Apache vs. Cigarette
 

With strong followers on both sides, I am wondering what you guys think the resale will do for the respective boats say five years from now....with different building techniques allowing for lighter setups...do you think that the Apaches will eventually lose their appeal.....and thus their resale value as well? I think that there will always be a buyer out there, but it may become increasingly hard to get a good price from them due to the weight to H.P. ratio.......what do you think???

I guess I am mainly referring to the 41 and 47 Apaches....

Yeah....that is pretty much the way I feel as well.....I too have a certain fondness for them, but am a little skeptical about them holding up as well as the cigs.......the 41 is on my list as one of the boats I would like to own...but I guess I am a little gun shy about the hit I would take when it came time to try something else......limited appeal and low trade in allowance.............

Remember those 70' LS-6 Chevelles...worth a lot today even though todays Camaros and Vettes are now faster.
If you want a big bad boat...they are the badest!:p

my .o2 worth
 

Cigarette's are just too damn expensive - If I had to do it all over again I would of bought Tonto's other 41 Apache for $ 130,000 and I could of upgraded another $ 100,000 and still be ahead of the game. I have a 2003 Top Gun w/ 575's(brand new 0 hours) for sale and can't give it away - BH

I dont think it is just the cigs that arent moving right now.....I think all boat sales are off......as far as that goes......

good point back4more:)

plus what gets everybody drooling at a car show? , certainly not a new camaro

Wow, a reasonable discussion, Imagine that.

Didn't think they still existed, thanks.

Dean

I agree with both Spitfire and Too Old.
I feel that there is a buyer for everything... it just comes down to how much of a hurry you are in to sell. I also feel that the lighter lay-ups and step-bottoms are going to be more desirable as they already are because of all the headaches that generally go along with big power. As it is getting easier everyday to make a 38' ft. boat run in the 80's and 90's with stock Merc. power. Almost all of the brokers and dealers I have spoke with on this matter, told me that it is getting harder and harder to sell big heavy boats with big power for big dollars when you can buy big light boats with small/stock power for big dollars...that go just as fast and in some cases...FASTER. Afterall guys, isn't that what we are talking about here... :) Bottom line, it just comes down to what appeals to you as an individual... Look at TONTO, he is an APACHE man through and through as I am sure there are several die-hard Cig. guys as well... As far me... well, let's just say I'm in between....:)

APACHES
 

Both are awsome, there seems to be a lot fewer apaches out there than cig's. From what I have seen the 41's seem to have gone up in value from 4 to 5 years ago. I love both I went with 36 WARRIOR because I have always wanted an APACHE. I was going to buy a cafe or a top gun but the enclosed head's are bigger in the 36 's as well as they have more freeboard. Being 6'4 that was important to me. My next purchase will a 41 with big power and 6 pack cockpit for poker runs. A heavy 41 is nice for lake michigan.I like the old school stuff big power and big drives.

Tbone......you got that right......its getting to the point now that if you dont have a hundred mile an hour boat.....you are in the back of the pack on any given Poker Run.....but in the end with the heritage thing aside......if you have two boats in the same price range...and one is faster ...requires less maintenance....and is more reliable.... all things considered....it's going to make it tough to get the money out of the older Apache...

My observation is that a few years back, 3 to be exact, Cigarette was nearly on the skids much in the same way as Apache is now. In my husbands words in order to go fast with that much displacement it took big, big power. They then launched an aggressive marketing campaign with some new technology involved, steps or something like that, they took the marketplace by storm. Being in marketing Apache would have no problem doing the same thing. But thats a womans perspective in a mans so called hobby.

