Proposed Winnipesaukee Speed Limit
 

There is a legislative attempt to have a 25 mph speed limit on the lake from a 1/2 hour before dusk to a 1/2 hour after sunrise. Representative Paul Hatch from Wolfeboro made the request to draft the bill: LSR 430.
Seems to me to be a knee jerk reaction to the Hartman fatality, even though its been shown that one boat was going 28 mph and the other at headway speed.
Anyway, contact your representative and let your voice be heard.
First its a night time speed limit. Guess what would be next?:mad: What happend to "Live Free or Die":confused:

Here are a couple of links:
Link to the legislation status
How to contact your representative
Article in Concord Monitor

They need to get something so push for manditory liscensing and education. They seem to like that as it's a way to promote safe boating and pick up a couple of bucks for the state.

However a night time speed limit seems OK. Its just makes sense. I think you would have a hard time explaining why you need to go over 25mph in the dark.

At least its not dusk Friday till dawn on Monday.

I agree, unless you have nightvision:D

Bajadude NH has not been the live free or die state for years now :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :( :( I no longer even go to that lake because of all the hastles associated with running up there. They just do not like us on the lake, so the harbor Nazi's take every oportunity to bust our chops. I got pulled over 3 times one day by these jerks. Never once was I doing anything even remotely wrong except to own a speed boat. I have not been up since then. I will take my money to another state. So far that has been Maine but even up there things are changing :( Who know that MA could be the last hold out

Jon

Live free or die?

My guess is there are a lot of dead people paying rent in NH:D

Audiofn,
I got a noise ticket in '93 up there. Yeah , I didn't have mufflers but the list of rules on the "Green Chart" failed to mention the fact of the need for mufflers:mad: . So I stayed away for a few years. Cost their economy a lot more than my ticket (like they really care).
Last summer I had no problems , as a matter of fact I blew past a
marine patrol ( keeping my 150' distance) and stopped near Gilford and had the chart and binoculars out when Deputy Dog caught up with me:rolleyes:
Actually we were looking for Ames Farm for breakfast the next morning.
Much to my amazement :eek: he simply asked if we were ok:o
He then pointed out that Ames was down past the next point:cool:
And I run a Formula like you , too. Couldn't have been the boat!

MoPower this is a state that if you are BIKE WEEKEND and you ask a girl to FLASH her rack you get hasled!!!! God forbid you are the girl that actually flashes!!!! Honest man I am the first to say when I was being a idiot and deserved to get pulled over. There was a time up there when Biggus, a friend and I were going all over the lake and wer got close a couple times. Ya I probably should have been pulled over then had been informed, but at the next stop Biggus did that for them :D:D Good to have friends that know the rules ;) ;) When I go boating I like to have fun and unfortunatly doing wrong or not the Police and Harbor patrol take that away if you know what I mean. :D Sorry Troutly:p

Already have it.

Jon,
I've been boating up here all my life (I'm 50 so :D ). Anyway, I can honestly say I've never had any real hassles with the MP. Some of the "junior" ones are a bit rude (and stupid), but on the whole, I've found them to be pretty much OK. Only got one warning once for no wake. Maybe I've just been lucky:D
MHO

Winni Speed Limit
 

I lived in Wolfeboro for over 5 years. I was a Tech at the DONZI dealership on Wolfebor Bay (Goodhue Hawkins). Had the time of my life---not a bad job, test driving every brand new DONZI after setting each one of 'em up!!!:D

THis was 10 or so years ago, and rumors of a speed limit were circulating then. It seemed only a matter of time, unfortunately.:mad:

I can say from extensive experience that the Marine Patrol (of "Puddle Pigs, as they were not-so-affectionately known) ruled that lake with an iron fist.:mad:

I haven't been boating up there lately, but I suspect it has only gotten worse.

I routinely got harassed on the lake.

I took a rental boat out one night (from the fleet at the marina), and got stopped because the bow light lens was in backwards (hell, I might have been the one to install it that way, but..). I could have fixed the damn thing with my leatherman right in front of the guy in about 45 seconds, but he apparently hadn't made his quota for the night. Cost me $80+ bucks (a fortune at the time, to me anyway).:mad:

'Lotsa mad smilies on this one.:mad: :mad: :mad:

Speak up, NH residents---pester your legislator(s)---I guarantee the tree huggers will---politicians listen to who they think will vote.;)

Besides, dawn is the best time of day for the Hydrostream---calm & alone.:D

Bajadood. Could be because I have a boat registered out of state. Although I am trying to think and I think I had it registered in NH at the time........

