Will we go to war with Iraq?
 

Well, it seems to be just about showtime. I don't know how to set up a poll, and really was just looking for opinions on whether or not anyone thinks we will end up going to war with Iraq. I have heard some brain trusts around the office talking that we (USA) are taking the right steps and will effectively "black mail" Saddam out of power.

France and Germany are so opposed because they have contracts with IRAQ for drilling in an area right on the Iraqi border thar is estimated to have 10 billion barells available. So obviously they are in opposition, only for monetary reasons not humanitarian reasons as they claim.

There is a tremendous amount of opposition to military actions here at home, but is also amazing the way the american people can rally behind the president when he gives a speach explaining why we are going into battle.

I am not really sure if with my limited knowledge I can say for sure that we will go to battle or not. If we do, I hope it is soon and swift.

Bush Junior has a hard-on for Saddam, he is trying to do what daddy couldn't. And to answer your question,, YES,, I feel it is inevitable...

There is too much we don't know to make an educated wild ass guess.

My feelings lean towards eliminating the current regime in that dispicable nation and restoring/implementing a better, more trustworthy government. That means war. The time has come. The lies, cunning, false statements and uncooperativeness is enough.

The rest of the world wants it, too, but are too afraid to be outspoken about it.

Remember, the media elsewhere is no different than here. Bad news makes good news and so do anti-war marches made up of the minority.

Relief will be better than not knowing.

If not now, than we will wait for the war to come to us.

It's time to rethink our historical reactive approach and become proactive for once.

YEP !!

if "WE" you or me, were the ones that were going to go to the front lines and be shooting and getting shot at, and maybe the results of some twisted BIOLOGICAL experiment from Sadaam, would we be so willing to pull the trigger and say "Lets Go"? Just a thought!:confused:

My thoughts are worth only about what I get paid for them...

I think we will go to war but not for why many folks think. If it were only about oil we could have cut a deal with Sadaam, lifted the embargo, and gotten all we want. But the US doesn't deal with governments that don't do as they say they will.

It's about keeping our agreement with the UN that Iraq was not to build an arsenal capable of inflicting devastating harm on any people or country, the US, Europe, or the Mid East and within Iraq.

It's about Sadaam's record of euthenizing thousands of people that oppose his regime. Remember his use of biological weapons on the Kurds?

It's about the oppression of a people and the United States' LONG STANDING and very noble policy of promoting democracy. Not for any individual political gain but for the freedom of people.

All of the above is about the protection of YOUR rights and interests throughout the world.

Finally, I don't think for one instant that this is some unfinished business of the Bush family. it's what needs to be done. If Al Gore, Colin Powell, or Micky Mouse were president we'd be facing the same choices.

JohnJan,
You're right...This has nothing to do with oil.

War is not pretty, hence the name, but a necessary evil nonetheless.

History proves time and time again, that it is the ultimate motivator. Empires do not rise and fall without it, and prosperity cannot survive without it. Evil will always rear it's head at every juncture in time, sitting idle while the enemy mounts accomplishes nothing but self destruction.

"We" is all of us, and no one who claims to be a proud American shall hesitate to defend our great nation. If we don't fight now, we'll be fighting a much different war later.

It is not a question of IF we are going to war. I believe its a question of WHEN.

I agree with JohJan and Bajadaze that there is much more to it than oil, and that mees the eye per se. Saddam is truly the face of evil. No one in their right mind can deny that. He is even starving his own military. They are mal-nurished and fighting for him, who has multiple castles and lives far above his means. His murder and torture are unspeakable and certainly on the order of Hitlers. Maybe not as many in number, but nonetheless horrific. Furthermore, if we do not take some pre-emptive measure now, it be merely a retaliatory move if we wait. We must not forget the other truly evil lurker out there...Osama Bin Laden. We must fight to continue to break up and destroy his cells, and sleepers. I say we, because I will fight if necessary. We are a country and we all stand to lose when just one soldier dies. Unfortunately, death is part of war, and war is what a soldier does. Our soldiers are the BEST in the world and I am certain they will fair well.

Uhhhh... what about North Korea then?

Have nukes? Yup
Have Bio? Yup
Have missles? Yup
Repressive? Oh yeah
Desperate? no doubt
Have oil? Nope

Hmmmmm could we be starting a trend here?

My guess is that Sadam will flee his country with his cronies before we start shooting (I hope he tries to fly out thru a no-no zone). He can't burn the oil fields this time because we've got them protected. A convoy would get blown away by a drone. He'll have to crawl out. Hope only that he doesn't set off some of his biologicals first...