That is a good point.....I think it especially applies to the endeavors like Searace is embarking on.....manufacturing old technology......if the boat is still heavy and requires big power to push it......I think it is going to severly limit its appeal.....in today's "stepped marketplace"

If I may jump in here.... TOO OLD makes a strong arguement for the CIGARETTE name recognition.... I believe we are all still using "XEROX" machines so to speak.... so for APACHE, et al... to be able to market thier name as affectively as CIGARETTE has.... I'm not sure.... but on the other side.... If APACHE were to come up with the next "Dodge RAM" ..... I think it would certainly help elevate the older models resale as well... the older CIGARETTE's are surely enjoying a resurgence because of the newer boats popularity.... and I think thats great! If APACHE could bring something new and different to the water.... and maybe they already have... I think it will help the older boats resale... look at the mid 70's to late 80's Corvettes.... or Harley Davidson's.... they were not great.... no offense... but now that the new models are really great products..... the old models are in demand... Owners can state they own a Vette or a HD & be proud... even if it is an AMF Harley Davidson.... if you know what I mean....

Fred,
Undoubtedly, Cigarette has the best brand recognition in the industry. But it's like.......let me use an old analogy of my husband and to quote "The Illustrious Sean Stinson", There's strippers and then there's strippers but they all want to be "The Stripper".....it goes something like that anyway. Now Cigarette has lipstick but the Old Apaches had makeup. Once the battle for the Apache sandbox ends we can then establish marketshare again but right now you have to dodge too many arrows, no pun intended, from the various factions. Again, this is a womans point of view.

i dont know about boating outside of the great lakes, but on lake michigan, a boat with a deep vee and a little weight such as an apache seem to be very desirable to lots of boaters.

steps? who needs them when lake mi. is airing out the bottom for you. we probably average 2-3 footers everyday. and when it gets a little nasty out there how many boats can run and trim out to get that last 5 mph in 4-6 footers?

Again...Steps are a marketing strategy

I agree steps are a marketing strategy, On calm flat lakes they work. On rough lakes they are a waste. Do you folks consider 9600 lbs to be light in a 41 foot boat??? Saber 28 do you know where I'm going with this?

They sure are...It ruined a lot of great bottoms.:(
I agree with what Saber said...On lake Mich a stepped bottom is worthless.

Crashbrain did any of your offshore boats that you owned make it to the water?

Spitfire1, are you going to put the Apache 41 on your Christmas list ?? A classic will hold its value, it just takes time. Try going out and buying a 67 Vette.

We need to do some boating !!!!

I dont want to turn this thread into a steps vs. no steps discussion...but if we are going to discuss this, are you guys trying to say that when the seas get rough, there isnt a stepped hull out there that can hang with a non stepper??? I find that hard to believe.......whether we like it or not...it seems that this is the way hull technology seems to be going....and if you dont keep up with the latest and greatest...you are going to be left behind......

Hey Greg.......I wanted to get out today...but it doesnt look like the weather is going to hold out......this is the other hole that I have been throwing my money into....only this one is on land....:D

I'm not trying to change the topic, just trying to see what steps are thought of. All the new Cigs have steps. I would agree they are faster in the right water, but what happens when it gets a little nasty. I think a straight deep-V bottom would be what you wanted. Just thinking out loud. I guess I'm a little old school.

CASHBRAIN

I THINK YOU HAVE SOME GREAT IDEAS, BUT MY POINT IS NOT THAT YOU HAVE NOT PUT YOUR BOATS IN THE WATER OR THAT YOU HAVE, BUT MY POINT IS THAT UNTIL YOU HAVE BUILT RIGGED DRIVEN AND OWNED A PATICULAR BOAT SHUT UP. I HAVE BEEN IN BOATING FOR A LONG TIME AND BY FAR NO EXPERT. YOU HAVE ALL OF A SUDDEN BECOME AN EXPERT ON EVERYTHING PERTAINING TO BOATING, BUILDING BOATS, BOAT BUILDERS, ETC. ETC.

