Sooo...if you have a pilot that doesn't mind getting a few bumps in the Fountain, is it as fast in the rough?

Re: TOP GUN, CAFE', BULLET
 

I suspect the folks at Powerplay, AT, Pantera et al. think highly of their boats also...

Didn't say the Fountain wasn't fast in the rough, that's relative

But .... just think what a pilot in a Cigarette, who doesn't mind getting a few bumps, can do :D

Comparing similar sized Cigs to Fountains is like comparing red grapes to green grapes....they are both grapes, but look different, handle different and the cost is different. Every boater on this board has different needs and requirements...in some cases, the Fountain would be a good choice and in other cases, the Cigarette would be a good choice. In my particular case and boating in the Pacific Ocean, I got fried and beat up trying to keep up with Jeffrey in his Top Gun when I had my 38 Fountain Fever.

Feverish had Ruckus by five miles per hour but after a 32 mile run back from Catalina at two in the afternoon in bumpy, windy conditions, I was lucky to be even with Jeff. His ride home was effortless, comfortable and DRY!!! My ride was wild, bumpy, shaky and very wet!!!! He would just come back through the harbor and laugh at me....I finally got tired of the abuse, both mental and physical and reached out for a Top Gun, yes, slower in calm lake like waters, but in ocean and big water conditions, much easier on the spine....and kidney!!!!

I really enjoyed the hell out of my Fountain....over 1500 hours...it was a great handling boat and a lot of fun to run, it just couldn't take the day in and day out abuse of ocean water....busted stringers, busted fuel tanks(plural), busted cabin liners, busted bolsters and other obstacles. I pretty much had to rebuld the boat for my type of useage.

With the Cigarette....turn key and go....never had a problem with the hull, tanks, stringers, cabin, anything....in the identical water conditions. For my type of boating, that says a lot!!!!!

Again, for me personally in my type of boating conditions...gotta go with the Top Gun...

DMan....and the D is for ...That Cig is Durable!!!!!!

I guess I am just allot younger than most on this board, speed is it. I can appreciate the appeal of a Cigarette, the nastalja sitting at the docks, but that is sitting. For me I like the look of a Fountain better anyway, And they are just plain faster. They are faster, they are faster, they are faster! I said it three times because thats about how much more money you would have to dump in your Cig motor to run Fountain speeds. Ecspecially on the early to mid 90's rigs which much of us own because they are some what affordable. And what is this rough water ****? In a 42 Fountain, just hammer it and go. Hey if I were Reggie, I would hang up the wig with chin strap and hire Cig's marketing director, or clothing designer at least, I'll give you Cig boys that. But speed=Fountain!!Midnight:cool:

OK Midnight Rider....you asked for it, so get it straight...Faster...yes, in a pond. Better bult...read my thread...I was taking it easy on you beak boaters by comparing green to red grapes.....more like black vs. white...I seem to recall the Cigarette Virgin and the Virgin Gladiator winning the world championships in back to back years...so, where do you get faster??? Does safety have anything to do with a better boat, does quality? does leaky fuel tanks? does cracked stringers? does broken down headliners? Last I checked, they called them offshore performance boats, so where do you think these boats should be tested......some five mile long river with a no wake zone????? There are quite a few dummies in the world that can build the faster boats....just drop me a note after these boats are five years old....you probably will need an underwater camera!

The look and the style of a boat is an individual's choice...I can't say anything about that, but when I see the new Fountains with their big family sport windshield????? You really think that is better looking??? Just get in a Fountain and hammer it and go??? You are not serious....don't you want it to last a year or two. Just go to the Fountain thread and read about the dissatisfaction with the Fountain factory and the way it services its customers....some positive thoughts, but I see more negative thoughts!!! So.....faster, faster, faster.....does not equate to better, better, better!!!!! Been down both roads...keep that hammer down all the time....it is good for the economy!!!

Take care and best of luck ;)

DMan

Re: Re: CIG VS. FOUNTAIN
 

Then you have to spend it Anna Nicole Smith :D

I am with D-Man on this one...I have said this before but at the DSM Poker Run in 6-8 foot swells and an 86 mile course in the Pacific Ocean we were the second boat to finish behind a 42 Tiger. There were alot of Fountains there that day that were faster that my 80 mph Cig, but they could not run hard enough in the big water to keep up. I ran flat out, tabs up the entire course only backing off the throttles when we were airborne. After driving the new 35 Fountain this past weekend I now know why they could not run with us.

Hey DMan, next time your in Chicago look me up...I'll show you what a 9600 lbs. Fountain with twins and bravos can tackle.

No doubt the 38 Cigs are my favorite 38' boat...I would ride in nothing else.

