OT - Stereo Upgrades
 

Guys, I am very unhappy with the so-called premium stereo that came in my boat.

The head unit is Clarion and I think it is a good unit. I would like to keep it and replace ALL the speakers and amps.

Looking for some recomendations on speakers and amps as for brand, series etc. that you guys have found to work well in a marine environment and that look nice.

Currently I have 4 tweeters, 2 ten inch speakers, 4 five inch speakers and two cross overs in the cockpit area. I want to replace all of them with the same size speakers to fill the holes.

There are two amps in the cuddy, not sure of brand or rating, they need to go, there is one Clarion powered sub in the cuddy, and two small cube type speakers.

Help me lay out something that will rock!:D

Thanks Mark

I'm sure Audiofn will chime in soon and get ya goin' in the right direction. I think there is another guy around named Frank??? He'll probably add to that as well.

Hang tight!!!!

:D Dock

I can't believe that you have not talked to barry (lake slut) yet he is prety smart on that stuff good luck.

Mark

Well, I'll throw my 2 cents in...
 

...I just upgraded to 4 MB Quart Nautic separates that I got from Andy Buzz on the boards...those speakers are nothing short of amazing. Very precise, and a decent amount of mid-bass for and I/B setup.

Andy hooked me up, when others couldn't get the speakers. You would need to enlarge the holes, but IMHO, you should consider that for any separates you purchase, as the 6 1/2" components are generally louder than the 5 1/4".

As for the subs, I am running 4 Infinity Perfect 10's in a .65 cu box each. Those subs work well for boats, because they don't require really big boxes, and offer some water resistance. (poly).

I am running all JBL amps...IMHO, the best $/watt out there...

My system will move the hair on your arms...not bad for some little 10's in a 23' boat... ;)

It's been my experience that subs in the cockpit will hit harder than subs in the cuddy, which sound "boomier". I think your choice of subs will depend on how much room you have to work with.

SP
 

my hustler came with the 6 1/4 poly planar ,the tweaters burned out on 6 of them . they replaced them , i just dont turn them up as loud any more, had a friend had same prob also.

The X series head unit is great, My buddy has a 01 33 outlaw and his system is as follows 2- rockford fosgate db1500 on the subs 2- power 800.4 on mids and tweets, 6- 61/2'' mb quart components and 4 JL audio 8'' micro subs all hidden in the sides of the cockpit the amps are in the cab. under the sink, it freakn' rocks

I just sold my 36 Outlaw and can certainly suggest a tried a tested system. In the front, I suggest a pair of BAAB 10 inch full range speakers in the lower kicks. I also suggest a pair of MBQuart speakers up front ( 6 1/2 inch ) to bring our some clarity. I have a great spot for two ten inch subwoofers in a 36 Outlaw that is completely hidden and does not take any storage space away. In the rear I usually go with a couple of pairs of BAABS. For amplification, Rockford Fosgate is the most durable and uses the least energy to run. The BD series of amps are efficient and powerful.

I have tons of amps, subs, and speakers in stock for car, boat or home theatre and will help out any OSO member with advice or a great deal. Feel free to contact me at (813)882-8477 with whatever you need.

Andy Buzz

I have Babb 4 Babb 6x9's in my boat and they are fantastic. They put out a chitload of base----so much so that there is a warning about making sure they are mounted securely for this reason. They have good high and mids also. I got them from Audiofn and was very impressed.

The Babb are a very nice speaker. If you use them, I would suggest using a pair or two pair of component tweeters.

I am also looking at upgrading the system. I have seen that the Baab speakers are all loud speakers that give a huge range of music, even the 10 in. from like 30 - 1,000 khz, instead of the typical subs ranging from 25 - 200. Does the bass still sound good on the speakers with that kind of range? I know they are much cheaper than something like an alumapro sub. Anybody running those, I have read alot on them and they seem like a awesome sub for a boat. just asking thanks. DK

Unlike Andy Buzz I have not had the greatest luck with the Babb 10" full range speaker. Not to say he is stearing anyone wrong that has just been my experience. He and I both agree 100% on the Rockford amps. They are very durrable and take a beating!!! Dock Holiday it is hard to say how to make it better over the internet. You may just have some set up issues and what not. Could be some out of phase speakers and who knows what else. If you want to call me I can give you some suggestions to check out the set up and hopefully help you make what ever decision needs to be made. There is a lot that goes into a good sounding system.