Yo Jon. could it be that......... YO UGLY!!!?:D

Jon,

Part of the deal I think is that if you boat regularly up here, you know where the MPs favorite spots to bag people are and just avoid them. They tend hang out in the same spots and look for the same things.

DJ, Troutly & Ron,

Although speed limits at night may seem reasonable at first, consider this, there is not excessive traffic at night on the lake, and if there is any congestion its usually just before or just after a fireworks show. Second, we already have plenty of laws already on the books to deal with some of these issues:

There is already a rule on the books about speeding. Excessive Speed is defined as: "the operation of the vessel at such a speed as to endanger BY COLLISION the life, limb or property of another".

Then there is the definition of RECKLESS OPERATION: "Reckless operation is the FAILURE to ecercise the degree of care necessary to prevent the endagering of another person or thier property."

We have enough rules & regulations. We need to enforce the rules we have, not write new unenforcable (given the staffing of the marine patrol) laws.

Another point, and this goes out to everyone. In light of the tragedy last summer, you need to remember, both boats were going in the same direction, one at 28mph the other at headway speed, say 6mph, for a total collision force of 22mph. The collision occured at 3mph less than the speed limit proposed...

Speed limits do absolutely nothing, and would not have prevented this senseless tragedy... however common sense & responsibility might have, and you cannot legislate that!!

Woodsy

Woodsy,

well put

Not sure but you would know :D:D:D

Putting a speed limit on the lake is simply imposing another rule that won't be enforced. Most will not abide by it just as most do not abide by the current rules. The boating license is also crap because it doesnt teach inexperienced boaters how to drive. I do agree with Baja. If you boat on the lake all summer, you know where to po- po's like to hang and you can also get used to what they look like. Though you shouldnt worry if you arent doing anything wrong.... Even that most of the time they pull you over you havent done one thing wrong. One of my favorite memories this past summer though was watching summa humma get pulled over for no reason.

Troutly...

No offense, but I don't need a physics lesson, I deal with mass, mometum, pitch, yaw, roll, & CG etc all day on stuff that doesn't exist... I understand the point you are making, and for the most part I agree.

As far as accidents go, this one was pretty straightforward as both boats were on the same heading in the same direction. Very similar to a rear end collison that occurs everyday at lots of intersections all over the country. The Baja was coming up on plane and ran up the stern of the other boat. The speed numbers came from the accident reconstructionist over at the NH Marine Patrol headquarters in Gilford and are available to the public. The reconstruction of the accident indicated that the Baja was traveling forward in a straight line at approximately 28 mph when it ran over the stern of the other boat on the same heading that was traveling at headway speed or approximately 6mph. Now I know you need to get into the whole mass & momentum stuff, but I am quite sure the MP officer already has done that homework.

You are for more new laws, because it makes it easier for you, the police officer, not me the boater/taxpayer/citizen. If the MP do thier job properly, and they for the most part do the best they can with the staffing they have, there is no need for speed limits of any sort. The guy that was driving this Baja was absolutely HAMMERED... no pun intended ;) last I checked there are plenty of DWI/BWI laws on the books. Not to mention the laws I mentioned earlier. If the Town of Meredith had seen fit to post a police officer at the town docks, like Laconia, and Wolfeboro do, maybe this guy might not have been able to kill someone. Speed wasn't the killer in this accident, it was impaired judgement due to alcohol consumption.

Applying your logic, if the lawmakers in Congress were to pass a speed limit of no more than 45mph in any US Territorial waters (thats 200 mile offshore limit) and all lakes rivers & streams, you would not be opposed to this? It would certainly kill the go-fast boat industry, and most of the fun people on this board enjoy. No need for a 38 Top Gun with twin 1100HP motors if your only allowed to do 45mph. Its a far out scenario, but the same logic applies. But it would make really easy for the Coast Guard to enforce, because then nobody could outrun them... legally... ;)

How would you enforce the new law? You cannot shoot a handheld radar gun at a speeding boat and get an accurate reading unless you are close to the same bearing. The closer to the edges of the radar cone, the less accuracy you have. Boats don't run in marked lanes like cars do. Commercially available marine radar does not have time/tracking/speed capability needed to enforce a speed limit for boats. So now we have to upgrade all of our MP watercraft, to a military tracking type of radar, re-train all of the MP officers on its use, all at whose expense? The same people who didn't want the speed limit to begin with!

