advent of stepped hulls it makes trimmability a problem in a Vee bottom.
On cats the natural down angle helps keep the bow stay down at high speeds. But you can do that with a normal drive too. That makes the acceleration a little slower.
I hope this helps a little. There is no "perfect" drive. On the WMD project we did 7 different studies.
As for racing, bring it on. We don't race ourselves and claim to be the best we like competition.
pat W

I was under the impression that a stepped bottom boat performs better with surface drives than a non-stepped bottom boat? Look at Fountain’s success with the Arneson’s!

As for rocker, don’t the stepped bottom boats remove the need for it? I thought I read that in a Poker Runs America article a while back.

No surface drive can have positive trim, whether it’s a Bravo, SSM, Arneson or even Weismann as when the propeller is at the surface, you cannot trim it any higher correct?

What is a 6-degree transom?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by shifter
[B]
As for surface drives like the Arneson they are not very good around the dock for the reasons they are good at high speeds(if you can keep them straight on a twin)



shifter: what other weaknesses do you think Arneson drives have?

Transoms always have angle, that is how they get the boat out of the mold. The "standard" transom is 13 degrees. I have seen everything from 0 to 16 deg.
Our drives are not like arnesons, they are more like a stern drive meets a surface drive except the WMD it goes under surface also.
Depending on prop placement from the transom and cg, the leverage is greatly effected on the boat. Propeller bite is proportional to trimability on any boat. If you run 1/3 the blade area in the water the acceleration and control of the boat goes down and the speed comes up, less drag. If you burry the drives and get maximum bite you get good acceleration and control and a bad top speed.
The angle of the bottom acts like a trim tab . If you run negative angle of attack to the running surface the force is lift and drag. Saw tooth bottoms run on points insted of surfaces. less drag less trimability. You can still have rocker with a Step bottom. This is good for another thread.
I am not a naval archetect, I can hardly spell it. I can ask some friends for some more tecnical answers on the hull.
All for now.
pat W

Hot Boat did that only with Bravo 1's towards the back of the mag on the cover is Feline Frenzy.

Hey guys, Some of the reason you don't see many arneson drives compared to Mercury outdrives are the engine drive packaging. When you go for a different drive than Mercury the manufactuer are on there own. Most of these guys don't like to do any more R&D than they are already doing. In other words if it aint broke don't fix it! that does not mean that the Arneson drive is not a great drive.