Jon

I've seeen babbs in cig. Do they sound as good as they look? I was thinking 4 babbs or 2 8" in back and MB Quart seperates in the front. Is there a 4 channel amp that is sufficient? Andy I'll call you.

Cool your jets Mark. I've got this one covered:cool:

get rid of the clarion head unit too, they sound good but used a cheap eye and the cd will almost always start to skip in about two years. mb quart component sys. is one of the cleanest sounding systems.I would never run anything sony,kenwood makes very high quality head units. if you are running subs you may want to look into a matched set of jl audio subs and amp. PPI also makes a very good amp. .02

martin.

Hey Dock- Livin' Loud here, I met you on the St. Augustine poker run the 386 sonic with the stereo. There is alot of good product-that will give you the sound your looking for. In boats your most important concern should be your system design and installation. Most stereos in boats get alot of abuse-heat, low voltage, water, out playing your neigbors. This must be address durning system design-then you can plug in the product. I'll be glad to help you.My cell# is 334-546-2100 Allen

living loud is right on the money. 90% of your sound is install and settings. with the right power match and setup i've heard junk speakers sound good. but if you are a complete audiophile you can tell the difference in equip. I worked in the car audio buisness for years and there are alot of people that run equip. like fosgate and sony"not trying to offend anyone" but when you compare to a true up level system the two arent even i the same league.

For Mids and Highs go for the MB Quartz, you will be very impressed. as for subs I run 2 10" Kicker Comp in sealed boxes, fit under bolsters.

** Make sure you have more than enough power for everything, and sealed subs will make more base than freeair always, my opinion about 2X as much.****

Thanks guys,

My internet connection has been down since 4PM yesterday, so this is the first time I have seen all the great responses.

Barry and I have been in touch and he is coming over to the house tomorrow to look at the boat and make some suggestions.

He is in agreement with you guys that MB Quartz is the way to go.

Allen "Living Loud", thanks for the offer. I wish you were closer. All I can say is that your boat "ROCKS":D . That has to be the best stereo system I have seen on a boat yet. The custom speaker enclosures are awesome. Hope to see you guys again soon.

Mark

The ten inch BAABs must be crossed over properly to get good sound. We use them as a loudspeaker similiar to a system designed for a night club. Remember, a boat system design is for outdoor sound and it takes extra power and extra speaker cone area to achieve volume. An audiophile system would distort before it sounded good in a boat. Many factors and experience will result in good sound. You still need subs and a good pair or 6 1/2 like MBQuarts to achieve great sound.

Andy Buzz

Hey Buzz, I have a couple questions, first how do you cross the 10" babbs over and what power do you usually run to them, since they are only rated for 100watts RMS? I have also seen the 5 1/4 component sets of MB Quarts range from like $200 - $800 and there are like 8 different levels of just the 5 1/4's, which ones do you usually use? Also have you ever used the 3 way component set with the 8", 4" , and 1" ? Curious how that sounds. Thanks Darren

What about those Sony Xplod amps, seem to have most watt/$ value, not sure about the quality per amp though.

An amp is an amp...
 

...and a watt is a watt. An amplified signal is an amplified signal...most agree that the human ear cannot distinguish different amps of the same actual wattage...

However, quality comes into play on a couple points:

1. Internal components- Quality components will mean the amp will last longer (not self-destruct), and make the amp more efficient (less current draw) with less heat buildup.
2. Features- Do you need a crossover; external bass boost, or subsonic filter?
3. Ratings- The higher quality amps have an RMS rating equal to (or in some cases- less than) their actual output.

I think the ratings are most important. If you follow the car audio mags, the overrated amps are generally the ones with the cheaper internal components. If an amp says "3,000 watts" on the outside, but only has a 40 amp fuse, you know something is rotten in Denmark.

