Jason Johnson

The team behind the Lake Cumberland Poker Run at State Dock in Jamestown, Ky., hosted another memorable poker run last week.

https://www.speedonthewater.com/swee...not-disappoint

SkiDoc

iTrader: (4)

The party is is big but the run is terrible. Lake Cumberland is my home lake and I have been doing the Poker Run since it was started in the early 2000’s by the Midwest Powerboat Association. I hate to say it but I’ll never pay to enter until it changes. The food was really marginal compared to the early days, they didn’t even have drinks. One of the big things is the dock is a redneck **** show. They let anyone park at the dock. They should reserve it for Poker Run entered people only. After we ate dinner we came back to find an old beat up cruiser and a 50 some foot cruiser parked next to us. They don’t care about my capped boat with a TAOD paint job. They are doing this to make more money on 50 bucks to see concerts for the weekend. No one seems to know or care what powerboaters want. In the early days Reggie Fountain, Randy Scism, Peter Hledin, Mike DAnibelle, Bob Teague etc.... were all there.
Bottom line is that the only reason to come is to see the beautiful lake and to have a throw down party. Skip paying for the “Poker Run”

redsled33

I have been saying the same thing I have been coming since 2005 and the party at Harmon is now the poker run. I bet you could ask a third of the people in Harmon what a poker run is and they couldn’t tell you. Not saying I don’t like the party but I want to see the boats talk to the owners and hang out on the docks but not going to pay 50.00 to come and hang out on the dock. Just my .02

Brad Christy

SkiDoc,

I would agree the PokerRun kinda sucks since they changed the format. I had a lengthy conversation with Bill Jasper, the figurehead of the event at the time of the transition in format, about the future of the event. I told him then that it would become a BigBoy's club event, excluding the spectators, and would eventually begin driving participants away. And that's exactly where we are today. Instead of addressing the actual reasons for the accidents that served as impetus for the changes, instead of policing spectators along the route, they opted to remove the "Run" from the "Poker".

We had some friends do the Run, but, like you, we went up the SouthFork on Friday (while the friends ran the lake) and to Harmon on Saturday.

As a side note, we, too, call Cumberland our home lake, even though we live in SW Ohio. I've been boating on Cumberland literally my entire life. I always tell the joke that, at 51 years old, I've been skiing for 52; we have a picture of my mom, six months pregnant, on a pair of skis, on Cumberland. Where are you on the lake? We are at the convergience of the North Fork, South Fork and the Main Lake, and typically boat on the South Fork, where it's much quieter.

Thanks. Brad.
(937)545-8991

Marginmn

iTrader: (1)

When I started attending poker runs in the early 2000's the slower classes always went first - and you didn't hear about death's occurring at Poker runs - at least I never did. In the mid-2000s a group of Performance boating leaders and Poker run organizers intuitively decided that Poker runs would be safer if the field was inverted - fasted boats first. Their reasoning being that they thought it dangerous for the faster boats to have to pick their way through the slower poker run field. There was bound to be an accident they thought.

It sounded good in theory, but damn near immediately after the Poker run fields were inverted all over the country the Rule of Unintended Consequences kicked in. With a clear field ahead of them, the big boys turned Poker runs into quasi-drag-races to the first card stop. On any given Summer Saturday you would come here on OSO and read a thread about "Who was first to the first card stop at the XYZ Poker run?" And racing to the first card stop at the big Poker runs got super competitive super fast and people started dying literally for bragging rights.

Once the field was inverted it took 2 accidents and 3 deaths on the Cumberland Poker run in only 5 or so years to end what was for many of us our favorite day of the year. After that second accident you could have talked to Bill Jasper until you were purple in the face about tweaking his Poker run, but he saw a big payday for all of his hard work in building up the State Dock, and he and his partners were not about to risk having blood-sucking lawyers take their payday from them. I can't blame them. I don't know that they would have sold the State Dock if not for the fear of a lawsuit catching up with them.

I must say, it is so admirable, and old-school, for the family's of the deceased in that Poker run to honor their deceased who so loved Performance boating by not chasing the money, for they surely could have gotten barrels full had they let the lawyers pursue litigation.

As you and Ski Doc said, it's no longer a Poker Run. It's just an excuse to have a big party in Harmon. I haven't' entered the actual Poker run since they neutered it. Oh well, nothing lasts forever - and we do have a good time in Harmon. But boy do I miss running in that Poker run. It was often the best day of the year for me.

Brad Christy

Marginmn,

If it were the "race" aspect, we'd see more deaths in the actual races, and we don't. And that's because the courses are heavily regulated and monitored. Besides, how long do you think it took for the fastest boats to overtake the slowest boats, even when having to keep their fists out of the funsticks a bit, picking their way through the slower boats? How many other major accidents have we seen at any of the other PRs around the country? I know about the one on Lanier (the "Saddle Up" couple, not even in their own boat). Any others? If it were systemic of the staggered flight shotgun start, it wouldn't be so isolated.

The root cause, at least at Cumberland, was never the participants, but rather the spectators. Instead of picking a spot to watch the big boys go by and staying put, they were constantly running back and forth and up and down the course, trying to find a better vantage point. As I understand it, both accidents were the direct result of participants having to do a throttle check because some knucklehead wandered out onto the course at just the wrong time. People don't realize how fast a boat running 160+ will close on their position. They think they can jump out and get back before that 40' cat gets to them, and they can't. 60MPH is 88ft/second, which is a LOT more than most people can visualize. Some of these boats are damned near tripling that rate.