I agree North Korea is a hot bed, but no the powder keg that Hussein is. North Korea seems to care if they live and they seem to want to become part of the global community. Difference is, tehy need oil and money and their tactics from a BIG DISTANCE (our view point as ordinary citizens) are more political in nature than as serious a threat as Iraq. Agreed, my instincts come from what the news media tells us. I really have no other sources for info. However, after reading alot, and watching and listening, I think Iraq is a MUCH MORE viable threat to us or our allies than North Korea. I certainly may be wrong, but that is my take on the situation.

Daze and JohnJan......I totally agree. And don't forget the attemped assassination of #41 !!!:hothead: :hothead:

Dano.....their next. Dont' forget the "axis of evil." They (Iran, Irq and North Korea) were mentioned for a reason. It was to set the groundwork to take care of all three of them over time.....one by one.....:D :D

I Have A Question? Why Are We (US) In Ever Elses Business... We Can't Even Keep Our Economy Going.... Homeless On The Streets, Unemployment, Schools Are A Mess..... I Don't Understand Why We Are So Dependent On Other Countrys???? If We Need A Product Thats Not Made In The U.S. Then Build A Factory And Produce The Product....
You Watch We Will End Up Bombing The Hell Out Of Iraq And Then We Will Spent Thousands Of U.S. Dollars Rebuilding The Country.........

I Just Don't Get It.....

Jeff

N. Korea has the same deadly potential. However, I believe they may be more restrained.

Secondly, They'll have to wait. The clinton administration eliminated our ability to conduct two simultaneous "Major Theatres of War" (MTW)

Can't Even Keep Our Economy Going.... Homeless On The Streets, Unemployment, Schools Are A Mess.....
These are complex socioeconomic issues that all civilized nations face. These problems are pale in comparrison to the alternatives of not defending our national interests by procrastinating.

Make no mistake, it will come unto our soil if inaction continues.
It has started already...

Also, do not forget that some of the economic issues we are facing today resulted from the threat hitting our own soil namely 9/11. I realize the economy already had problems but there is no question they were worsened by the terrorist attacks. Look at United Airlines.

As far as N. Korea, them still seem willing to engage in a diplomatic solution. If that fails and a conflict does start it will certainly be messier than a war with Iraq. Will China sit on the sidelines?

yes, I just hope we get it done quick and get our attention back on the nations economy. Like keep going on the tax cuts.

o course we will, how else does GWB keep your attention off his miserable stewardship of the economy?

I believe most third world countrys already hate the US. So that makes us the bad guys. WE should work on the rest of Europe for support first.
At least last time(when we didn't finish the job) we had the backing of the UN and a large number of nations. Also we weren't attacking Iraq , but liberating Kawait from Iraq invasion. Hence we were the "good guys".
IMHO if we sprearhead the attack of Iraq we could be in a world of chit because ,lets face it , Saddam is one crazy MoFo. He's already used chemical weapons on his own people. And when we attack , we go after military installations/munition dumps/airports...things that will stop HIM and save as many innocent people as possible. If he does anything here it will be on the general pubic , ala , WTC.
My idea...take him out quitely...Supranos style:D

seems to me that bush's war mongering has left us hated by the world once again:(

Wonder what the worlds opinion will be when Iraq uses the very weapons they have said they do not possess?

I think war is inevitable now. We have way too many assets in place to merely rattle the saber. The only thing that can prevent it is the complete capitulation of Saddam.

Saber, I don't recall the US being invited to many middle east birthday parties when Slick was running the country either.

Iraq....it's not if....it's when.

This should probably go on it's own thread but speaking of taking care of things at home first.....what the hell happened in Cali after the SuperBowl? What's wrong with these people? We can't even enjoy a good sporting event without some kind of ridiculous behavior happening!

As for Iraq, I agree that we should be swift, direct, and not rest on our laurels and get the job done. In situations like this that we have been involved with before I never understand why we don't do it "Sopranos style" and just have the guy assassinated? Would it really be that difficult to send a group of special forces in with high power rifles and take care of the target?

And yes, I agree that the homeless, unemployment, economic problems are socio-economic in nature and not necessarily specific to our country. Although in times like this I also question why we allow immigrants to come into our country. I realize that freedom is what most are seeking, but it's always been on the back of my mind, especially in times like this.