For example, let's say you've narrowed you search down to 3 class d amps- the JBL BP1200.1, the Sony XM 1600GD, or the Fosgate 1000BD from www.bsless.com

JBL BP1200.1- a 70%+ efficient amp that puts out around 1,300 watts for $270

Sony XM1600GD- a 65%+ efficient amp that puts out around 900 watts for $246

Fosgate 1000BD- a 65%+ efficient amp that puts out around 1,100 watts for $470

The math is pretty easy to do....but it doesn't take into account whether you are doing it yourself, or paying a dealer (how much support you need). Remember, car audio is like boats- the dealer will most likely try to sell you what they carry.

Daren,
There are many ways to crossover your speakers. Most good amps have a built in 24 db/octave internal but if they dont you can simply add an F-mod that goes on your rca input or use an external crossover such as an AudioControl. The BAABS like high power like a Rockford Fosgate 750x 4 channel to run all mids. The MBQuart 3 way sounds awesome but is a paper cone designed for ultimate sound quality not the marine environment. Have a few brand new pairs left for $248.50. For marine MBQuart only offers two models and are both 6 1/2 inch.

Regarding amps, there are many factors to look at other than dollar per watt. Not to get way to technical but in addition to wattage you have current and the quality of sound output. A watt is not a watt as the full equation involves much more. In the same sense a boat is not a boat.

Regarding efficiency, current draw to output is just one measure. Class D amps were introduced three years ago to offer cheaper high power amps. It was coincidental that they drew less power using a chip rather than many hungry mosfet transistors. When power consumption is measured at low volumes what I found is that Class D amps actually draw more power than the common AB technology. That is why Rockford uses there proprietary bd technology. Another interesting factor is that cheap class d amps clip and weld speaker voicecoils hence ruining a good set of subs. Any amp can make noise but good sound and long term performance is another story.

As a dealer of about 30 different brands of home, car and marine sound systems, I can benefit from the sale of **** or shinola as a profit dollar is a profit dollar. But the true benefit comes from having a satisfied customer and ultimately people can buy whatever they choose to believe is best for them but those that buy what they really need later don't have to backtrack to cover the defficiencies of the system design.

A Sony amp is ok or a JBL is ok and many people are satisfied with even more basic brands that I sell but there is no comparison to the many better choices. Is there a difference is a 450 horsepower small block and a 450 horsepower big block?

Andy, could you please explain the "quality of sound output"?

Since you are in the industry, you must be familiar with Richard Clark's (Car Sound and Performance Editor) $10,000 amp challenge (Where he compares all classes of amps, and challenges the manufacturer and/or dealers to tell the difference)?

What is this proprietary technology? I am a little confused.

Andy, this is an interesting statement. Since clipping is nothing more than a distorted signal, I am curious to know how clipping can "weld a voice coil". Are you talking about overdriving a speaker?

I myself was once in the industry, but chose to take a different path. Like good engine builders, I also utilized tried and true recipes...but I am no longer limited by sales goals.

I have nothing against Fosgate, they make decent stuff. They run hot, but they are decent. It's been my experience that dealers continue to push Fosgate...probably because Fosgate doesn't support internet retailers (read that as "price competition"). Has Fosgate got some competition for value? You bet. Just out of curiousity, how much do you sell the 1000BD for?

As in any purchase, the informed consumer will have the advantage. Would you go into an engine builder and lay down your hard-earned cash without checking the parts out?

Yes, and just as some boat manufacureres make false marketing claims to boost their product in the market, so do audio manufacturers...eventually, the sales myths, voodoo and urban legends will sort themselves out from fact.

some of the things i found wrong in this post

1. Internal components- Quality components will mean the amp will last longer (not self-destruct), and make the amp more efficient (less current draw) with less heat buildup.


real life
=better components will actually make the amp less efficient(more current draw) and buildup more heat

...and a watt is a watt. An amplified signal is an amplified signal...most agree that the human ear cannot distinguish different amps of the same actual wattage


real life=
the human ear can distinguish but not what most people listen for, the main thing you notice different is the phase because the components do not have high tolerance.