I can't imagine any court would even consider awarding a settlement in a case involving an accident during a PokerRun. There is an understood risk when running a boat like we do. That said, we all know one can sue for just about anything, and litigation is expensive, even if you win, and we can all agree that PR promoters are keen on avoiding that.

Thanks. Brad.
(937)545-8991

PremierPOWER

Not sure what the family of the deceased would have sued for? The entrants know the risks and it's certainly not State Dock's fault. 2013 was a sad time, but no one can be blamed but the few participants in the extremely fast cats that day. There are multiple angles of extremely reckless operation, including by the 2 who tragically lost their life that day. There was far too many instances where they were BEYOND too close to shore/ spectators. Not sure why people cant "race" to the card stop, but also be intelligent adults and know their limits? I've done this poker run in our 43 Donzi that will run 120mph, but I sure as hell was not throttle down the entire time.


4:50 mark (watch how he blatantly leaves the main channel to head towards the spectators near shore)
5:09 mark

Marginmn

iTrader: (1)

Brad. There certainly were deaths at other poker runs. Do some research. Pammy, the first death on the Cumberland run circa 2008, hooked a sponson in that long sweeping left-hand turn at the start of the Poker run doing about 130. Kevin Sellers rolling his boat had nothing to do with avoiding a spectator. It had everything to do with he and another participant laying down a bet as to which of them would be first to Conley. I was standing 3 feet from them on the dock right after the drivers meeting when they laid down that bet.

As far as the slower boats going first back in the day, on Cumberland at least, with staggered starts and with at least 5 minutes between each class, by the time the big boys were finally let go to start their class Herald Kunkle in his 26 Checkmate was already near or at Conley Bottom, and there was no way the big cats were going to catch him. Under that format the big cats racing 150+ 'to the first card stop just wasn't a thing because 30+ boats had already beaten them to Conley.

Also, you talk about the closing speed of Cats. When the smaller boats went first, the closing speed of that 26 Checkmate leading the pack gave ample time for both the spectators on the course and the Checkmate to avoid each other. And the ensuing mob of 70 MPH boats behind the leader gave ample warning to anyone on the course to get the hell off of the course. Compare that to the danger of no one coming down the lake for half an hour then suddenly a flock of 150+ mph boats are closing in on any spectators on the course. Which of those scenarios has bigger odds of ending in catastrophe?

Poker Runs and participants cannot have it both ways. They cannot preach that Poker runs are not races, then demand that the "course" be cleared as if they were about to start a race. Starting the fastest boats first just gave both the appearance and the feel of a race - which is exactly what many of them turned into.

As for the ability of plaintiffs being able to collect after accidents in Poker runs, again do some research. Search "Smoke on the Water Poker Run" on this site and see what you come up with. I think it will be enlightening to you.

Marginmn

iTrader: (1)

You are speaking from your heart and applying common sense. In real life the lawyers would have used that video above to prove that the State Dock was putting on unsanctioned races. Do some research on Smoke on the Water Poker Run. A guy had an Outerlimits - ran it for a time with mild power then decided to put big power in it. On his first run with big power he missed a card stop, turned the boat too hard at speed, rolled it, killed some peeps. His Insurance sued EVERBODY. OuterLimits, the Poker Run, and probably whomever cooked their breakfast that morning - and won. No more Poker Run. That's reality. The family's of the deceased the LC Poker Runs could have taken State Dock to the cleaners. That's a fact.

Brad Christy

Marginmn,

I was there for the cat rolling, and it was absolutely a direct result of the 30'+ cruiser that strolled out into the course just as the flight was bearing down on him, causing the driver to severely swerve to miss. The bet had nothing to do with a boat being where nearly all others had collectively agreed was to be kept clear. You might have been there when they were talking about a bet. I was there when the cruiser caused the crash. You heard the drivers talking. I heard the other spectators screaming, to no avail, for the cruiser to get the Hell out of the way.

If you're suggesting that one fast boat, leading a mob of not so fast boats, signaling the impending approach of a couple dozen REALLY fast boats, would encourage spectators to not jockey for that perfect vantage point, you're don't really know people that well. If you think letting a bunch of slower boats go first is going to keep the fastest boats from staging their own ad hoc race, you really don't know performance boaters, either. The boys are gonna play. They don't care if all the Bajas and Checkmates in the world have already made it to Conley. As long as they are staged in flights, they only care about those in their flight. But, to answer your question, my bet is on the "signal" boats being the greater risk of catastrophe, both in triggering buzz among spectators AND in functioning as jam boats for much faster boats to play frogger with.

You absolutely CAN designate a course off limits to spectators without calling the event a race. It is done all the time. They just didn't. Had they, we'd still have a PokerRun at Cumberland, and several people would still be alive.

Yes. I know PRO, LLC was sued. It's nuts that promoters of an event can draw up legal contracts and then attorneys can render them void. Sadly, I have first had experience involving a half-pipe that was never built, due to an attourney's advice about waiver forms and their lack of legal fortitude.

But, you're right. The promoters can't have it both ways. You can't call a thing a PokerRun, then not have a PokerRun, and expect it to last. I'd say this one is sadly in late-stage participation failure. It won't be long before the good feeling's gone, and the participants all just go to Harmon and keep their money. Or just start going to the Thunder Run, instead, where it's still a shotgun start. And is still a PokerRun.

Thanks. Brad.
(937)545-8991