Its not that I am not for new laws, I am for new laws that are demonstrably necessary. I would argue that you cannot demonstrate a need for a speed limit on the water, nightime or otherwise. Boating speeds can easily be controlled by no-wake zones, and the enforcement of laws that already exist. We have had no deaths ever on Winnipesaukee attributable to speed alone. Most accidents occur from too much alcohol, lack of experience operating the boat and/or lack of knowledge regarding the rules & regulations. Most speed type boating infractions can be more than covered by exisiting NH laws, and have been for years.

You cannot legislate common sense or responsibility. I would be in favor of a boating license, not certificate, similar to a motorcycle or automobile license, with similar penalies for not following the rules & regs. That would go a long way to solving some of the issue we all have on the waterways. It would also kill the boat/PWC rental business, but personally, I think thats an acceptable loss...

Woodsy

cowisl~ Good point, I have been "summering" on that lake since I was 10 mo. old, and boy have things changed, not all for the better either... I have to agree with you on the Summa-Humma comment as well. Now there is an A$$hole who needs to be taught a lesson... a hard lesson that NO ONE is above the law, (as he likes to think that he is...)

Troutly~ I hope after people have read your posts they realize that there is more to law enforcement then real life episodes of COPS. No offense to you "jollyroger", I'm behind Dan getting what is coming to him, and I've known him for 15 years... We have a couple of State troopers in the family and I'm amazed more often then not what entails a "days work"... School teachers, fire fighters and police all deserve more credit than is typically given. Yeah there are a few out there that give the good ones a bad name,and anyone that has run into the Lake Patrol on Winni can attest to that... There are three sides to every story, "yours, mine & the truth" or so they are finding out in this case.

I'm not in favor with the night time speed limit 100%, however if that is what it takes than so be it. My family has been on that lake (owned property) for over 50 years, and through the years I've seen an 18 foot boat that did 55 be considered "fast" to taking that same boat and not being able to go out in it on a weekend for fear you'll be swamped and sink! Hell, my 271 FasTech (I felt, anyway...) was about my limit on the down side for what I felt comfortable in on the weekends. Next time around I'm definitely going for a "real" 28-30 footer, at a minimum.

It's interesting to hear different oppinions from people around the country, it kind of puts things in perspective.

Troutly,

I understand that keeping the radar on your seat near your crotch enhances it's accuracy :p :p

Troutly...

You are pretty good with most of your arguments. I am sure MP also had the help of the State Police Reconstruction Team... The damage to both boats was minimal, neither sank, or was damaged beyond repair. I am sure whatever calculations they used to come up with these figures is in the ballpark.

If I had to approach the problem, I agree the answer is in all of the angles. This was not a high speed accident, nor was the man killed from a high speed impact, he was killed because a larger, heavy boat crushed him to death as it rode over the stern of a smaller, slower moving boat. I am not goin to debate what formulas the MP/SP actually used, because, I am not privy to them, and did not double check their math. I am sure the defense is going to try to shoot all kinds of holes in the case. Of course, he hired Pam Smart's old lawyer and look where she is...

As for the radar, sorry bud, you may use it all day long, but I DEVELOP it... it isn't acurate unless you are within a certain envelope within the cone. As the MP cannot specifically state what exact coordinate he is on the water, or what exact bearing the speeder was on relative to the officers bearing (Thats the way it works on the highway, police officer in fixed position, motorist traveling on fixed bearing) you could argue that you were out of the envelope. Of course, if they upgraded to a military radar, not a cheapo handheld that would not be an issue.
I stand by my original statement that a speed limit is not realistically enforceable on the water without expensive upgrades to all of the MP watercraft and training for the officers.