JBL BP1200.1- a 70%+ efficient amp that puts out around 1,300 watts for $270

Sony XM1600GD- a 65%+ efficient amp that puts out around 900 watts for $246

Fosgate 1000BD- a 65%+ efficient amp that puts out around 1,100 watts for $470


real life=
are you trying to tell me that the jbl puts out 200 more watts for $200 less? (well i have a bravo that can handle more power than a #6 i will sell it for 50k how many do you want)


Regarding efficiency, current draw to output is just one measure. Class D amps were introduced three years ago to offer cheaper high power amps. It was coincidental that they drew less power using a chip rather than many hungry mosfet transistors. When power consumption is measured at low volumes what I found is that Class D amps actually draw more power than the common AB technology


real life=
was the three years ago when you started in car audio or when you think the class d was introduced? I had a class d ten years ago
class d draws less at any power level than ab


That is why Rockford uses there proprietary bd technology

real life=same stuff different name

. Another interesting factor is that cheap class d amps clip and weld speaker voicecoils hence ruining a good set of subs.

real life= technically a class d signal is a clip cheap or not, the person "welds the coil" not the amp

NOW WE HAVE TO MANY EXPERTS OF AUDIO ON HEAR
 

Now this is getting interesting with all these audio guys on the board. I look at systems in a VERY different way perhaps then some of you, that being what is important to the CUSTOMER. Watts are not Watts as has been stated before. Was the amp rated at a total harmonic distorsion of X or Y, was it rated at 12 volts or 14.4, Does it have a Regulated or Non regulated power supply. If all amps are the same was the case then whey do peoples eyes light up when they sit down in my Car and listen to the Zapco amp and CD Technology subs and speakers? It does not sound so good when I have any other amp in there and I have tried a few (soundstream, rockford, Orion, Audio Art, and more) That amp at 25 watts X 4 is $1600 bucks!!!! It has variable noise gates and crossover and if VERY quite. There are a lot of things that make a better amp sound better, Damping factor for one.
Can a person hear the difference btwn a high end system and a low end one? I am willing to bet that EVERY person on this board can hear the difference. I actually brought two people with me to CES to run a test like this and set them btwn different systems. They ranged from the "normal" system of aproximatly 30,000 to the unreal system at 500-1,000,000 bucks. They with out me explaining anything could pick up on the differences btwn every system.
Now back to boats. On a boat you have a totally different environment then a home and you have to say as the customer what is important. IMHO you can not get a boat to EVER sound as good as a house due to the environment. Sound floor of equipment and what not do not really matter. Why would I put a Zapco amp in a boat? I never would it is waisted money. Andy and I (I hope I am not out of line speaking for him) recommend amps like Rockford due to the success we have had. They sound good with GOBBS of power to make them play loud. They are also a great bang for your buck amp. Lets face it most guys with boat systems want LOUD. You are not sitting on your boat thinking about imagine and sound stage. You are thinking look at the tits on that chick and boy would it be fun to bang her. :D:D
When it all comes down to it however the system is only as good as it's installation. All speakers should be through bolted with washers and nylock nuts. Location of speakers will make and break a system. Trial and error is a way to go but in a boat Experience in knowing what is good is the best thing to help. Pick your installer very carefully. Look for the quality of their install and attention to detail. Do the wires get wire tied down so that they will not move. Are they using stainless cusion clamps to hold everything together. If you are in a salt environment DO NOT use Car Audio Wire, it will only corrode in a short time and leave you with problems. Hope this all helps out.

Jon

AUDIOFN: very right I agree with you completely.

APACHE77: a watt is a watt on the level of current draw,true. statement.by means of output capability there are different ways of rating wattage witch makes it untrue. and the jbl 1300 watt amp for example is rated @ 1/4 ohm, 14.4 volts for 30 seconds. the truth of it is most of those cheap amps even though rated at that do not have true 1/4 ohm capability for any extended period of time and your boat or car will seldome deliver 14.4 volts to the amp. by the way the must common reason for welding speaker voice coils is from using an underpowered amp. the amp overdrives to satisfy the speaker and the ac voltage on the final stage of the amp spikes.

