View Poll Results: What is your annual insurance premium?
$0-$400
14
8.75%
$401-$750
41
25.63%
$751-$1000
25
15.63%
$1001-$1500
25
15.63%
$1501-$2000
22
13.75%
$2001-$3000
16
10.00%
$3001 or more
17
10.63%
Voters: 160. You may not vote on this poll
How much is your boat insurance?
12-09-2002, 12:45 PM
#21
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This is one of the reasons we're thinking about something other than an offshore for our next boat. Our last boat was a 28' Powerquest - 65 mph or so. All of the major insurance companies told me they wouldn't insure it, including Allstate (which has our home and trucks), State Farm ("we're not writing new policies in Michigan"), Progressive, etc. Boat US told me they don't insure performance boats.
Got the run around everywhere, until I finally when through Worldwide Marine Ins. and got covered through Old United Casualty for around $1500.00 a year for an agreed value policy. Thank God we sold the boat last year, because I heard that Old United cancelled all "high performance" policies when they came up for renewal.
Every time we start thinking about new boat, a little voice in the back of my head keeps talking about what a pain in the ass it is to find insurance. And what it will cost. Not to mention the possiblity of getting shafted by the insurer (cancellation or big $$ to renew).
And the real pisser is that "performance boats" are statistically very low on the accident totem pole. I did a little number crunching with the Coast Guard numbers a while back, I'll see if I can find the post. Bottom line is, some balding eunich at "MegaInsuranceCo" makes an arbitrary decision that any boat that runs faster than 60 mph is an unacceptable risk. The people making these decisions probably have never been on a boat in their lives... Just discouraging and frustrating...
*****************
Found my thread on accidents....
Got the run around everywhere, until I finally when through Worldwide Marine Ins. and got covered through Old United Casualty for around $1500.00 a year for an agreed value policy. Thank God we sold the boat last year, because I heard that Old United cancelled all "high performance" policies when they came up for renewal.
Every time we start thinking about new boat, a little voice in the back of my head keeps talking about what a pain in the ass it is to find insurance. And what it will cost. Not to mention the possiblity of getting shafted by the insurer (cancellation or big $$ to renew).
And the real pisser is that "performance boats" are statistically very low on the accident totem pole. I did a little number crunching with the Coast Guard numbers a while back, I'll see if I can find the post. Bottom line is, some balding eunich at "MegaInsuranceCo" makes an arbitrary decision that any boat that runs faster than 60 mph is an unacceptable risk. The people making these decisions probably have never been on a boat in their lives... Just discouraging and frustrating...
*****************
Found my thread on accidents....
A couple of recent posts here and elsewhere got me thinking about boating safety. I think it is fair to say that the "cigarette boat" crowd gets more than its fair share of attention from authorities (sorry Troutly!). So, I decided to do a bit of research...
The USCG maintains records that contain all sorts of interesting accident data. You can do some browsing yourself over at Office for Boating Safety website: http://www.uscgboating.org/
One of the interesting things I found on this is that recreational boating fatalities are down in 2002. If you really want to have some fun, go to the "Statistics" section and download the Boating Statistics file. I took a look at the year 2000 report, the latest one available.
Some interesting tidbits:
Percentage of accidents that resulted in fatalities, by boat type:
Canoe / Kayak.................................65%
Rowboat..........................................5 8%
Open motor boat...............................8.4%
Houseboat......................................... 5.4%
Cabin motor boat...............................3.9%
The CG recorded 701 fatalities in 2000. 540 fatalities, or roughly 77%, came on boats between 8' and 21'. There were 45 fatalities on ALL boats (not just performance boats) in the 25' - 40' range, or roughly 6.4%.
More fun... out of the 429 fatalities that occured among propellor-driven boats, 328 (76%) came on boats that were powered by outboards, 49 (11.4%) came on I/O's, and 48 (11.2%) came on inboards. 14 deaths were on boats with "unknown" power. Must be all those maniacs running 28 Skaters...
