racing today and yesterday
 

broke out a old offshore tape toinght jest grabbed one out of the case . it was from 1998 when we had open class b sv s a 1 2 do you realy thank todays racing is better as far as a fan point view i realy enjoyed seeing mat jerry john forest boby more going at it to bad we diont have them know what's your point of view

I saw Forest Barber racing cars on Speed last night. Wonder why he left offshore.

Seems that people race for about 5 years and then split. The exceptions are people like Team Instigator, Bandit racing, Firewater. Its hard to name people who have been racing for more than 10 years consecutively. I'm talking about people who pay for their ride, not hired guns like JT or Jerry G.

Forests team was called Feeds the need. He is feeding that with sportscars.
Another team I know said they would quit when it was no longer fun. They quit 2 seasons ago. They were in for well over 10 years.

I was watching the f1 racecar race last night. The thing that made it interesting was Alonso running down Shumacher. There will always be new blood in racing, it is keeping them in the sport that is the challenge.

pat W

i thank gene whipp did a damn good job i loved seeing 160+ a whole lot better than 120 i thank we had the best back then

Amen

T2x

Whittier, Patel, Muller, Mauff, Stancombe, Glovick, Troppoli, all of these guys are 10 + year vetrans. I've down some work for Forrests racecar team this year and I can tell you he is having a VERY frustrating time working the bugs out of his new Doran/Chevy Daytona Prototype.

I have been following offshore powerboat racing since the mid seventies.While there has always been expensive, cool, loud ,fast boats at the race events.....the biggest difference is in the level of competition.The competition based rules established in the last few years have made the events a RACE and not a SHOW.The Super Cat class boats may not run as fast or be as exotic as the old Open or Superboat class boats, but the boats are more evenly matched and thus, in my opinion, much more exciting to watch!

I also think the other spec classes:SCL,SV,F2 & F1 are better to watch than the old Modified,Super Vee, B & A classes.

One class that I wish that could be brought back, is the original Stock class.Watching those small Skaters,Motions and Talons with twin stock 200HP outboards battle it out in rough seas was really exciting.I am sure Ryan agrees with me on this one!

Very good points.........However:

1. The top classes are underpowered and have no mid range "punch". Therefore they can't throttle out of harm's way.
This is unsafe ...and........ reduces the sex appeal of those classes in the pits.

2. The Factory vee classes resemble a Poker Run. They are fine development classes, but they have no impact (nor business being) on TV. .........As a result no fan base is being developed.

3. There are too many classes .....by a factor of 4.....This is bewildering to the casual (and dedicated) observor.....As a result no fan base is being developed.

5. There is no meaningful outboard representation........especially a single engine starter class........ This is where you REALLY see (and experience) close competition....It is a much better training ground than Factory One (Boats more responsive to water conditions etc...) and is considerably more economical.

Embroider the above points into "The Plan" and , I believe, the sport will be better than it ever was....

T2x

very comical
 

Rich:

Here you go again! No fan base? The new Super V class is not gaining a fan base? A Skater V- Bottom VS Fountains VS Phantoms VS Cigarettes - etc. Poker Runs? Tell Rick Turmel he's running a Poker Run when they're sliding that Fountain in the turns in Marathon. So I guess the fan base was better back in the 80's when boats were broken down and lost at sea? In 1999 there were (2) Open Class boats running and then Alcone went to Europe and left Drambuie to run as a exibition class - BH

Small Open class fields = thrilling exhibition, but more of a technical exercise between a few teams.
Current Super Cat/Super V = 20 mph slower, but very few fans can tell from shore. Way more potential winners. Better racing.
Too many classes? Yep.

T2x,
I agree with all your points, but especially with the single outboard vee class.Do you think there are enough boats around to get it going again at least here in the N.E.?

Stock Outboard Vee or Stock 1 (S1-).....

21-22 FT production vee/max 225HP any manufacturer.

Might be a way to bring alot of new people into the sport.I think OPA was considering something like this.
Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?

Re: very comical
 

Brian.....

Factory class racing is great........but not on TV......

I didn't mention Rick T. (whom I respect and have known for years)......