I also did not say you agreed with a speed limit during the day, I was applying your argument to a bigger picture. If you have to run at 25MPH at night, why do you need to run faster than 50 during the day? The answer is, you don't. You do it because you want to, not because you need to. The same goes for any type of craft, be it car, motorcycle, snowmobile or boat.

Your response about reaction times is not exactly correct. Actually reaction time doesn't change much, its visual aquisition of a potential danger that changes. Another point I might make, is why don't speed limits on roads universally drop after dark?

Ponder this.. I am driving 65mph the posted speed limit at night on a straight road, with little traffic. I am violating no laws, and Officer Bob doesn't give me a second glance. If some moron drives 65mph at night, in a dense fog, on a road posted 65mph he isn't breaking any speed limit laws, however, he is driving in a reckless manner.... I am sure Officer Bob would be most interested in having a conversation regarding a citation for reckless operation of a motor vehicle. Technically, he wasn't speeding, he was operating in a manner that reckless given the conditions at that time. Most states have laws that simply state speed must be relative and prudent at all times. Now, apply that to boats, I am driving along, at night minding my own business probably turning 40mph or so, not breaking any laws Officer Bob lets me go, well if he is suspicious, as most NH MP officers are, he will stop you for a "Safety Equipment Check", however, no ticket and I am on my way. While Officer Bob is talking to me, some moron in a Baja.. Sorry Karl.. I had to do it!! ;) blows by us less than 50' away... Officer Bob then pulls him over for violating the 150' rule, (no speed limit so no speed violation) and reckless operation of motor vehicle... passing too close to Officer Bob & myself at high rate of speed thus endangering the life, limb and property of him Officer Bob & I. The result: heavy fine, possible license suspension, possible court appearance and overall bad night. Could he beat it in court, maybe, but it will still cost him time & lawyers fees.

Headlights are not used on boats because they ruin the night vision of any boat approaching yours, and can actually blind the operator of oncoming boat so that they cannot see your running lights and thus tell what direction you are heading relative to thier position. Headlights make it worse for you by causing glare on the water. If you are caught in NH with your docking lights on in the middle of the lake its a serious offense. I think its a $100 fine.

If you are a careful, responsible prudent boater, then you do not need speed limits. We do not need more laws. We need more MP's, and better enforcement of the laws that already exist.

I won't go into the whole "boat speedo accuracy argument"....

I hope I am not coming across as a cop basher or this discussion as cop bashing. I have several good friends who are SP and I have the utmost respect for anyone who has the passion to that job. I would rather play with lasers...

Woodsy

Hey Trout and Jolly......

Slow down.......you'll get carpal tunnel.........:D:p

Bored today at work....

Woodsy

While I agree a night time speed limit & no wake zones in "tight" areas make sense...The possibility of new or "over-regulating" laws & daytime speed limits bothers me...I agree that the NH DEPT of SAFETY has a tendency to "pick-on" the wrong people sometimes, but I have found that they are USUALLY pretty fair & they USUALLY have a legitimate reason for the stop...I see more infractions than I can count WHENEVER I go out & have taken to NOT going out on weekends because of it & just plain overcrowding & inconsiderate boaters...To be perfectly honest...I think the boat cops do a pretty good job of "keeping their cool" on busy weekends...It's funny how not too long ago people would actually WAVE to one an other...Now they flick you the bird if you DARE slow down for the markers at Governors Island for safe(150') passage...NH is on the right track with the new "license"/test that they have implemented...It's similiar to the beginners power squadron course...A little knowledge is better than none...Back in 1985 I had just taken delivery of a brand new 22' VELOCITY & because the lake had TOO MUCH water in it the whole lake (for 3 weeks/95 degrees) was a NO WAKE ZONE!!!I DON'T WANT A SPEED LIMIT!!!I have been on the lake (Alton, now Meredith) for 40 years & have a vested interest in the outcome of this............NOW...Tell me about SUMMA HUMMA, I have seen him around...WHAT'S HIS STORY???....BTW BAJADUDE...Jeff at the BEACON is doing a ski/snomobile weekend the 10th of January...check it out at winnilakers.com>>>>>>>

I agree that something has to be done, and I think that a lot of people up there, that have a vested interest in the lake (read: homeowners) have some good ideas. The accident was just that... an accident, exacerbated by alcohol and poor judgement! Boats are getting bigger and faster up there and the lake is staying the same size that it always was... You can't fit 10lbs. of $hit in a 5lb bag, no matter how hard you try. And I'll be the first to say (with most everyone else here...) that IT IS THE DRIVER, NOT THE BOAT that is responsible for what does and does not happen.