Bring on Apache feast!:p

You boys just set off my smoke detector with all the heat that come'n off this thread. I'll tell ya what I do know and that is I got 6-more boat payment to make before my azz is back in the drink.

Capeche.

joey

:D :D :D :D :D

The team Virgin Cigarettes showed everybody up in the rough water !!!! ............Brownie & D-man.....Pretty much said it ALL !

Here I Go!
 

First you must consider your criteria, are you talking brand new, or are you talking used. Let me start by saying anyone would be a fool to discount any particular issue with Cig, they are a sweet boat. But If you are buying new with no real budget in mind, be it a 37-38, 42, 47, or 50+ there is only one boat to buy, and its not a Fountain, and is not a Cigarette, its an Outerlimits. There is no question in the new market what to buy if money is no object. My next boat will not be a Fountain it will be an Outerlimits, 37 Stilleto, but save that for another thread. So then we step down a level and examine a large market in the used boat industry, the 80-100k 32+ offshore. This is allot of money for me, it is for most. I cant buy what I really want right now based on dollars(and some *******s that ran a couple of jets into two big building to make some insane political statement) or the slow economy. Now I want a boat that looks good, one that is at least 38', and will be at least as fast as the smaller boat that I just sold 80+mph. Now there are a bundle of choices out there, Cigs, scarabs, Sonics, but I'm seeing boats with even twin 600's that wont run 80. Well I am not buying a 90K boat to dump another 12-15k to get it moving. Then this leads me to Fountain. They are sharp looking, at 10 years old not dated looking, are running 85k-95k and will go 80+ with mild trips all day long. So that is why I now own a Fountain (42 with trip 600's) and it flys. Essentially I passed on the Cig of the same vintage not because it wasn't a good boat, but with even 525's it only runs maybe 70. Any that just is boring in a big boat. As far as water conditions, my boat will run 90 in good choppy water, and 6-8's with fuel and people, it will still run in the 80's not pushing it real hard. That is an incredible boat to drive at high speeds, and there is a huge difference between 70 and 90, let me tell ya. As far as product quality, my boat looks like brand new, my only complaint is cabin height. But I usually mange to drink myself to sleep when we stay on it so I never know the difference. Besides if I wanted a good cabin, I should have bought a Sea Ray. Cigarettes are one of my favorite boats, but they definately lost a little appeal when I started to realize in the used models I was looking at they really were not very fast. I like to go fast, as soon as I went fast in my boat, I wanted to go faster " what I can I do to make this thing go 100". Believe that I am plotting out a winter strategy to see triple digits next summer. In used 90-96 models lets say Fountain=Speed. Midnight:cool:

Ridden in both, worked on both, driven both. Founts/Cigs. 35's, 38's 42's Like all of them. (no steps) Like the freeboard on the Cigs, like the agility on the fountains. My only real complaint on the Fount, is stooping to go into the cabin. The Cig, you always need to a screw driver to tighten up all scews that keep coming loose.

On a Cig you have to bring a screw driver??????????????


Whats up with that comment??

I have owned both, a 33' ICBM Fountain and presently own a 38 Top Gun. both are great boats although I feel the Cig is a far superior vessel:D :D :D


Just my not so humble opinion
:p

Now I thought Screw Driver=older Baja's? I used to go around my old Baja everytime I went out to tighten up everything from cleats, to the dash panel, cockpit liner, everything. I had that snap on rachet screw driver and a snap on rechargable impact screw driver. But I still miss that old boat, though I would not have thought that of a Cig? Midnight

the screwdriver comment is not a fair comparison fountain screws don't work loose cause the come prerusted into place.:D

Sutphen

Helmwurst!!! Bring a Screwdriver??? Maybe to prey your fingernails out of the dash while I run hard in the big stuff. I am not suppose to have an opinion considering I sell both, but lets just say certain boats match certain water. And when mother nature decides to make the Pacific a bumpy ride. There is no question what boat I take out!

IDR- How are boat sales right now? What is selling good? What is that line of boats you have, I think its called Mustang? Midnight:cool:

Midnight...now I hear you....in your recent thread, you just added a number of stipulations and conditions that might make the Fountain a more logical choice....at least in your case and in many other cases. I am simply answering the topic of the thread...without the stipulations and conditions. Again, I am not bashing the Fountain product...had one for eight years. I am talking from a perspective of experience...having owned both boats...both being 38 footers...well, one is a 37 and a half and the other was a 34. Along with those two boats, I have driven the following Fountains a number of times due to my past relationship with Dick Simon....I have drilven a 24 Fountain, a 27, a 29 single and a 29 twin, a 32, a 35 with stock power and wild power, a 38 with stock power and wild power and a 38 raised deck, a 42 with twin stock and twin wild and with stock triples and wild triples and have almost 15 hours in the Ohio Steel 42 race boat, a 47 flat deck and a 47 raised deck and a 51 triple with surface drives. On the Cigarette end, I have driven a number of 35's, a number of 38's and a couple of 42 Tigers. Besides seat time, I have been able to observe how these boats handle the ocean water and how well they hold up.....again, I am just speaking from my experiences, I have yet to see a two year old Fountain that gets used in offshore conditions that doesn't have stress cracks, structural damage or leaky fuel tanks....just the way it is with a mass constructed boat. This information was gathered long before the startup of OSO....reading this site for the past couple of years just confirms what I have experienced and found out first hand. Because I have owned both boats and ridden them hard in the Pacific is the reason I replied to this thread....it is something that I am comfortable talking about. Hope my comments makes sense.....yours does to me. Take care.

DMan

DM-How fast was that Ohio Steel Boat? With your obvious knowledge and having seen many fountains did or have you noticed that crack in the front left of the cockpit lip in many boats. That would be my only structural complaint, my old 42 had that crack, the one I have now has it, and my buddy's has it. What do you think causes it? Midnight

Whattttt???
 

There is really no comparison. Cigarette is Cigarette and Fountain is Fountain.

But I like Cigarette better, higher freeboard, classic lines.

This is like comparing a 69' Camaro to a new Honda Civic.


Midnight, I am curious to see what your project is going to be? As I mentioned before, get rid of that solid cam, go for a roller set-up and put on some Merlin Heads. I be you make close to 700hp. with just that alone.

Midnight, did they ever fix the cracked stringer in the engine compartment?

Panther my pm wont work. Cracked stringer? I think either it is fixed ,or I missed it. Let me know where you think it is so I can double check during my winter refab. I'm thinking about boxes, along with head work via JIM V. I will also be remoldeling Frankensteins basement:D , that place where those motors sit.

Please feel free to enlighten me to any other possible areas of interest. I started with stereo upgrades on my list when I bought it, now I am at about 15k and 5000 man hours worth of work. And the boat still runs and looks great, go figure.

MidnightRider....I know the crack that you are talking about...I am not a structural expert and I cannot answer that question....I heard that it had something to do with the radius of the curve and the depth of the fiberglass....pure speculation...sorry.

Concerning the old Ohio Steel boat...a buddy of mine bought it three or four years ago and completely refurbished the entire boat...from bow to stern....every hose, pipe, nut and screw was replaced...the hull was painted, patched up and blueprinted, the entire interior, upholstry, gauges, wire...the whole works...close to a $400,000 refurbishment. The boat was renamed NADA CHANCE after my friends company. It was absolutely beautiful and he let me run it in the 2000 Catalina Ski Race.

It was a fairly heavy boat....staggered with 850's to 900's...an absolute work of art. It was absolutely the sweetest ride I have ever been in!!! Rock solid...not one vibration when you hit a swell or wave, it just busted right through the water...had a forward water tank for the rough stuff with monster offshore plates. It went in the high 90's....just the best ride ever. Had a three man cockpit bolster seating arrangement with no extra room to breathe or relax...a true racing setup.

Not practical for pleasure use, but for that one time ride....it was the best!!!!! I think it is still for sale at Dick Simon Marine and if someone wanted the most awesome Catalina Ski Race Boat or an awesome poker run boat, this is the animal!!!!! Again, everything on it was completely redone or brand spanking new!

Take care...DMan

DSM got rid of Nada Chance about a month ago. That was probably one of the nicest looking Fountains I have seen. They had a lay out on it in Family And Performance Boating Magazine a couple months ago.

Devil Man and Midnight...great stuff without bashing each other's product. That's what makes this board great, different points of view, each has merits. Midnights comments make perfect sense as does D-Mans. I guess it comes down to what you have a need for.

D-Man...How does the deadrise and entry angles differ on the boats? Does that account for the different rides in the rough?

Indy.....the back four feet or so of a Fountain has a flat pad, so when you are running at close to full speed the boat sits on the pad which gives it more speed....the only downfall to the pad is while running in a rough water environment and flying the boat, the Fountain lands on this flat surface which creates a harder landing....to some degree...just depends on how rough and bumpy it is.

The Cigarette is a true deep V....all the way to the transom, so when you air the Cig and land, it knifes through the water on re-entry which gives you an easy landing without any jolts. This just creates a different ride in the two boats.

The other major difference in comparing my two boats is that the Cigarette is just over 2,000 pounds heavier which really makes a difference in the medium to nasty conditions.