Now, I'm just a dumb redneck, but I'm thinking that if our local water police spent less time busting the balls of the guy with loud exhaust, and more time monitoring and enforcing the rules for folks in smaller, outboard powered boats, not to mention canoes, rowboats, and kayaks, they just might be able to lower the fatality rate even further.
But what do I know...
The USCG maintains records that contain all sorts of interesting accident data. You can do some browsing yourself over at Office for Boating Safety website: http://www.uscgboating.org/
One of the interesting things I found on this is that recreational boating fatalities are down in 2002. If you really want to have some fun, go to the "Statistics" section and download the Boating Statistics file. I took a look at the year 2000 report, the latest one available.
Some interesting tidbits:
Percentage of accidents that resulted in fatalities, by boat type:
Canoe / Kayak.................................65%
Rowboat..........................................5 8%
Open motor boat...............................8.4%
Houseboat......................................... 5.4%
Cabin motor boat...............................3.9%
The CG recorded 701 fatalities in 2000. 540 fatalities, or roughly 77%, came on boats between 8' and 21'. There were 45 fatalities on ALL boats (not just performance boats) in the 25' - 40' range, or roughly 6.4%.
More fun... out of the 429 fatalities that occured among propellor-driven boats, 328 (76%) came on boats that were powered by outboards, 49 (11.4%) came on I/O's, and 48 (11.2%) came on inboards. 14 deaths were on boats with "unknown" power. Must be all those maniacs running 28 Skaters...
Now, I'm just a dumb redneck, but I'm thinking that if our local water police spent less time busting the balls of the guy with loud exhaust, and more time monitoring and enforcing the rules for folks in smaller, outboard powered boats, not to mention canoes, rowboats, and kayaks, they just might be able to lower the fatality rate even further.
But what do I know...
Last edited by dockrocker; 12-09-2002 at 12:50 PM.
12-09-2002, 01:34 PM
#22
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Dockrocker,
That's some great info, thanks for putting that together.
I fear, however, that it's not the deaths or total loss type of claims that they're concerned with....Maybe it has to do with Big Block Joe blowing up his motors and drives every 6 months and after the 12th claim, Insurer's tend to notice.
But I'm with you 100%, I can't stand the arbitrary stereotype. You're right on as far as the % are concerned.
That's some great info, thanks for putting that together.
I fear, however, that it's not the deaths or total loss type of claims that they're concerned with....Maybe it has to do with Big Block Joe blowing up his motors and drives every 6 months and after the 12th claim, Insurer's tend to notice.
But I'm with you 100%, I can't stand the arbitrary stereotype. You're right on as far as the % are concerned.
12-09-2002, 01:56 PM
#23
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Baja Daze,
I agree, there's more than the fatality rate - my original post was not directly applicable to the issue at hand. I wonder, though, just what the claim rate really is on performance boats vs. your average Sea Ray. I've seen statistics that put "performance" boats as something like 3% of the overall boat market. I have a hard time believing that the overall claim rate is high enough to justify 3 or 4 times the premium.
Just thinking out loud here, but we have what, maybe 7000 members on OSO. Say we've got a 1000 regular posters - how many "blew my engine up and made an insurance claim" posts do you see? Not all that many - none that I can remember.
And every weekend, I see cabin cruisers and what not being towed in to the dock.
I'm not saying that this is necessarily a solid statement, I'm just have a suspicious nature. I'm guessing that there really is no empirical evidence to justifiy a higher rate for performance boats. But, the companies have a stereotype of "us" in mind, they know they can get away with it (think the local news is going to do a human interest story on the guy with a $100,000 loud boat who's getting screwed on insurance?), and so we get screwed.
Any insurance-savvy types out there? Can you comment?
I agree, there's more than the fatality rate - my original post was not directly applicable to the issue at hand. I wonder, though, just what the claim rate really is on performance boats vs. your average Sea Ray. I've seen statistics that put "performance" boats as something like 3% of the overall boat market. I have a hard time believing that the overall claim rate is high enough to justify 3 or 4 times the premium.
