Mid-Size Cats: 450Rs vs 700SCIs
 

So, I've had this discussion with several friends - including Der Fuhrer himself, Peter Hledin - about the pros and cons of outboard vs inboard powered cats in the mid-size market (32'-40'). We've all seen the explosion of 450R boats in the offshore performance cat scene recently, and I'd just like to hear your guy's opinions on it. I'm only comparing 450Rs vs 700SCIs because they're comparable in price/warranty/maintenance/reliability. We all know the clear reason for inboard vs outboard when you step into the 1100/1350/1550 and other big power inboard cats. In the used market, 700SCI boats tend to be less money than the newer 450R boats. New, a pair of 700SCIs cost $50k more than a pair of 450Rs, so the 700SCI boats cost a little more. I'm interested to hear your guy's opinions on which setup you would buy if you were in the market for either a used or new mid-size cat, and the reasons for your opinion. For anyone interested in NOT talking about our dismal, democratic-overtaken political situation right now, this might be of interest to you as a way to kill some winter time while not boating.

Looks and sound.............700's.
Whipple upgrades.............700's
Warranty............................450R's

I think insurance might come into play here in the decision making process. The 450's likely disappear easier due to their simplicity and that they can be put on everything from a pontoon to a center console. I thought someone mentioned that with the 450s it was tough to get coverage on mid-sized cats in one of the threads.

Sold an AMAZING 32 Skater for an even more amazing OB 450 boat. The fact it's an MTI wasn't part of the decision. I really thought an MTI would be cost-prohibitive so the DCB/Victory were the original focus.

The torque on the 700 boat was reasonably stronger. But the combo with a 6 drive didn't accelerate nearly as fast as my 34 MTI. 0-100 the 450 boat would kill my 700/6 Skater
The fact I can run my 450 boat for EIGHT years with minimal worry on repair costs was also a HUGE factor. I think 2 years is available on the reborn 700 but even at the 3 year standard warranty the 450 is a no brainer.
I am a neat freak and I would spend hours cleaning my bilge after every run. Even a quick day at a fresh-water PR I would be on my hands and knees in the bilge. It sure is nice just scrubbing the cowlings and wiping it down.
The 700 boat has many other concerns beside the actual motor like headers, trannys, etc that just don't seem to be problems of note on the 450. And are not warranty items in most cases.
The 700 boat will LIKELY be better in some rough water. The 6 drive and weight being the most obvious factors. The skater was roughly 2200/2500lbs more than the MTI.
That said, the OB has just proven to be easier boating. If there is 10% of the water that the Skater would be better that's a high number. Match that vs the fact I put 92hrs on the Skater in 3 years and I have 72 hrs on the 450/34 MTI in 4 months.

Cash has MTI really cut the tunnel height down on their new boats?? When you look at them from the front the MTI looks a lot shallower than an equal size Skater. And if they have wouldn’t they have a lot more tendency to bottom out and pound in the rough??

The 34 was designed as it is. Not cutdown. The 390 is 7" deeper than a 34 so it's noticeable. The 390 is also 10-6, like my Skater was. The 34 is 10'.,

My Skater was big and deep, a one-off build more like 368 than a 32.

A 318/32 OB Skater and my 34' MTI are very similar in tunnel depth. We run the ****t out of the 34 and I don't think I would say it hits hard at all. And it's flies more level then my Skater did and THAT is storng statement.
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Kind of surprised the twin 450 accelerates harder, I mean we are talking 500HP difference, I assume the weight difference is some but wow that is impressive.

Would be cool if there was a comparison on the same hull.

I assume the Outboard boat is easier and less to insure than the I/O boat. Is that correct? Greg? Most definitely correct me if I am wrong. I'm genuinely curious.

Certainly the Outboard boat is easier to maintain in for a salt water boater.

Also, it seems like outboard parts are hard to come by. But maybe a bit less so for the big blocks; especially since they have been around longer..
If I was hell bent on always boating, even if I had the extended warranty of a 450 outboard...
...one might want to have a full blown new one in the crate in the garage at home. Or maybe go in with a couple buddies have a full spare or two that belong to ONLY your squad for spares.