JUST REMEMBER OPINIONS ARE LIKE ASSH---- EVERYONE HAS ONE.

spitfire 1,
i cannot say that a non step would be faster in rough water , however i do know that a non step is just as fast in rough water without all the quirks associated with them.

kaama82 9600 lbs is on the lighter end, but beam should also be considered, certainly a 7 foot beam boat of the same weight is going to ride better that a 9'6" boat .

iceangel, yes they are marketing, and not all new products are better than the ones they replaced.

funny how on the great lakes you still do not see that many cats. out there, the deep vee still is the right combo for the water conditions here.

Then slow down on your opinions on everything. Comments are great but you are ready to fight with every one on this board to make your point. This is suppost to be fun and informative.

In order for Apache to regain market share they are obviously going to have to bring in new technology and ideas...I think that this is what Bobby S. and Eric are working on....whether or not that includes stepped bottom hulls I guess we will see........the Apache will always be a classic...no doubt...but will the old ones continue to hold their value.....thats debateable..

LOL
 

HMMMMMMMMM............PRIOR TO HITCHING UP WITH "THE ILLUSTRIOUS ONE" IN AUGUST 2002 DID YOU KNOW WHAT STEPS WERE?

According to Sean, the only reason a step isn't faster than a non step in the rough is because you can only push the boat so hard. At that point it becomes a matter of handling. The non step will out handle the step in his opinion.

Now as for the point I am trying to make: No one wants to replace the classic Apache, but just as Ford did with the Mustang, a more up to date version would prove to be just as successful. Am I wrong or would a few updates in the technology and a killer marketing strategy atleast put Apache back in contention with Cigarette?

Ok Mikey~ I do believe everyone on the board realizes that I have only had 3 months of this world. BUT, wouldn't you agree that in my short little 3 months I have had some what of a crash course? Seeing as how Mr. Stinson has only boats and water between his ears.

hey mike have i told you today that I LOVE YOU

THAT'S HARSH.....POOR SEAN DID HE GET ON THE PLANE YET?

Not yet Mikey. Do you miss him that much?

spitfire 1,

i think that any boat that sell sells for $150K plus being 15 years old has definitely held its value, wish i could say the same for some boats i have owned

You know....one of the reasons I guess I started this thread is that having read the Apache whats in a name monster....a lot of lip service has been given to the merits of riding ones coat tails in claiming who has the rights to the real Apache......but in the end....if you are not keeping up with the latest technology out there whether it be steps or lighter lay ups or design improvements...its a moot point...because if no one is interested in buying an outdated design....what difference does it make......whether or not Searace is still in business a year from now I guess will be a good indication......

Sabre28........I agree...to a point....but when you look at the price of boats across the board.....its hard to even get into a 33 much less a 38 or 41 for any less.......I guess my point is, that unless you have a real nice piece like Robert's Tonto or Medicine Man or the other well known Apaches....it may be more of a depreciating asset than would otherwise be the case.....

any boat or car that is in less than perfect condition is going to be hammered in the resale dept. in the car biz, good clean stuff brought close to retail, now prime stuff brings wholesale and the rest....well, good luck

i dont think if you compare year for year and horsepower , apaches do any worse than a cig. etc.

remember supply and demand, there are not that many apaches out there.

i know what your point is , that will technology kill the value of these boats, but look at the value of desirable old cars , three times what they cost new, at least.

"Yes there will always be guys like me who would love to own a classic Apache or Cigarette but I think there will be fewer and fewer of us."
Exactly....and with fewer and fewer of us around....improvements in design.....and the desire to go faster and faster....it is going to have a very negative effect overall on the the Apaches and older Cigs as a whole.....a good example is a TRS vs. a non TRS boat ....Again...unless you have a pristine piece like Tonto...Medicine Man..or Geronimo..just to name a few....it is going to be even more of a losing investment than a boat normally is......am I wrong??

Fred, It's Sean you know my point of view on this subject. I guess all in all most of the older genere drop to a certain spot in value and hold steady. And that market depending on age and condition seems to be 75k-175k for a complete running piece.

So if you buy one for 450k new keep it until you absolutely can't stand it anymore or find an ass for that seat at your price.
:D :cool: ;) :D :cool: ;)