I didn't say the fan base was better...(or worse) than the 80's (although we were on ABC)..... A fan base is defined for marketing/sponsor purposes as a group of people who understand the sport well enough to find it and follow it on TV ............... not see it once a year when the "circus" rolls into their town. This base.......is NOT growing.....because they (me...you) can't comprehend the classes, personalities, or competition.

Open class in 1999 was indicative of nothing I mentioned. Super Cat had better engines during the first year....and have been de-nutted since....and I believe that is dangerous....... I also believe the cockpits allowed currently can be improved......and some of them allow for grave injuries.

I suggest you stop being defensive.......... and open your mind to the possibility that the sport under anyone's direction.....is FAR from perfect.

I told you, I'm on no organization's "side"......... I'd just love to see someone get it right.

T2x

P.S. I'm glad you find me comical......... Because he who laughs last........

There are at least 30-40 guys on Long Island alone with single engine 21-24 foot Challengers, Superboats, Shadows, Progressions, Sutphens, Velocities....etc that race around like lunatics. Give them a shot ...and a class....and they will come.

That's where Joey Imprescia, JD Delia, George Linder, The Kalibats, JT, and bunch of others, all got their feet wet.

T2x

Yes.......but are these the only two choices?????

Can't we have a closely matched "spec" engine with some mid range torque?????? Or is the current formula God's final solution?

It's sad that the engines are "sponsor" based.....not racer based.

T2x

Mike:

You've agreed with me on most things....... until the LLC topic came up........

Things that make one cock an eyebrow....eh?

T2x

Is there actually a 21-24 foot single engine class????? I honestly can't tell. But, the fact that no one has "showed up" at a race sight with one.....reflects a failure on whose part...the guy with the boat...or the race producers?

T2x

Mike....... The original Miami-Nassau races were in the 60's....( John Crouse ran a couple 20 years later for BIGGG boats ( 55' Magnums...50' Buzzi's ...etc) mainly. The 41 Apaches never raced much further than Bimini in '86. The biggest problem is the inability to cover the course with Medical and Safety helicopters....... and people do actually get lost.

T2x

T2x,
I remember those guys racing the single outboard boats in the NPBA/APBA A Class.The Kalibats in the "K&K Ghost" and J.D Delia in "Breakaway" were worth going to watch a race to just to see how fast they would run those boats in big water....often blowing by big inboard powered vees!!!!!!!!If these guys really want to race, I hope the OPA will offer them a class.

P6.... to 69mph/24ft/single o/b

Yeah....... but, of course they could never beat Audacity;)

T2x

Billy Frenz mentioned at the meeting that he would talk to his guys about getting involved with OPA....I'd assume the smaller boats are included in that group.....

Could be Fun!!

:cool:

Now we're adding another class and I'm sure all these 24 ft boats have canopies , right? I'm not being defensive Rich - just playing on the internet like you and having a damn good time! Now I know you have to be a dispatcher - haha - BH

At 50-70 mph....... they aren't racing at fatal speeds.

T2x

So now we're racing at 50 mph? Now that's some torque! What years were you racing offshore Rich? BH

Good grief.....I'm talking about single engine outboard boats.....

Anti stuff/rollover canopies are needed when accidents occur at lethal speeds (generally 80 mph plus).........

Roll cages are needed to prevent injury when boats have continual contact opportunities....and that may apply to the little boats.

T2x

Maybe it's the people that follow me around.

Actually, the only threads that turn to that substance are the ones regarding the LLC..........

T2x

On a more positive note.....

I suggest:

1. Feature class.....75% of TV time on main program

2. One secondery class....remaining 25% of TV time.

3. Unlimited Development classes with Water Mouse or whatever for kids, Single O/B for the budget conscious, as many Factory classes as the manufacturers want to play with, Outlaw and whatever for whomever wants to tinker and develop.....and no TV for any of it.......or a separate program for racer satisfaction....on a much more modest budget.

Build the fan base around personalities in 1 and 2 above.

Keep it simple....and they will come.

T2x

I agree with Rich on a few points as well as with C_Spray. For whatever it is worth here are my thoughts.