That brings me to Summa Humma... PERFECT example. Charter member of the lucky sperm club! Daddy's company, sold; daddys money yada-yada, big fat A$$, plain and simple! 47' Fountain with trips, on a 27 mile long lake. Not a problem, except maybe at your favorite watering hole trying to find a space on a Saturday. However when you drive and dock like you are the ONLY boat on a 27 mile long lake, yeah... that's a problem. But I'm not gonna spend a lot of time on that subject. Go to the Winni web page, he seems to have a legion of fans there, always looking to see what he's doing and so on... these folks need to get a life! He and people like him are the reason you will see legislation like the speed limit being proposed, totally irresponsible... on a good day.

DoTheMath, don't forget he's also got that 53' Carver Voyager "My Otha Summa Humma" (it's for sale, if anyone is interested).
I'm all for getting whatever you want, but his choice in boats does seem a WEE bit excessive for Winni. Problem is, where do you draw the line at excessive? Is the 38 TG I'm drooling over excessive. Probably, but if I can swing it, I'll do it :D :D
BTW here's a picture of what DTM is talking about.

Again BajaDude.... It's not the boat, it's the owner.

I'm right there with ya, I'd like to tie a 37' OL to my dock in the near future, but a 28 Pantera is more realistic, and will be enjoyed just as much!

DTM,

Couldn't agree with you more, I've made that point many times. Just wanted to post the pix:)

It's so true! There are so many incompetent drivers operating family bowriders on the lake. They have no concept of boating laws or regulations.....they know how to turn the key and hit the throttles. On the other hand, one must be highly skilled and knowledgeable to operate a large powerboat on the lake. Unfortunately, we're the scapegoats.
People remember the big boats so you can command a lot of respect or lack of just by your actions and behavior on the lake. Being a courteous and responsible driver are paramount on the overcrowded weekends. When we drive through the Weirs Channel we smile and wave to everyone out of respect and friendliness. Most people wave back, however nevertheless, we still encounter some people that turn their backs and choose to ignore us. Oh well.

Go for the OL!!! Our boat is lonely and needs a playmate! :D

The other problem with these runabouts now is that they are Fast. Most of the new ones go 55 to 60 mph. I cant stand it when they are full out with their bumpers flying and not paying attention to a thing. I have some favorite incidents, but one of my favorites was when i was working at Trexlers marina. A guy in a brand new Charparal(spelling) with the big motor and the whole family just put the boat in neutral and "coasted to the dock." Well coasting or not, he ended up going up and over the dock with his new boat and did some costly damage.

Now there is something I would like to see......Troutly in court :D:D

Well YOUR PUTZ....I mean your honor :D:D

Jon

Speed limits are only good for those that fallow the rules anyhow. If everyone fallowed the rules as they are on the books then there would be no problem. SO if you make another rule it only effects the ones that fallow the rules. The ones that do not......well they are the ones that ruin it for all of us. The guys that are running around drunk at night well they just plain SUCK!!!!!!!!

Jon

O-Limit37~ Ahh yes... it would be nice to put another OL on the big lake, believe me. And I've been meaning to catch you (on the board...) and ask you about your boat. Based on past posts I have gathered that you are running blower motors which leads me to two questions. 1) You must be running 92 or better in it, if so do you use additives in the 89 or do you go to Wolfeboro or Y-Landing for the super? and 2) How do you keep it quiet enough to not be bothered by the lake patrol on a regular basis!? I just sold a 271 FasTech with a 540 Lingenfelter and it was LOUD, even with $4K worth of mufflers. (No Silent Thunder Platform, wouldn't fit with the headers... got kicked off the lake for 96db - OUCH!) What I am trying to decide is, next time do I go for say, 575's or something to that effect or do I just go with motors that burn good ole fashioned 89? I guess to clarify, our house is just outside of Center Harbor, so if Y-Landing decides to stop carrying Super then I have to drive all the way to the other end of the lake for fuel, not really convienient...


cowisl~ Betty must have had a coronary when that yo-yo drove up on her docks! It is amazing what you see up there on the weekends. I worked at a couple different marinas up ther during my college summers (Browns for two...) and there is nothing funnier to this day than watching the public launch ramp in the morning and in the afternoon. Pure insanity! I don't even dock at the Weirs anymore on the weekends, just not worth the risk of damage...

