The most uncomfortable debates are presented in this discussion.

1. Are big cats with mega power too dangerous for their own good?
2. Boating and drinking, a recipe for disaster?

The community of speed boaters hate to be presented these questions, because we hate the answers.

Funny thing is everything that has been stated contends to be valid points.

But take our knowledge and experience and set it aside for a second. Let me put some North Carolina country boy logic out there for a second....

If I took some people I know, that don't know our sport, walked them around a 44 foot MTI cat sitting sideways on a trailer, told them the horsepower, weight, and speed capabilities, then told them that boat was going out on a lake, on the busiest weekend of the year, at early evening, heavy boat traffic, doing over 100 mph with both driver and passenger intoxicated to double the legal limit.... well they would say that sounds like a damn disaster waiting to happen.

Bad day of all the wrong things coming into play.

Figured I would add my little 2 cents to this debate. Hearing about this incident I think we can all agree that alcohol was at the least a contributing factor. Anytime it is in somebody's system it will always be a contributing factor as there is plenty of proven scientific evidence that reaction times are slowed along with poor decision making. Even without the introduction of alcohol into somebody's body, the speeds these boats go are very dangerous. I'll try to break it down in numbers..

Most accident re-constructionists list the average reaction time as 1.5 seconds. That is from the time you notice something and can react to it.
Average reaction time (in a car) to hit the brakes is 2.3 seconds. Doesn't sound too long....

At 100 miles per hour (to keep the math simple) a boat or car is traveling 146.667 feet per second. In 1.5 seconds, you will travel 219 feet. 2.3 seconds and you have gone 335.8 feet...

Even when sober, you can see how quickly a situation can get out of hand for even an experienced operator. The faster a boat is traveling, the less time you have to react and correct the action. A 44 foot boat travels 7.6 times its length in 2.3 seconds. Roughly the time you would react and affect a change to the controls.

As anybody who has taken Tres Martin's driver's course will attest he emphasizes simply slowing down greatly increases your odds of survival. The slower speed allows greater control.

Be safe everybody. I do not want to read anymore articles like this for a loooooong time.

You are correct for the most part...99.9% of boats are designed through experience and real world experience, this includes those that are designed using CAD software. CFD is a whole different segment of computer aided engineering from simply drawing the boat in CAD so that it can be milled. CFD especially when it comes to stepped hulls and wing in ground effect (Cats) becomes incredibly complex and expensive due to the multi-phase flow that has to be modeled to accurately represent the mixing of air and water around steps, having the experience in modeling these situations further limit the sources available to carry out the testing.

Even more limiting is creating accurate models that include sea state, there are only 2 or 3 sources in the US for this kind of modeling and the cost is prohibitive for anything other than government projects.

The only high performance boats that I know of off hand that were designed using CFD are the Phenomenon, an example of how not knowing how to properly model something can result in poor results, some of the later Tencara boats, and the newer Ocke Mannerfelt cats. Other high performance boats such as Destriaro, and the bat boats were shaped in part in a wind tunnel.

By in large the cost of high end computer modeling of sea keeping is far to cost prohibitive for performance boat builders to be able to absord into the development of a new model. It is very easy to rack up a six figure bill when doing this type of work.

Today's boats are more efficient designs (lighter, faster even before adding the huge HP stock Mercury powerplants).....all factors moving them closer to flight capabilities.
2 minute mark shows what happens when you mix speed, skill and luck!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i4qlJk00XY

That was HEAVY on the luck... driver should have gotten out and bought a power ball ticket after he changed his underwear.

That was OSO member Steve David. He has retired after a long racing career, super nice guy I met him at a poker run once.

http://thunderboats.ning.com/page/the-steve-david-story

its the old racer's adage - anything you can walk away from is a good day!

That vid clip he can show his great,great, great grandkid's

CLUELESS here, Sorry it still hurts when folks die doing something they love.

CLUELESS here, The assumption that it is all " hit and miss" or "trial and error" scares me and seems reckless! So boys and girls, we are all spending big money to be test dummies for manufacturers that do no engineering, and wait for a fatal accident, (alcohol related or not) to determine faulty or unsafe capabilities and make design changes hoping for the best. Maybe the government should regulate this stuff, no 20K automobile producer would get away with this level of perceived apathy, but million dollar hyper boat companies can wantonly consume wealthy individuals without accountability. PLEASE!