Whoah...I'm getting pretty deep and not really trying to start a huge discussion about the problems of our country....YIKES!:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

dave 1972,

yes, there a lot of problems with this country right now and we have a prez. who seems more interested in a 12 year old grudge than the people in this country facing hard times.

cuda,

clinton did not set the tone with the middle east, it was done about 20 years ago. funny how all the war mongers in this administration have managed to avoid military service, and thus any real experience with the costs of war, or have spent their military time defending such hot spots as georgia from the viet-cong.

Great thread, and I respect everyones opinion, I won't add mine and try to justify it, no need, so I will just state a couple facts.
9/11 changed us forever. Period.
The last UN resolution said he must disarm, todays report was not promising, all the big UN players voted in favor.

I can tell you, Norfolk Va. is a ghost town, yes, it is a question of when, not if. GWB's speech to the country tomorrow night should be good, maybe a hint on what will come in the future.
Bryan Tuvell
(active duty Navy Officer, 21 years in April 03)

Considering the Left is totally responsible for this mess I stand amazed that they even show their Faces.

After March over there it starts to get very warm I look towards the middle of February!

Well in my humble and probably misguided opinion...war sucks period. I have seen it, been around it, and I can tell you everybody LOSES in one way or another.
I have traveled the world pretty extensively and have seen a lot of different cultures and I can tell you one thing nobody wants war (well maybe those crazy tong dudes in Shanghai).

US ground involvement in the middle east will be a huge mistake. The rest of the world better ante up and convince the Iraqi military to act and depose him for OUR on good. One thing everyone seems to forget is that regardless of what we think the reason he was left in power the last time was because of the vacuum created if he was toppled. The aftermath of a NO DOUBT ABSOLUTE MILITARY WIPE-OUT by the US will be far worse...look at the freakin history when we do this stuff...anybody remember Chile, Panama, Argentina, Korea, Sudan, Honduras, Vietnam etc. etc. etc just to name a few? Who the hell is going to control the

The guy is a PUTZ but is he any worse than a 100 other PUTZES running around acting like God? One thing you have to remember is we supported this bastard for years. Where the hell do you think he got this ****? We take him out like this then what? On top of the lives lost on both sides we have to prop whoever we put in. So to add to the HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS we spend kicking his azz we then spend that 10 fold doing maintenance? The US leads by example and the fact that we can/could pretty much vaporize anyone or anything we want simply means with power comes control...don't forget power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. We are a Republic which has a democracy that comes with a price of due diligence.

If we take them out (and I mean all of them, because that ******* probably won't die unless we do...remember the other turbaned gentleman?) use the Neutron bomb and be done with it. At least the familiy members that live won't be blowing themselves up everyplace. Then take the 100's of BILLIONS left and take half for a US TAX PAYER BREAK and the other half and open up a buttload of AMERICAN BUSINESS...we WIN by ASSIMILATION.

Remember when if you won a war that country was yours. I think that ended when began fighting in countries we dont want.

EITHER/OR

Either Saddam Disarms
OR
We go to war.

Bush Sr. royally fked up by letting the whining UN hand-wringers shame him into leaving the job undone. You DONT fight a WAR and then leave the enemy intact. Diplomacy is a wonderful tool for heightened negotiations and second chances. WARS are not for second chances.

As far as the UN, the whining feys were never on the same wavelength going into this inspection ordeal. They were never prepared to sign their name to military action. They had far prefer to back away and wave their hands while we do the dirty work for them.

STEWARDSHIP of the economy? You gotta be kidding me ! ?
Here, Saber, my boat is sinking. Big hole in the hull. No patch. It;s all yours. Be a good steward. (Course these discussions have been proven to go nowhere good since you are thorougly convinced that GW singlehandedly managed to swing the dynamic momentum of the entire US economy to the bad in 2 and a half weeks).

North Korea? Diplomacy has not yet been proven to be ineffective. You always gotta "diplomacize" first. Gotta give it plenty of opportunity to offer a bettering situation. Only when diplomacy fails must war be considered. When diplomacy AND WAR both fail, and resumed diplomacy continues to fail, then WAR is the obvious solution.

Do I LIKE this? No.
Do I understand that it must/should take place? Of course.

War is expensive and I expect it to be far from a boost for our ailing economy. I'm truly sorry that some of Saber's government assist programs he is so fond of may suffer budgeting troubles. The poor illegal border-crossing Mexican unwed mothers may not be given their own 900 square foot house in which to raise her illegitimate streetgang-to-be family of eight.

And woe be unto the country if some business owner saves enough money in corporate taxes that he is allowed to weather the economic slump and continue to provide good American jobs making good quality American products to his 235 employees that would otherwise be standing in the soup lines that Saber is so happy to see the government provide.