I would love to see a class specifically designed for the smaller outboard boats. Like Rich said, lots of them out there. P-Class really doesn't work all that well for us because I can be matched with a 388 Slingshot and in rough water it ain't even close. Brakcet style racing is cool, but I think it works better for cars than boats because we are racing on an inconsistant medium and therefore speeds can be DRASTICALLY effected. The other thing is that entry fees should be less for smaller classes as these teams are generally on a much tighter budget and will not be getting the exposure that the big boys are getting.

Regarding Factory racing and TV time. I actually think it is far better watching F1 and F2 racing as there are more competitors and the racing is generally closer. These smaller boats are feeling the effects of the rough water and it shows. The BIG guys are usually running on top and clearly not bouncing and launching off waves like the smaller boats. This is not to say that they are having a smooth ride but from a spectators point of view, especially on TV, F1 and F2 are more exciting. Additionally if one boat breaks it is not like 20% of the field is now out of the race.

Just simple thoughts from a simple guy.

Rich I agree a class for 21' to 24' single engines would be great. Only needed on the local level. I think the reason we do not see many of these boats in P class is, what is the point in running your single 21' shadow against a 35' twin in the same class?, no hope.
I know everybody always talks about TV coverage but lets face it no matter what class or race course or any other factor involved, boat racing is always going to have a small fan base. The races are always going to be mostly for the racers,never mass appeal . Cart and Indy cars are barely making it on TV. There will only be NASCAR I do not know why but that is where the interest is. One could not put more money in Formula one racing but it does not enjoy any where near as much popularly as NASCAR does in the good old USA.
This is just my opinion but after watching offshore for 25 years and hearing about the great boom TV coverage will provide, And watching all the great effort of those involved one has to realize It aint never gona happen. Offshore racing is still my favorite form of racing but we are the minority.

All of the above is EXACTLY correct! Most likely the main reason why so many people have turned to other forms of racing and or poker runs.

There is a 24ft , single engine boat that is affordable to get into, its the 24ft Batboat. it is a great class to start in. as for the 24ft outboards, that would make a great class as well, when the large (V-6) outboards first came out and showed up on some race boats, the big spenders where pissed that some guy with a bolt on could beat them at half the cost and power. but times have changed and those bolt ons arent as cheap. As for the overall appeal of TV coverage when only one boat is in the picture, and they show it for 30 secs or more it isnt very entertaining, as for bow to bow racing yes exciting, as for the politics, i could do without, too many views and opinions.
If we could only stick to making the sport grow, give a reason for sponsors to come to offshore racing.

Pro and amature classes. That way everyone gets a trophy or a flag. There will be a lot of amatures if JT is racing. Maybe some of the *****ing will go away. I'll buy the trophy's if my stuff is legal,:D
pat W

Bingo!..........

In an earlier thread MMwalters said he didn't know why Nascar had the inside track on TV and fans.......

Mike just gave the answer......personality development. Earnhart fans against Gordon fans against Mark Martin against Labonte' etc, etc....and people care. Put these same guys in tunnel boats or Super Cats keep the sponsors and the behind the scenes story development and the fans would follow....as long as these guys stayed in a SINGLE class.

Before there were "spec engines Nascar rose to prominence on names like Petty, Waltrip, Fireball Roberts and Cale Yarbrough........ driving high powered street cars.

The competition "model" followed the development of these personalities and is a separate and distinct issue...and is not the source of the success.....it is a "value added" issue for owners and spectators.

The "model's" purpose is to limit cost and improve competition......... butb of and by itself....it's boring.

The personalities ....fill the seats.

Offshore has no real rivalries...and the ones that do exist... JT vs Jerry...... Bill Mauff vs Hugh Fuller.... are basically seen only in the pits or discussed over a beer by those in the "know".

The TV shows can't build on them because the myriad of classes create rivalries all over the place with no rhyme nor reason.

Hence we build no fan base............

Shane you may rather watch Factory classes...but if the average couch potato could watch Gordon, Jr., Mark Martin, The Labonte's, Awesome Bill, etc...race boats ..do you think they'd rather see them in Factory One Warlocks.......or Super Cats?

T2x.......... agreeing with Fever Mike.