All great feedback Greg, I was hoping you'd see this and mention your experience, but please explain how your widened 32B was a "big and deep one-off build more like a 368 than 32"? All dimensions (length of hull/deadrise/sponson-width/tunnel-depth) of your old 32B are exactly the same as all other 32Bs that came out of the 32B mold, except for the wider tunnel/beam. I know you're very happy with your 340X, and they are great boats (my friend bought one this past Fall and loves it), but I don't want guys reading this thread to think that your comparison of your 340X to your old inboard, widened 32B/#6 boat is similar to that of comparing it to an inboard 368/#6 boat in the rough. I don't doubt that your 340X flies as level as your old 32B does (which measures 31' from tip of sponsons to back of transom, as all flat-deck Skaters lose 1' or so in length when they're cut down for flat-decking). The CG was never good on 30/32 Skaters with big blocks and #6 drives (that's why Pete wouldn't even put #6 drives on the back of an inboard 30, the ones you see are customer conversions after the ASDs failed repeatedly). A big block/#6 drive 36/368 has a much better ride in the rough compared to a big block/#6 drive 30/32 - or your 340X/450R. Not only does a 36/368 have a deeper tunnel and larger sponsons, but it weighs over 3,000#s more than your 340X, with the weight of the motors IN the boat, not hanging off the transom. I completely agree with you on most all points you mention in your previous posts, except for the ride quality in the rough compared to a same-size inboard cat. It's no surprise that you say the 0-100 performance is better with the 450s, as I figured it would be (those V8 Mercs are awesome on light boats!). What I will find out this Summer running my 700/36 (which measures a true 35' hull length) against my buddy's 450/340 (which measures a true 34' hull length) is what the acceleration difference is like from 100 on up. My gut feeling is that my 700/35 is going to pull my buddy's 450/34 from 100 on up, especially with a normal load in each boat (4-6 people on board with half tanks of fuel), or in choppy water where he has to run it trimmed-in. I will be sure to post up some videos this Summer of he and I running together! Hand's down, I 100% agree with you that if you plan to put lots of hours per year (over 50) on your mid-size cat, the 450Rs are the way to go. We all know that the big blocks are only going to go 200-300 hours between having to be pulled out and have either the heads done, or complete rebuilds (I pulled the motors out of the 36 I picked up at 200 hours and rebuilt the heads). For me, knowing that the past 20 years of owning performance cats (outboard and inboard) have had me averaging about 50 hours per year, I felt the 700SCI/36 was the better package to buy. I've kept track of every dollar I'm spending, and by the time I'm finished with my 36, it will be all-new/rebuilt and I'll still have under $400k into it - which is less than my buddy paid for his 340X/450R rig. Since he doesn't plan to run out in the SF Bay or Pacific Ocean (smooth, fresh-water Delta boating only for him), and plans to put a lot of hours per year in his cat, he and I agree that the 340X/450R was the better choice for him. What's funny is that he was actually looking at the 700/36 I picked up before he purchased his 340X/450 rig. Since I like the big water of the SF Bay and Pacific Ocean, he and I agree that the 700/36 was the better choice for me. I feel I will have better performance at speeds from 100 on up (which is where I always run, unless water conditions don't allow it), with a much better ride in the rough. My girlfriend can't wait to get back into an inboard cat after I converted my 30 from inboard to outboard - she hated the "busy", lightweight ride of my 30 w/ the outboards vs when it was an inboard/ASD rig. I hope this thread sheds light on the differences and pros/cons of the different setups. Your 340X is beautiful Greg, and with the amount of hours you've already put on it, there's no doubt it's a WAY better boat for you than the 700/32 Skater was - or any other inboard cat for that matter! I look forward to seeing your new rig at LOTO this year. We won't be able to get out and compare our 36/340 rigs there, as I will have Freedom, not my 36. While it's pretty much guaranteed you'll be out every day in your 450 rig having a blast that week, I'll be crossing my fingers the big, nasty PSI motors in Freedom actually make it through the week..........

Great topic, can’t wait to read it all when I have a moment. Lol

Dale, the best way I can show you the Skater size is in pictures. And, like I said, the 390 width/Depth are a better comparison to your boat than a 340.