I posted a letter to Paul Hatch over on the Winni forum. With the exception of the radar disagreement between Officer Troutly & I, I would really like to hear your opinions, especially you Winni guys!

On the upsdie I don't attract as much atention as most of you... I only drive a little Donzi 22 Classic...

Woodsy

PS; Troutly, glad I did not come across as cop bashing. Sometimes its hard when reading a response to judge somebodys tone.

Jolly~

As a third generation Winni guy, I have mixed emotions (that would be my feelings, not the Skater...) on this. I feel very strongly that it is the driver ALWAYS, and not the boat. As mentioned earlier in this post, there are people driving 20' bowriders & lake lice that have no clue what the hell they are doing. And there are people driving go-fasts that have no clue, or may be just don't give a $hit about what they are doing. Of course there are PLENTY of responsible owner / drivers in both as well. Will the speed limit cure the problem, nope! Will it help, maybe... but doubtful. BWI is BWI, and as we have now seen, at 25 or 85, tragedy can and has occured. What can / do we do to make it better? Maybe form a committe, pool some ideas and get to some people that can make things happen (read: politicians). We can make a difference, and I for one am ready to do something. Maybe an "Inland Lakes National Safe Boaters Committee". Putting fourth suggestions and ideas to make ALL inland waterway boating safer and more enjoyable for everyone. Whether you drive a 22 Donzi or a 51 OL, and you're on Winni or LOTO or... wherever.

DTM,
We're running 575SC's. Last summer we changed our blower pulleys so now we're pushing ~650hp through the engines. The 575's demand high-test fuel. Goodhues is close by so getting gas is no problem. In fact, I think we're keeping them in business with our huge purchases. :)
Our boat is loud and we were concerned last summer b/c other boats w/575's were pulled over for noise violations. We've never measured our sound, yet our mechanic tells us not to worry stating that we're at the legal limit. We've had the boat on the lake for about 5 seasons and we've only been spot-checked a handful of times. The MP's have questioned the noise, but we've never received a violation or have been summoned for a dB test. We're extremely careful and vigilant while on the lake. We ease back on the throttles when in view of an MP and generally proceed at headway speed in congested areas not to draw any unwanted attention. Basically, we give them no excuse to stop us. It would be unfortunate if we had to install silencers. I know the noise angers a lot of people, but for us, it's pure ecstasy! There are a few Fountains & a Cig. with 575's on the lake. They're great engines!! We noticed a big difference in performance when we upgraded from 500's. High-octane availability is an issue however if the demand exists someone will always fill the void.

Woodsy, your post on winni.com was excellent!! Thanks for making such a strong and thorough case against the night time speed limit!!

Sounds like (no pun intended...) a good deal. I guess that's the bennie to blowers, one pulley change and voila! more hp. I think, if I'm not mistaken I've seen you guys out and about, as there was only one other OL on the lake last year. It looked like a new 42 w/ 900's & #6's... It was coming down Meredith bay the first time I saw it and she was mooooooving!!! But awful quiet, not sure what was up with that. Caught up to it in the Channel and got a look under that hatch, unreal! Do you have the white base with the yellow/lt. purple-ish graphics and painted drives? Sweet ride... Now, if I can convince my wife that the 37OL is a better choice than the 38 TG that she really likes, we're in business... Now, if I can only get that trust fund declaration reworded, it's off to Bristol, RI I go...

We heard about that boat. What was the paint job like?
Also, Mike Fiore had his GTX at the lake at the end of June for Fitzgerald's boat show. Unfortunately, we missed him because of bad weather. Since the lake was desolate we heard he launched his boat and was running across the Broads in the high 120's!!!

Here we are:

[IMG]C:\My Documents\My Pictures\boat\Boat4.jpg[/IMG]

D'oh!
My picture didn't come through. I gotta work on this.
Anyways, yeah that's the boat--white, purple, red, yellow, etc. with painted drives.