I understand people wanting to know what happened, for many different reasons. I probably wanted to know as badly as anyone since this was one of best friends and was I suppose to be on the boat that day. There have been alot of really good points raised, I especially like the ones about all the accidents where there were no alcohol involved. Richie was a very experience driver and was not pushing the boat when this happened. Accidents happen and these two men have paid the ultimate price. Obviously alot of factors came together at a very bad time to make this happen and there certainly is not one single think we can blame this on. And people trying to do that is only going to cause more pain. Please remember Richie left a wonderful wife and 2 young kids who do look at this site. They are a still hurting from this as many of us are. So please think of them when you are posting and put yourself in their spot and don't post anything you wouldn't want your kids to read if the rolls were reversed.

Well said!

meaningless.

never mind

[QUOTE=44MTI;4546338]I understand people wanting to know what happened, for many different reasons. I probably wanted to know as badly as anyone since this was one of best friends and was I suppose to be on the boat that day. There have been alot of really good points raised, I especially like the ones about all the accidents where there were no alcohol involved. Richie was a very experience driver and was not pushing the boat when this happened. Accidents happen and these two men have paid the ultimate price. Obviously alot of factors came together at a very bad time to make this happen and there certainly is not one single think we can blame this on. And people trying to do that is only going to cause more pain. Please remember Richie left a wonderful wife and 2 young kids who do look at this site. They are a still hurting from this as many of us are. So please think of them when you are posting and put yourself in their spot and don't post anything you wouldn't want your kids to read if the rolls were reversed.[/QUOT

We're always asked to do this, forget what happened until it happens again.

[QUOTE=Interceptor;4546388]WHY should other boaters on a forum, discussing the issues, be careful about what we say in front of the family, when the owner of the boat in discussion didn't care?
Jus' Sayin'

That's not fair! PERIOD.

respectfully , that's not at all what he said. He asked to please use civil discourse in discussing it. the last hing anyone needs is gloating or someone saying "told ya so" especially to a child that lost their parent. if any of us for one second think that his wife and family don't realize the loss, I think they would be sorely mistaken...

[QUOTE=Nuke427;4546393]I never said that, someone else did and it got tagged to me.

I understand the need for respect for the family.

[QUOTE=Interceptor;4546403]You are absolutely right. I will correct. Don't know why it did that.

I have spent more than 30 years in product development and testing. Trust me when I say everything is trial and error in every product development process including the use of CAD, FEA and CFD. I am an engineer but that is just the minimum degree to get into the business.
No way I could design a 180 mph boat without years of experience and testing. The CAD/FEA/CFD would just be tools to help validate each step along the way from going 120 mph then 130 mph, etc.
There is a good book on this subject called "To Engineer is Human" all should read it to understand my point. Most engineering disasters over time can be explained by a simple conclusion of the book......success leads to failure and failure leads to success.....
God bless those and their families that have lost there lives pushing the limits so the rest of us can learn.
I am also a student of aerodynamics and have watched the crash videos many times in this thread. The CFD modeling would be extremely complex as it it involves drives, props, thrust, lift,......but the aerodynamics of the crash once the cat leaves the water appears to be quite simple. Center of lift and center of gravity need to be close like on an airplane for the boat to "fly" straight. On a cat they are typically far apart so it flips with the rear heavy CG. Others have pointed this out so not a new revelation.
I don't have a solution but am confident a next generation of designers will.

great book for sure, read it while I was getting my degree (as most students should). been a while may have to dig it out for a ready read.

Mr. Jusabum since you don't list a boat or location, who are you and what do you have to contribute to this site? From what I see your posts are nothing but rude childish keyboard cowboy antics. Find another sand box to play in if you have nothing constructive to add to the OSO family.

Just Sayin'

Maybe his screen name is not just a random coincidence but a cry for help?

Engineered in a wind tunnel, splashed off a Boston Whaler, built from 30 years of experience? Does any of that really matter? The truth (in my opinion) is that accidents are going to happen through mechanical failure, operator error, swerving to miss a dog, whatever . At 100 miles an hour, your chances of survival are greatly diminished, no matter what the cause or who designed the hull. I have never understood this infatuation with going 100+ mph.

I think everyone can agree that drunk driving is a bad idea.