I only hope that this time the US military is allowed to finish the job so we can move to the next chapter.

I work in a government facility with military (Seals, etc.), and don't think for a moment that they are not ready to give the Iraqi SOBs absolute HELL. Lots of minigun music on the river lately....

President Bush is carrying out a promise he made to the American public, and to the world, and bears a tremendous burden in the process. He didn't start the fight, but is damn well ready to finish it.

The cowards in this country that want to stick their heads in the sand should try to keep the images Sept. 11 in their minds. Our economy will survive, and we will prevail.

Bulldog AKA Ronnie

mcolliston,

I bet you are an engineer. Not only by this post but also your explanations of things mechanical and physics related. Nonetheless, your points are right on, well thought out and articulated. THANKS FOR FOR SHARING. I only wish more people were as enlightened to reality as yourself.

Saber might have a point.

Another Bush -- Another recession
Another Bush -- Another war with Iraq

What's up with that? Is this family a result of a cloning experiment? :D :eek: :D

Just remember.........over 60 years ago, there was another tyranical scumbag in the making that was hellbent on world domination.

Nobody paid him much attention, or thought of him as much of a threat. BOY WAS EVERYONE WRONG !!!!!!!!:rolleyes: :( :(

Let's make sure we have learned from our past mistakes, misjudgements, and miscalculations.......

I was going to reply.........But....

Mcollinstn said it all......Much better than i could !

How about it Saber.....Do you realy think that ?

I find this interesting where was this outrage from the LEFT … (1998) when Slick and algore were looking for support for their puny Iraq response??

Simple Steve, my friend.........

They knew, just like everyone else, that any military action Willy took against Iraq, Sudan, etc. was to keep HIM off the front pages and the 6 o'clock news........:mad::rolleyes::mad::rolleyes:

Typically hate wading in on these threads as they tend to degenerate into one side of the political spectrum bashing the other side – which has nothing to do with Shane’s fair and good initial request! However, I love a debate on a worthy topic, so here’s my two cents.

Maybe the real question here is why? Why should we go to war – not will we! It’s my belief that the reason why is related to the age old principle that ties each generation to the next. The idea that as parents we strive to leave the world in better shape for our children, grandchildren, etc. That never ending pursuit of the improvement of the human condition.

The middle east doesn’t hate us because we support Israel. They hate us because we support democracy, freedom, justice. The Islamic world has very few democracies. Malaysia and Turkey are notable exceptions.

Risk Taker is right on with his analogy to Hitler. Terrorists evidently control large segments of Arab opinion the way the Nazis once controlled Germany. Similarities include their swagger and lies, their dispensing of hallucinogenic ideology to the very poor, and by murdering their opponents.

Make no mistake, dictators are not ideologists, they are enslavers! From Lenin to Stalin to Hitler to the ayatollahs to Saddam and bin Laden, totalitarianism has always been married to terrorism. But to assure that this evil does not keep re-emerging, decade after decade, we must not merely uproot terror but also plant the seeds of democracy! That’s the end game – that’s how we marginally improve the human condition so our children’s children inherit a better place.

There are any number of outcomes to the current Iraq situation. Many of these might temporarily solve the weapons-of-mass-destruction boogie man. But they would stop the more compelling reason for the U.S. going to war – the rapid emergence of democracy in the region. Liberty for the Iraqi people is not just a great moral cause or an economic necessity, for our children, it’s a great strategic goal!

So, Shane my friend, I guess I am not really answering your question, “whether or not we will go to war with Iraq?” I guess I am making the statement that I hope we do!

As always UT, your insightfulness and eloquence adds much to many discussions here on the board. Even if you cannot change your own drive oil.:p ;) Your points hit the nail on the head. I think if we take some of each of the comments mentioned here today and forwarded them to the White House speach writing team, they would have some great points to make tonight. Joe, your ability to draw upon your professional experiences around the globe have proven once again insightful and enlightening. The question of why, or do you think we should go to war and why, is much more pertinant after reading your post. Thanks for sharing.:)

I know I am very happy I am not President Bush. I would not want the responsibilty. It is something very few men are capable of. No President has left office unscathed. They are all battered and bashed by all sides. It is very easy for those on the outside to make judgement calls and decisions when we really don't have all the information, or will be held accountable for such decisions. With that said, I feel an offensive tactical plan would be much more effective in this extremely sensitive climate we are engaged in. Just my 02, but I feel war is eminent. No, I don't condone war, but I believe I will sleep better knowing we have a President who will comandeer the resources available to him, in turn, thwarting off a truly oppressive situation.