The 390 does only weigh about 400lbs more than a 340 so the acceleration is pretty close. Michael Howe built a 390 that weighs very close to a 340 as he took everything into account. Even getting a steering wheel that was significantly lighter than most.

3212 and 368 overhead ----------- 3212 and 368 sitting side by side -----------------------3212 and 3208 overhead
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The 340 isnt a great comparison to a 368 or your 36. But I would definitely say a 390/450 MTI or 360/450 Victory would be tough competition for either a 368/36 Skater w/700s.

And, I know the 400 OB boats had long runs to get to top speed, but the 450 acceleration is much better. Even above 100. Our recall is 131mph.

Here is a short video of us at LOTO where the Fountain TC34 cat snuck up and slingshotted past us as we literally taking our last run of the fall at LOTO. I decided to play a bit and we got it on video. The 340 would have easily kept climbing. I think 128-130 were possible with another 1/2-3/4 mile but we had to turn into PBC and the OL to our left was coming with us ready or not.

I can only speak as a fan. But from what I’ve heard about 450 prop shafts, you can’t beat a 700/6 boat.

plus the sound guys. Still has that grunt. I get the 8 year warranty , but it has it price does it not? To each is own, but for me it would be a 700 boat.

Dale- I was told that the standard 36 would lose a foot on flat deck, but not the 368 or 388. My source was Pete himself.

Skater30, Id think the 700’s/6’s are 300 or so more lbs each?
Times two.

On a smallish cat, I’d think that’s huge no?

I’m interested in what Peters view was????

Great thread BTW.

The 368/388 were designed as flatdeck builds so there is no loss of length. My 3212 was also a true 32 PLUS the bustle/tunnel ext.

I have heard of shafts snapping. But more with the heavy V boats than in the sport cats.

I loved my Skater. And I had only two small service issues. But the clock was ticking, and the sterndrive market was struggling with a hull size and speed already equal to the OB boats.

In a fantasy world where I could write the checks, Rockette would be mine for PR days and a 390x MTI would live on a lift at the lake for everyday use.

My take on the o/b vs i/o comparison. I have owned a dozen o/b cats and maybe 6 i/o cats, my last one had twin 1300's. The new 4 stroke outboards have changed the market in a big way. Lighter, easier to maintain, easier on fuel, higher resale value right now and acceleration is hard to beat. One good thing about the I/O cats is they tend to ride better in the rough water with the extra weight. A good driver can make an outboard cat run in the rough water very well, but they will fly a little more and tends to un-nerve some riders. I personally am not a fan of the 700sci. They tend to be real dogs when propped for top speed to keep up with a 450 powered cat. Also the transmission on the 700's is a weak link. I grew weary of the high maintenance on the I/O boats. My o/b cat is not as fast as my twin 1300 MTI I used to own but the maintenance is much lower and cheaper to fix when it does break.

Great thread ! Dale my head hurts after reading your "super paragraph" - LOL. J/K.

MDS

My dream boat is a 388 with 1100's, but I think my reality will be a 450 powered version of something slightly smaller. This a a great thread but I would really like to hear what Peter Hledin had to say about it.

My Skater had BAM trannys with M6 drives. Not the NXT trans or drives. It was as close to bulletproof as you can get an I/O I think.

I've only had the privilege one time to meet Peter and have lunch with him. He was very generous with his time and allowed us to tour his facility. He doesn't strike me as a big outboard fan. I will always remember my one day in Douglas, Michigan at the Skater factory.

We have a 368 with 450's and love it. It's very forgiving and has a solid ride. I don't really care about top speed and the 8 year warranty speaks for itself. The insurance on the outboards is downright cheap as compared to the inboard cats. Our boat was made for inboards but the transom was never drilled for outdrives. We always have the option to switch to inboards and the storage room is incredible.
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I kind of had the feeling like he had a soft spot for the older outboards as it was outboard boats that first got things going for Skater. I am sure from a manufacture side of things they like the simplicity of rigging outboards. Not to get to far of topic, and I would appreciate some other input on this, but if you compare MTI to Skater it really seems like they cater to different markets. Its seem like MTI is building 10 outboards to every 1 inboard currently and Skater the balance seems to be much closer or slightly favor the inboards.