Please do not think that because your boat is not as fast that it is OK to captain intoxicated. It is not OK.

it here after referred to as " THE BOAT "" is an air plane , a jet , a flying wing , a rocket , a bird , whatever they fly through the air / they sure as hell do not run in water other then take off and landing / so when we hit these awe inspiring speeds WHERE is one dam single control ? we can not count the prop rudder when they constantly fly , that is the elephant that nobody will admit to / boat companies sales guys do have a responsibility to the customers passengers

You have to factor in the human into the equation. Drunk, half drunk or sober, most of us here are type 'A' people. We like to go fast. we like to press the limits.

You can put all the NASA rocket science technology you want into a cat that can go 200 safely. As soon as you accomplish that, as soon as you make a cat as safe aa a minivan going to the grocery store, we are going to figure out how to make a 225 then 250 mph cat that is once again unstable.

Because thats who we are. Minivan rides to the grocery store are not exciting. The risk and beating the risk is the thrill.

If it wasnt for this drive and determination, we would still be sitting in caves eating sprouts and berries.

A vee hull can also launch off a wave or wake.

v hull does NOT = flying wing / so its the unsafe part you guys crave / no reason we cant have a cunard wing - a moveable wing as a control at front and rear of said tunnel

[QUOTE=jusabum;4546389]Because it's the right thing to do for the family. If you don't understand that your parents didn't do their job raising you.
Secondly the owner was a very caring guy, and would give the shirt off his back. So maybe you shouldn't make comments like that about someone you obviously didn't know.

Bottom line is the initial post was about the very complete investigation/report regarding this accident/tragedy. Lives were lost, families are devistated and mistakes were made. I hope that we can all respect this for the lessons we all can take from this and do our best to prevent this from happening again. Will the moderators consider closing any further inputs and leaving it here for others to read and learn from. Respectfully and w/o prejudice..

Everyone, Somehow I'm getting tagged for a post I did not write.
Sorry someone is doing this.

[QUOTE=44MTI;4546520]That was not me, somehow someone is tagging other peoples posts to me. Sorry this is happening.
ed crippen

[QUOTE=Interceptor;4546544]It happened to me in another thread, not sure what's going on with the quote function.

Did it right there^^^^^^

Ed, I think it's when we're quoting a quote in a quote that this happens. I sure wasn't quoting you earlier and I did quickly go in and edit it but your name did show up in the box and I think it's because I hit reply with quote on a post jusabum posted which was quoting you.... If that makes sense...

[QUOTE=Interceptor;4546544][QUOTE=Wildman_grafix;4546545]actually guys its not that someone tagged you or did something shifty its that early on someone quoted one of you but edited the quote but did not edit the tag properly and threw off they way they show up in the feed here. If you see something like this

[QUOTE=Interceptor;4546544]

above the quote and the name is wrong withing the quote this is where it starts and it can kind of cascade down the chain. Its just a simple overlook that people sometimes unknowingly make when editing a quote down to highlight a specific part of it. In the above string i multi quoted and as you can see it shifted the brackets and messed up the order or tags

Haven't been here in eons, but not much has changed. Fast toys involve risk, people that get a rush out of risk like fast toys. As has been the case for awhile, phragle is post on.

The larger problem with episodes like this is that they typically happen when others that may not share their enthusiasm for risk-taking adrenaline rushes are present in droves. Way back in the old days, the country was far less populated than it is now, both on the highways and on the water. We all want what we all want and like to do what we all want to do. But as the population increases, we need to seriously consider the risks to others.

In this case, it didn't involve others. But it easily could have. I was out in the boat one gorgeous evening. Moonlit, calm waters, gorgeous. Just like I had dreamed of from boating nights in the 70's and 80's. I love the lake at night, always have. We were cruising back from dinner, going about 20 mph, bow down so I could see ahead. I was the only one that didn't drink that night, I was the captain. A boat came by us Starboard through a fairly narrow pass at what I'd estimate to be at least 80 mph. I felt his spray when he hit our wake. He was so close my knees shook.

I knew he had most likely came from the very same place we had just left some 30 minutes before, likely drunk. The boat was probably 15' or more longer than mine, so any impact would have been fatal for all six in my boat. I sold the boat, and have not been on the water since. With the fear of boating at night, I had no reason to continue

I don't boat at night anymore, but that is a another subject.

I have never driven a cat either as I have no experience with them.

I look at it this way. We all have ran our boats to the limits and sometime pushed it a bit. I will never put anyone down for doing something that I have done myself. These guys were enjoying the day and letting it rip. Who hasn't done that? These guys were seasoned boaters like many of us. Think back on all things you survived. I am saddened for the families and the two who died. It could have been me many times. God Bless