Audio you made a couple points on speaker placement and mounting. How much, if any, effect on sound quality is there if the back side of the speaker is mounted in an open enviroment. For example. Is there much difference if a speaker is mounted to a sheet of plywood with no box around the back of the speaker. Or if the back of the speaker is completely enclosed in a box, or behind a trim piece.

Reason I mention this is, the mounting location I currently have my speakers in is open at the bottom. They are mounted in the trim along the gunwale. Its open at the bottom. I can reach up from underneith to get to the back of the speaker.

Subs are mounted in boxes specificaly designed for their particular specs. Can and do full range speakers benifit from reflex, or ported enclosures.

I ask this because its probably good mounting advice for everyone to hear.

I was under the impression that heat buildup is a byproduct of resistance. This is taught in EE 101. Therefore, your amp has to draw more current to generate the heat, instaed of producing watts.

For example, class d are much more efficient (at less than 300 Hz), and run much cooler. Cooler = more efficient.

High tolorance? Human ear can distinguish? Hmmm...sounds like more "marketing" info. Most amps are tested using a sine wave, and the noise appears on a scope. Scientific fact. I guess if an amp manufacturer needs to differentiate themselves, they can say it "sounds better" because it's all subjective.

But not based on science.

Yes.

The audio mags are brutally honest when it comes to actual output. Those numbers are from the bench tests. A power source, a sine wave, and a resistive load tell the tale.

It's a very easy decision, when you remove the "it sounds better" voodoo. A watt is a watt.

However, the Fosgate has a subsonic filter, and a remote bass gain, so if you want to pay $200 for those features, go for it.

Like JUST ONCE pointed out, another thing to consider is which amp will last longer (quality components). IMHO, the JBL (Harmon Kardon) is top quality.

Something I found kina funny is the specs from the Sony. On the Sony Website, the top spec is "1,200 watts max power (into 2 ohms)"...yet a couple lines down it lists "600 Watts x 1 into 2 Ohms". Why does it say "1,200 watts" right on the amp, and even by Sony's own specs, a maximum output of 1,000 watts?

1,200 watts must be th "If Lightning Strikes" measurement (or running 16 volt batteries)...

How many people here would buy a 1,200 HP engine, and then be OK with it when they found out it put out 900 HP? For some reason, dealers keep pushing Sony...

BTW, when that amp was bench tested, it put out less than 1,000 watts.

I couldn't agree more. The motor in a driver is just that. Like a any motor, heat is it's enemy. Overdriving a speaker and heating the voice coil is the easiest way to fry it.

Once again I agree with Audiofn (did I just say that?;) ). Installation and dealer support is very important, unless you are a DIY'er. If you are the kind of guy who puts down $10K to a dealer for a system, and you don't care about the components, don't read my posts.

However, if you care about what goes in your boat, don't listen to just me, educate yourself.

BTW, the JBL amp was bench tested by CSR at 13.8 volts into a 2 ohm resistive load at 1,378 watts...that's what is known as "underrated"...most Fosgate birth sheets will tell you a similar story...

Man, I gotta beg you guys to take money?

a mid range speaker does not need the pressure load like a sub because it is not moving as much air.a mid range uses higher frequency therefore less speaker travel. they do make free air subs that can be mounted without a box but you will not get nearly the quality or punch out of the speaker. the only time i've ever seen a freeair work well is with the front of the speaker faceloaded. On a boat as you guys said its a totally different ballgame there is no enclosure for the tones to reflect and mature thats why for base and low notes sometimes a tuned band pass can sound good even though in most applicartions they arent as faverable as an isobaric box. being loaded on both sides and then externally ported mounting location is easier. $.02

Let's say you have an amp that is truely putting out 100 watts (bench tested).

Now lets say you have a speaker that is truely rated for 150 watts RMS.

Assume NO INFLATED CLAIMS, and a constant power supply.

There is no way an amp can "spike" over it's maximum output. It is not phisically possible. If the speaker can handle the load, and keep the VC cool, it doesn't know the difference between a distorted signal and an unclipped signal- they are the same to the speaker.

The only exception I've heard of is when using a passive crossover system, the clipped signal from the amp may produce a signal outside the crossover range, therefore frying the speaker.

For example, many installers use a piezo horn to set the gains on sub amps. Hook it up, and turn up the volume until noise is heard (the horn cannot produce low frequencies), then back off the gains. The clipped signal is putting out high frequencies.

Perhaps this is what you meant.

that is true but what i was trying tho say is that if you have a 4ohm sub thay is rated 600 watts rms 1000 peak and your running a true 1200watt amp @ 4ohms running it @ 1/2 gain will be safer for the speaker and sound better than running it with a 300 watt amp with the gain turned all the way up and the volume all the way up it will distort and yes believe it or not can blow the speaker with time.

Dock- Good luck with your system- spend some time with your installer-system design is still the key-a big concern for most consumers is the service/warranty after the install-this is especially important in boats. Go with the product that your retailer has the most confidence and a good mfg. relationship. WARNING: Boat stereo can be HIGH MAINTENANCE and always breaks on SATURDAY mornings.

"I was under the impression that heat buildup is a byproduct of resistance. This is taught in EE 101. Therefore, your amp has to draw more current to generate the heat, instaed of producing watts. "

answer=
In amplifiers the higher quality parts are over-built and there will be more parts, which is what makes them less eff. and more heat.

High tolorance? Human ear can distinguish? Hmmm...sounds like more "marketing" info. Most amps are tested using a sine wave, and the noise appears on a scope. Scientific fact. I guess if an amp manufacturer needs to differentiate themselves, they can say it "sounds better" because it's all subjective.

answer=
i was talking about phase through the amp, when you put an imput signal in one end the output signal goes through alot of stuff and the tol. in that stuff will make the output phase different for each side.


The audio mags are brutally honest when it comes to actual output. Those numbers are from the bench tests. A power source, a sine wave, and a resistive load tell the tale.


answer=
the audio mags are not brutally honest, it depends on how they decide to test the amp on a given day. and which manu. gave them money to test it.

There is no way an amp can "spike" over it's maximum output. It is not phisically possible. If the speaker can handle the load, and keep the VC cool, it doesn't know the difference between a distorted signal and an unclipped signal- they are the same to the speaker

answer=
the amp can "spike" over its rated, because it is not rated at the highest rail voltage. those signals are not the same to the speaker the clipped signal will generate more heat, take the energy of the clip and the energy of the sine and tell me the speaker will not get hotter

when i said spike i was not speaking of a wattage spike but a voltage raise that occurs when an amp is being overdriven. the speaker is not going to blow from to much wattage in this case that is not what i said. the speaker is not make to handle the e in voltage that the amp is producing in essence the amp puts out a signal wave if this wave is overrdriven the signal raies till it is clipped which is when the signal wave doesn't allow the coil to colapse this than produces dc voltsage "constant non wave signal" which will blow the speaker. if the coil cannot collaple between waves t overheats...

apache77: you are 100 percant correct you deffinetely know what your talking about. i may have been unclear with what i typed before, sometimes i get ahead or myself. I understand and agree with most everything you are saying. my biggest arguement with everyone is people that run off name 10000000000000 watt amp and think its louder than a well tuned power matched system. :D

back to the original question of this post if you are replacing everything. buy good speakers which usually means they cost more, and buy the most power you can afford, as long as it is set up right it will be alot louder and clearer and last longer than what you had. remember lack of power and bad setup will make you blow speakers before anything.
more power is the key

ee101 where did you go to school? if you are out of the business what do you do now? just wondering.
I have been out of car audio for 4years. wish i had never left, maybe i will get back into it.

havasu i have a friend that has the same boat that you have, he has a 350 with late model vortec heads and it runs about 65 with a 21 pitch, what kind of speed do you get. i will have to show him the pics of yours he will trip.

EE101? were you asking me