Just thinking out loud here, but we have what, maybe 7000 members on OSO. Say we've got a 1000 regular posters - how many "blew my engine up and made an insurance claim" posts do you see? Not all that many - none that I can remember.
And every weekend, I see cabin cruisers and what not being towed in to the dock.
I'm not saying that this is necessarily a solid statement, I'm just have a suspicious nature. I'm guessing that there really is no empirical evidence to justifiy a higher rate for performance boats. But, the companies have a stereotype of "us" in mind, they know they can get away with it (think the local news is going to do a human interest story on the guy with a $100,000 loud boat who's getting screwed on insurance?), and so we get screwed.
Any insurance-savvy types out there? Can you comment?
12-09-2002, 02:01 PM
#24
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When it come to boats and water, you have to have insurance. I had a relative and a close friend bring suit against my familly at one point. For minor injuries in a related accident. Needless to say I have nothing to do with either ever again. I cannot discuss #s related to the final settelement but lets say it was it made the original purchase cost of my boat look cheap.
two points,
1. Max your coverage
2. if you are ever involved in a accident, shut up, everyone is going to sue, no matter what they say.
Hard lesson to learn.
Sorry to make this statement, just hope that by reading this maybe I could save one of you the chit my family endured.
two points,
1. Max your coverage
2. if you are ever involved in a accident, shut up, everyone is going to sue, no matter what they say.
Hard lesson to learn.
Sorry to make this statement, just hope that by reading this maybe I could save one of you the chit my family endured.
12-09-2002, 02:02 PM
#25
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That's a great viewpoint dock. I, too, would love to see that data compiled: #claims vs type of boat. Arguably, the industry that exploits statistics more than any other would have to be insurance. (Notice, I said industry...Otherwise it would have to be politics
) Anyway, I'm sure there's a reason...I don't like it, but that's the nature of the biz.
I wonder if Reliability and maintainability are factors.
) Anyway, I'm sure there's a reason...I don't like it, but that's the nature of the biz. I wonder if Reliability and maintainability are factors.
12-09-2002, 02:34 PM
#26
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OSO group coverage
Maybe we could arrange group coverage like they do for health insurance. With 7000 members we should be able to negotiate a great deal for all of us. Anybody have any resources or ways to look into it?
Tom
Tom
Last edited by Tom; 12-09-2002 at 02:38 PM.
12-09-2002, 02:37 PM
#27
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Re: OSO group coverage
Originally posted by Tom
Maybe we coudl arrange group coverage like they do for health insurance. With 7000 members we should be able to negotiate a great deal for all of us. Anybody have any resources or ways to look into it?
Tom
Maybe we coudl arrange group coverage like they do for health insurance. With 7000 members we should be able to negotiate a great deal for all of us. Anybody have any resources or ways to look into it?
Tom
Sounds like a plan to me
12-09-2002, 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by dockrocker
....I have a hard time believing that the overall claim rate is high enough to justify 3 or 4 times the premium......
....... I'm guessing that there really is no empirical evidence to justifiy a higher rate for performance boats. But, the companies have a stereotype of "us" in mind, they know they can get away with it............
Any insurance-savvy types out there? Can you comment?
....I have a hard time believing that the overall claim rate is high enough to justify 3 or 4 times the premium......
....... I'm guessing that there really is no empirical evidence to justifiy a higher rate for performance boats. But, the companies have a stereotype of "us" in mind, they know they can get away with it............
Any insurance-savvy types out there? Can you comment?
It's not that the claim rate is higher, but the pool from which to pay the claims is alot smarter. While there is well over $100,000,000. in "boat" insurance premium out there, the true "high performance" premium is under $20,000,000. Because there are fewer boats paying into it, the rates have to be higher.
Secondly, the average claim for "high performance" boats is also higher than the average "boat"claim. A busted outdrive on a 50' Nor-Tech is alot more pricey than one on a 50' Sea Ray. You also have expensive graphics, exotic hull materials, etc.