Hope this makes sense.

DMan

Fred,
I see your point, but the last 42 Tiger I looked at had runs in the paint. My Fountain doesn't. So, generally speaking, your statement is true, as Cig is custom, Fountain is not. But, a half-assed job can be accomplished by anyone, from a manufacturer, painter etc.

When you own a business and employees do things, you learn that poop happens, and unless QC is 100%, things can get missed.


DMan,
BINGO! You said it, bro. It's all about what you're looking for. You're a smart guy (gulp,cough, hack) LOL! j/k


Also, I doubt there is any boat made that doesn't need the screws tightened on it at some point.

I also see the way the initial poster of this thread is leaning:D:D

NADA CHANCE was renamed GOTTA CHANCE and Carlo Cassi skied behing it this year with Scot Conrad driving. They took Third overall in the Catalina Ski Race.
Midnight, What do you want to know about the Mustang Boats. I have alot of time in them in some BAD SEA'S. The Assies built a great boat. As for D-Mans opinions on the different boats, lets just say he is one of the few locals I dont dispute with. The rest of you are fair game:D To respect OSO I will not give out a big list of the lines I carry untill they get my advertising check. It is unfair to those who have paid for this service. Lets just say I carry all the Best!!!;)

32Fever....Sometimes I even surprise myself! And you are right about the screws....they all need tightening or a big dab of epoxy on the screw tip.

Sorry about Nada Chance....it is now Gotta Chance and like I said, it is one sweet ride....the stringer system forward of the cokcpit is a work of art!!!!!!

Have fun boys!

DMan

How does the new cigs w/twin steps compare to the fountains, I have not heard anyone speak of them. The 35 Cig twin step has a listed weight of 8800 pounds wich is pretty close to the 35 fountain twin step. Which boat is faster with similar speed and do the new cigs ride as well in rough water as the older hulls did. I know one big difference is in the price of the two. When cig re designed their hull did the lose the ride performance (I heard it did increase the speed of about 8-10 mph vs. the old hull with similar power)

Dammit! I was hoping to go this entire day thinking I knew everything in the world. I was sure on the weight differences on the two boats but didn't catch Cig center line, V, all the way to the transom. Part of my happiness with the Fountain is comparing it to my 27 Baja I ran in big water, and mean some crazy lk MI water, for 5 years. The Fountain seems like a solid missle in 6's. I ran in my buddies Apache and other big V's before buying one ( thats why I bought one) but it is hard to really judge a boat until you have been at the helm for awhile to get a feel for how the boat reacts. Lake MI stirs up some rough sloppy stuff that can be a challenge to a driver and his timing. I going to half to get someone to let me drive a 37 Stiletto, I really want to know what that boat feels like.

This board on occasion looses it true focus now and then when people begin to forget it is a great place for the sharing of information. I have met more nice people here, learned more about boats here, and passed more quality time at Open Houses reading and writing here than I care to acknowledge. Thanks to all those sane, insane, knowledgable, funny, and sick individuals on this board that have a good time and do not make everthing a personal fight or battle. MIdnight:cool:

Besides if just five years ago you would have told me I would own a 90mph 42' boat I would have probably died laughing. Thank you Lord

Great thoughts and ideas MidnightRider...You can take someone out in six foot seas and they will tell the next guy that your boat runs like **** and it is a rough ride!!! Then you take that guys neighbor out on your boat on one of those tranquil, calm days and he goes back to the other guy and says your boat runs and rides like a freakin Cadilac!!!! There are so many variables involved in boating...size, weight, power, conditions, driver, etc.

Best of luck to you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DMan

If i was looking at "New" There is NO way i could justify what Cig gets for a boat !! But since i always buy used...It helps me when it comes time to sell !!! My first Offshore ride was on a Cig with a guy who is "Ate up with Cigs" !!!! I guess it rubbed off on me...

This has been a GREAT thread....A little good natured kidding but no Big egos getting uglie !!! This could be a fun winter...:D :p

BACK4MORE, Is the lake really that calm ?:p my choice the cig.they have some APACHE in their blood lines.;)

Hey ... Apache has some Cigarette in THEIR bloodlines ;)

Didn't want to stir the pot any more, but what the hell it almost winter, here goes: ;)

You've discussed the merits and deficiencies of each boat including weight, ride, beam, hull design, performance, balance, price, suitability, cabin space, style, on and on, right?

One final question:
Which one would you rather have if you were say halfway between the Bahamas and Florida and the weather turned deadly unexpectedly. 25-30 knot winds, 10-12 foot seas, you know. Remember, you're life may depend on it?...

Let's hear it...Inquiring minds are awaiting. :cool: