HP 525 overheating?
07-09-2003 | 10:38 AM
#31
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Following your issues Gordo and comments made about the race engines ability to enter a limp or failsafe mode, Engineers from GM said that they had the ability to reprogram the ECU for competition engines - either raising the threshold or removing the failsafe completely. Was this ever done?
Also, it was my understanding that Randy's engine did enter failsafe - was there any engine damage due to the overheating?
Finally, has the cause of the overheating been established?
Also, it was my understanding that Randy's engine did enter failsafe - was there any engine damage due to the overheating?
Finally, has the cause of the overheating been established?
07-09-2003 | 09:05 PM
#32
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Gentlemen,
It sounds like the 525's overheating problem is an obstruction or rigging problem. Check your exhaust for proper restricters, And as for closed cooling systems, ask any good engine builder. An engine that runs at temperature is more efficient and makes horse power. And the shutdown mode just plain saves you $$$$
It sounds like the 525's overheating problem is an obstruction or rigging problem. Check your exhaust for proper restricters, And as for closed cooling systems, ask any good engine builder. An engine that runs at temperature is more efficient and makes horse power. And the shutdown mode just plain saves you $$$$
07-09-2003 | 09:54 PM
#33
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From: Quogue, NY
Typhoon update: Scan shows a low water pressure condition before shutdown. That would tie in with the obstruction theory. Somewhere in the (most likely raw) cooling water. Probably not in the exhaust. The pertinent parts are being inspected as we speak.
07-10-2003 | 07:14 AM
#34
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Mike,
No I do not work for Mercury but I do like their products. In my opinion they build some of the most reliable and trouble free powerplants available. It is true that you get what you pay for.
Regardless, we had a spare and I was looking for something different. Besides, the car is proving to be a tremendous test bed for modifications to the 500 EFI package. It is a lot easier to work on (in the car vs. in the boat) and changes can be tried one at a time.
By the way, where did you get the HP estimates for the 500 in my car? Is this another of your opinions supported by a couple of your friends? You should stop make assumptions based upon limited knowledge and seek out some facts.
I am pleased to hear that progress is being made with Mercury and the Typhoon problem. That is another benefit of the 525 EFI and the Motorola 555 ECU - true data logging. Hopefully all teams will benefit from what is learned this week.
Adivanman
By the way Mike - learn to spell.
No I do not work for Mercury but I do like their products. In my opinion they build some of the most reliable and trouble free powerplants available. It is true that you get what you pay for.
Regardless, we had a spare and I was looking for something different. Besides, the car is proving to be a tremendous test bed for modifications to the 500 EFI package. It is a lot easier to work on (in the car vs. in the boat) and changes can be tried one at a time.
By the way, where did you get the HP estimates for the 500 in my car? Is this another of your opinions supported by a couple of your friends? You should stop make assumptions based upon limited knowledge and seek out some facts.
I am pleased to hear that progress is being made with Mercury and the Typhoon problem. That is another benefit of the 525 EFI and the Motorola 555 ECU - true data logging. Hopefully all teams will benefit from what is learned this week.
Adivanman
By the way Mike - learn to spell.
07-10-2003 | 08:56 AM
#35
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No money to be made racing, however some race to win no matter what the cost. Some teams are out there to win the national title, if you look at the cost of their racing program trashing a $20K motor is nothing.
The teams should have the option of disabling limp mode. Since all teams budgets and goals are different why limit a teams ability to go out and win when a motor problem arises.
Not to open another can of worms but
"In fact I've always imagined offshore as a hobby that sucks up extraordinary amounts of disposable income."
Exactly why the sport will never achieve major success.
The teams should have the option of disabling limp mode. Since all teams budgets and goals are different why limit a teams ability to go out and win when a motor problem arises.
Not to open another can of worms but
"In fact I've always imagined offshore as a hobby that sucks up extraordinary amounts of disposable income."
Exactly why the sport will never achieve major success.
07-10-2003 | 12:10 PM
#37
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Originally posted by Adivanman
Nick,
Unless he is saying that the ECU programming is the same for both the 500 and the 525 then I do not see the relevance. The cooling system is not borrowed, ECU is not borrowed, and a good portion of the Fuel Injection System is not borrowed.
This is the second time that MC has made this statement with nothing to back it up. I would like to know on what basis he is saying this and which components are the problem.
Besides, the GM engines has similar issues that were dealt with when they were first released. I don't see this as being any different.
I also do not see the wisdom in aluminum cylinder heads in salt water but hey, the warranty is pretty short anyway.
Nick,
Unless he is saying that the ECU programming is the same for both the 500 and the 525 then I do not see the relevance. The cooling system is not borrowed, ECU is not borrowed, and a good portion of the Fuel Injection System is not borrowed.
This is the second time that MC has made this statement with nothing to back it up. I would like to know on what basis he is saying this and which components are the problem.
Besides, the GM engines has similar issues that were dealt with when they were first released. I don't see this as being any different.
I also do not see the wisdom in aluminum cylinder heads in salt water but hey, the warranty is pretty short anyway.
You miss a day or two and all hell breaks loose. Anyway...Jim, I didn't say anything about the 500. I meant the technology was borrowed; from the 496 generation of motors: PCM555, cooling...Maybe not the injectors, not sure there.
I'm not trying to knock anyone here. It's a fact with any new product release, there will be problems and bugs to work out(Look at Ford's 6.0). I'm just acknowledging them. When I said in another thread that this isn't the first I've heard of this it's because there have been others. A good buddy of mine from the East coast is having all sorts of troubles with his pair of 525's-one complete failure(18hours) and the other one is on the fritz. There are still no conclusions. It's a fun waiting game. Poor bastard.
And Yes, he's also dealing with intermittent overheating.
Last edited by Baja Daze; 07-10-2003 at 12:13 PM.
07-10-2003 | 01:48 PM
#39
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Nick,
Good to see you back, missed you over the last couple of days. I know that you did not say anything negative except for your personal experiences, I was referring to your reference to ferver mike's comments. I also know that you understand product development and engineering and for that, I respect your observations and opinions.
I do have issues, however, with people who jump on isolated incidents to support their own view point or agenda. From the start I think that it is important to look at the issues with the 525's from an engineering standpoint - number of failures, types of failures, severity of failures, cause of failures.
Based on a single, non-catastrophic, non-internal, water flow related failure in Savannah I do not see a wholesale problem with the package. There are raw water cooling failures every day on the water. That the engine was closed cooling in this situation and had a limp mode vs. a seize mode is fortunate although obviously disappointing in competition.
Based upon the information that we have now there is nothing to support a problem with the 525 or drive. Nor does there have to be a problem with the package. Nor is there any obvious or constructive benefit to continue to point to the manufacturer as the cause of this (thus far) isolated incident.
If the problem was (raw) water pressure there are a host of possible causes, none of which have any relevance to APBA rules (where did that come from) and most of which have no relation to the engine or drive package.
If the problem was a design or development flaw, or inherent to the package, it would be a widespread issue and there should have been more than this single failure in Savannah. Why the ferver (mike) to blame this on Mercury?
Good to see you back, missed you over the last couple of days. I know that you did not say anything negative except for your personal experiences, I was referring to your reference to ferver mike's comments. I also know that you understand product development and engineering and for that, I respect your observations and opinions.
I do have issues, however, with people who jump on isolated incidents to support their own view point or agenda. From the start I think that it is important to look at the issues with the 525's from an engineering standpoint - number of failures, types of failures, severity of failures, cause of failures.
Based on a single, non-catastrophic, non-internal, water flow related failure in Savannah I do not see a wholesale problem with the package. There are raw water cooling failures every day on the water. That the engine was closed cooling in this situation and had a limp mode vs. a seize mode is fortunate although obviously disappointing in competition.
Based upon the information that we have now there is nothing to support a problem with the 525 or drive. Nor does there have to be a problem with the package. Nor is there any obvious or constructive benefit to continue to point to the manufacturer as the cause of this (thus far) isolated incident.
If the problem was (raw) water pressure there are a host of possible causes, none of which have any relevance to APBA rules (where did that come from) and most of which have no relation to the engine or drive package.
If the problem was a design or development flaw, or inherent to the package, it would be a widespread issue and there should have been more than this single failure in Savannah. Why the ferver (mike) to blame this on Mercury?
07-10-2003 | 02:37 PM
#40
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Mike,
Gordo said that there were other boats with 525's that did not finish, he did not identify why they did not finish nor has anyone else in this thread said that there boat suffered a similar failure in Savannah. Given that almost 95% of the boats in F1 and F2 were Mercury powered (according to the APBA website) I would assume that all of the boats with DNF's were Mercury powered. That does not mean that they all overheated and went into limp mode. However, if in fact they did, then there is a problem. Can anyone elaborate on other F1 and F2 failures last weekend?
The majority of the other comments on HP525 failures, "recalls", and issues were presented by, umm, you mike. Based upon my quick search of the general discussion board, there was one other mention of a problem (although the nature of the problem was not identified) and there is Nick's friend. That would be two other problems noted on OSO besides your man on the street knowledge. My understanding is that the Lake X 525's never left the box so I don't think that they failed. Manufacturer's who could not get 525's do not reflect an failure issue either, thats a supply issue.
And for the record, I would be making these same comments if the same finger pointing was occuring with the GM Vortec powerplants, or anyone elses engines for that matter. My objections to your technical "opinions" would be no different.
Gordo said that there were other boats with 525's that did not finish, he did not identify why they did not finish nor has anyone else in this thread said that there boat suffered a similar failure in Savannah. Given that almost 95% of the boats in F1 and F2 were Mercury powered (according to the APBA website) I would assume that all of the boats with DNF's were Mercury powered. That does not mean that they all overheated and went into limp mode. However, if in fact they did, then there is a problem. Can anyone elaborate on other F1 and F2 failures last weekend?
The majority of the other comments on HP525 failures, "recalls", and issues were presented by, umm, you mike. Based upon my quick search of the general discussion board, there was one other mention of a problem (although the nature of the problem was not identified) and there is Nick's friend. That would be two other problems noted on OSO besides your man on the street knowledge. My understanding is that the Lake X 525's never left the box so I don't think that they failed. Manufacturer's who could not get 525's do not reflect an failure issue either, thats a supply issue.
And for the record, I would be making these same comments if the same finger pointing was occuring with the GM Vortec powerplants, or anyone elses engines for that matter. My objections to your technical "opinions" would be no different.
Last edited by Adivanman; 07-10-2003 at 02:44 PM.