I am not a "baulding eunich at MegaInsuranceCo" but have been in the boat insurance business over 20 years; 10 years exclusively with "high performance" boats. I have developed three different national programs in that time, right down to assembling the policy itself. I DO know my business.
I'm not defending the WHOLE marine insurance market......just those of us who take it seriously, and want to make sure that there will ALWAYS be coverage available for the "high performance" boater. Otherwise, this site would be called Bayliner Only........
Last edited by Risk Taker; 12-09-2002 at 03:21 PM.
12-09-2002, 03:10 PM
#29
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Risk Taker,
Thanks for the insight - and sorry 'bout that eunich comment - might have had one too many cups of coffee today
Let me ask this - why would the insurance pools be separated by boat type? I would think that if it floats, the insurance money would go into one account, not into separate ones. Can you clarify?
Also, I can only accept the exotic materials deal so far. Seems to me that a Bravo 1 is a Bravo 1 - it's going to cost the same whether it's on a 25' Crownline or a 38' Formula. And I'd imagine a Bravo 3 is even more money to replace/rebuild, just from the added widgets and gizmos inside (obviously, I'm a technical guru...).
As for hull materials, etc, is a Formula, Baja, or Powerquest really that different from a typical express cruiser? I can understand that, say, Rinker uses chopped strand under the surface coat of 'glass, and Formula uses hand-laid roving. But if both boats are put up on the rocks, isn't the repair comparable? (glassdave or sharkey, can you edumacate me?)
I'll agree that there are some pretty exotic machines running around out there, but for every carbon fiber / kevlar / unobtainium Nor-Tech, there's got to be 10 or 20 regular old fiberglass Bajas.
I really do want to understand how this works - I'm not trying to be a bad guy and bust your chops on this - just learning. I've been working some numbers for the coming year, trying to see if we can move our timetable for a new boat up a bit. Every time, I run into the black hole of insurance costs - just a bit frustrated.
Thanks for helping clear some of this up (and if I'm really feeling down, I'll look at 46tomcat's bill again )
DR
Thanks for the insight - and sorry 'bout that eunich comment - might have had one too many cups of coffee today
Let me ask this - why would the insurance pools be separated by boat type? I would think that if it floats, the insurance money would go into one account, not into separate ones. Can you clarify?
Also, I can only accept the exotic materials deal so far. Seems to me that a Bravo 1 is a Bravo 1 - it's going to cost the same whether it's on a 25' Crownline or a 38' Formula. And I'd imagine a Bravo 3 is even more money to replace/rebuild, just from the added widgets and gizmos inside (obviously, I'm a technical guru...).
As for hull materials, etc, is a Formula, Baja, or Powerquest really that different from a typical express cruiser? I can understand that, say, Rinker uses chopped strand under the surface coat of 'glass, and Formula uses hand-laid roving. But if both boats are put up on the rocks, isn't the repair comparable? (glassdave or sharkey, can you edumacate me?)
I'll agree that there are some pretty exotic machines running around out there, but for every carbon fiber / kevlar / unobtainium Nor-Tech, there's got to be 10 or 20 regular old fiberglass Bajas.
I really do want to understand how this works - I'm not trying to be a bad guy and bust your chops on this - just learning. I've been working some numbers for the coming year, trying to see if we can move our timetable for a new boat up a bit. Every time, I run into the black hole of insurance costs - just a bit frustrated.
Thanks for helping clear some of this up (and if I'm really feeling down, I'll look at 46tomcat's bill again
)DR
12-09-2002, 03:29 PM
#30
I`ve owned performance boats for 20+ yrs and what I`ve learned about insuring these things is that you MUST do your homework and shop,shop,shop around. I have a Top Gun and pay 1200/yr for inland lakes,with winter layup. Ive been quoted as high as 3300 for similar coverage. My boat is with Sy Goldberg at Total Dollar.
great thread by the way!
12,000/yr.......yikes
Kurt.
great thread by the way!
12,000/yr.......yikes
Kurt.