Wife & I absolutely LOVE your 368!! Congrats

every one is saying 8 yr warranty and its typical mercury in that no one speaks of their issues with prop shafts props and transom brackets but does mercury actually stand behind the motors for this period of time? my bass boat buddies get one or two repairs on mercury and then mercury says warranty over and mind you these are what 18' boats with a 300 hp verado and they break. i cannot truly have faith in merc honoring the full term of the warranty especially when they make everything conditional to merc only prop, merc only oil, and so on and so on.

fuel burn, i think the inboards will actually be better than the outboards as the engine is not as stressed out. the ride of the inboard will be better to.

I have a friend in Shreveport w/twin 450Rs on a 26’ DCB that a propshaft carrier backed out on and no one has the correct tools to repair.

At least that’s what Merc is telling him after months of waiting.

That is a LOT of weight hanging on the back of that boat!!!

Yep

Not sure how light that boat is either.

It is new and still going through set up.
I think 119 before the gear case issue.

Cool part was (besides his 28’ pontoon w/two more 450’s on the lift at the dock in his backyard!) was the app on his phone that recorded speed, rpm and prop slip at the full speed range.
Very slick.


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I like his style!!

This I can absolutely say is incorrect.
At 4300rpm, or roughly 95-98mph, my 700 Mercs MAYBE got 1.4mpg. That is 1100 rpm short of redline
At 95-96mph, at 5000-5100rpm, my 450r motors are getting 1.9-2.1mpg. That is 1300-1400 short of redline
Video below

We had a F32 with whippled 700’s. Great boat, biggest issue we had is we like to put a lot of miles on in a day and some days we were searching for fuel 3 times a day. We hated that part. Now it only had 138 gallons so that was an issue. At cruise speed 90ish we would see right about 1.1-1.2mpg. Have a 37 with 450’s coming in the next couple months. Built with 200 gallons. Looking forward to a bit more effortless boating.

In salt water outboard seem like a no brainer .. plus the extra cockpit room.

A Toon w twin 450's Crazy lol

Caddo Lake?

Not sure.
I only know it was Shreveport.

Older/established area w/some gorgeous properties.

He bought his as a fixer upper and totally redid it.

Don’t want to hijack thread but garage by house had cool toys too.

’18 Vette for the wife and a new ‘20 Mid engine for him.


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No worries. I know that area pretty well. I ride my bike to Bossier/ Shreveport at least once a month. The Red River also is right there and flows my direction. I live on the Red. It empties into the Atchafalaya and Mississippi River. Anyway beautiful area up there. Hijack over...

I’m also starting to really dig those 450’s. Anyone want to go in on a group buy of powerball tickets lol

I cringe every time this subject comes up. Skater is rigging my new 368 as I post this. Mine is a 700 boat. For me there wasn't even a question. It wasn't about top speed, insurance, resale or warranty's. I grew up around I/O (and Jets way back) performance boats. I am simply not that buyer. I bought exactly what I wanted. I didn't want an O/B boat...period. I have absolutely nothing against them. But personally don't ever see myself owning one.

There is no room for the word "practicality" around performance boats, as there is nothing practical about them.

Personal choice.

Why do not more of these packages show up for I/O's?

Seems they would be nice at the 600-630HP level, designed by GM, DI, closed cooled so no water running thru the motor etc?

For up to 33 ish V's and light weight cats to me that they would be a good option. Maybe have to put SCX's behind them. Granted, there would need to be some bling added.

https://marineenginedepot.com/new-62...-airpac-620-hp

My guess would be that since there is this hi-perf. outboard market, There will be new technology, new HP per CI Stern drive stuff come available at some point. Competition breeds innovation.

I get it. I loved my 700s for what they were. My boating life is much better with outboards now. If I only boated at LOTO or something it would probably have stayed that way. I get far more use out of my OB MTI than my Skater for my needs.

Your 368 will be a fantastic piece of equipment.

Hmmm. Have you traded your fine doubles in for a Blaser yet? (kidding)

haha, no. But I do use the hell out of a Blaser K95, fits nicely in the same case with one of my doubles. And I have never really been a Blaser fan at all. Picked one up for a good deal years ago to try. Probably shot half my game with it over the last decade.