T2x,

Although I already know what your response will be, my answer to that question is I would rather see them in F1 or F2 Boats. Why? Because that extra speed means nothing on TV or on shore for the most part. The high flying, hard hitting, bone jarring bumps, jumps and air time make for more exciting racing especially when in close quarters than does a 40 foot cat gracing the wave tops at ease. Don't get me wrong, youand I know it still takes a tremendous amount of skill to run those super cats. But when viewing the racing it amounts to little excitement.

Shane.................agreeing with myself!;)

One thing I forgot to mention...Look at the foundation that NASCAR was built on. The personalities that T2x mentioned were racing off the shelf style cars. Just like F1 and F2. In some cases they were actually street cars hopped up. So maybe a little of T2x and little of my idea might actually yield some results!;) Team work, imagine that.:)

In fact.......I'd rather see them in Tunnel Boats......

Maybe, I have a prejudice against pleasure boats but to me an idle viewer prefers rail dragsters to stock bodies, hydros to monohulls...and real race boats to runabouts.

The main thing we can agree on.....is put them in ONE type.....not 30. I've lived first hand the years of wasted effort and lost TV impressions as we (myself included) struggled to get sound bites that created some form of coherent story line. I've been in V/O's where the announcers had to run the same footage over and over in a vain attempt to put something down on the audio that untangled the jumble we were faced with. The term "deck to deck" has been repeated to death......and there's only so many "WOWEE's" you can inject......as you cut away from big cat to small vee, to outboard, to Super boat, to One Design.......To Baja commercial.

T2x

T2x....thanks for the comment...nice to see i'm on your mind. :D

Personality
 

T2X, I agree with you.

NASCAR fans are crazy and they are fanitcal about racing. Also, everyone knows about the Viagra Car, or the Budweiser Car, etc. Look at Tunnel boat racing, it was pretty popular for a while. Everyone know's the Miss Budweiser. That boat made a name for itself and attracted fans.

Racing has changed a lot, and btw I think APBA is a sinking ship. What happens when you sped $500K on a new rig and APBA decides to change the rules on you so that your setup is illegal? I know of a lot of guys who left the business because of things like that.

My company sponsored a boat two years ago and it turned out to be a waste of money. Why???? The races didn't attract people, and it had no marketing value for our company to spend that kind of money again. Like they say, "Build it and they will come". If racing can make corporations money, I am sure there will be big sponsors, which attract $$$$, and in turn attract fans etc. etc.

Just my opinion, not sure if its the right one. But just my opinion.

Panther

ok Fever Mike I gotta call you on the BMX comment. I've been racing BMX for 20 plus years. When I started Kinetic I had just turned Pro in BMX too. There haven't been any rule changes to speak of in the history of BMX, talk about a sport with very little technology, the only thing thats really changed is now almost every kid is on clip in 10-speed shoes. Oh yea the is also 2 organizations in the BMX world too, they also schedual races ontop of each other and generally just screw with each other.
P.S. when you are feeling better I've got a seat in the 24 for you on ANY weekend.

Boy NPSA that is OOOOOOLD!!! There are still guys that try to race gears it's not really worth the trouble. You can legally race a mountain bike in the cruiser classes no in the NBL and ABA . I heard about some guy getting caught at Sarasota ( The OLDEST running track in the country 25+ years) with some type of spring loading device in the rear hub. Where as he would sit on the starting gate and pedal backwards to load it and some how when the gate dropped it was like a sling shot????? That got banned.

t2x how right you are, and thanks for the complement ! i feel i have arrived in offshore . shifter thanks you are right to , i know nascar scucks i used to work in it i know first hand , but some of the things they do to day to offshore sucks worse, x dem prop size sucks and im'm sory 160 is a hole lot faster than 110 if you cant see that you are blind what would top fuel dragerst do at 110 vers 300 can you tell the different sorry guys we cant run 300 no more it un safe and x man can run 340 so we are going to slow him down to 300 and see who wins bull **** they would be no race fans , if the slow them down to 110 would they the smaller classes are nice for me trying to get into racing but what do people go to see 75 mph 160 mph who has the most fans and i liked seeing the old racing better