HP 525 overheating?
 

According to Randy Schleuss, the HP525 in his new 29 foot Kryptonite overheated within a few hundred feet of the finish line, which cost him #1 in Savannah. He could recover and finished #2.

This is one more in a series of reports that say that the closed cooling system of the HP525 is underdimensioned and is prone to overheating. Comments? Reports?

Overheating problem w/ the HP525 were reported in this thread:

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...&highlight=525

Not that your blaming Mercury for the # 2 position...But to overheat the thing???
You guys running temp gauges?
The trick is to see it(look at a gauge)getting hot and back off the sticks a little.
Then after the #1 Trophe and check, call Mercury and discuss a fix. ;)

I bet the number 1 guy didn't have to back off the throttles. WHAT! BACK OFF THE THROTTLES?
Now that sucks!


Shame because I hear n see boaters are having problems with the 525's but No on wants to admit they have a problem.


The first step is to admit the problem! :D

APBA website says killswitch came out. Is that the real story?

It's total bunk and it always makes a team look stupid. Whenever someone has technical problems, the first thing that makes the rounds is "the dumb chit pulled the kill switch." But APBA should know better than to engage in gossip.

According to Randy, who was in the boat, the engine overheated and the computer did shut it down.

The APBA website also claims that Randy & Glenn "stole" the lead.

Was this the first time that they ever run the boat? I don't see how a closed cooling malfunction could just happen. Not trying to bust anyone's stones - just wondering.

Hmm, a suggestion of pilot error, perhaps?

Well, it was the second time they ran the boat (Kilo runs Friday, race Saturday) and it was the third time the boat has been on the water (testing on Wednesday.)

A closed cooling malfunction can happen easily if the heat exchanger is underdimensioned. Heat exchanger can't exchange enough heat, computer sees high water temp, computer switches into limp home mode. A more than likely scenario given the 100+ temps in Savannah plus the past reports of problems with the HP525 cooling. And summer has not really started.

I will be taking delivery of a Kryptonite with HP525 in a week (hopefully.) If the weather stays as hot as it is, I might be able to replicate Savannah conditions.

Calling all gearheads: Assuming there is a problem, how could it be rectified before Merc gets around to rectifying it - forgetting about APBA regs for the moment? What would be the solution? How hard would it be to solve? Auxiliary heat exchanger? Second water pump?

I've read somewhere that with other engines with closed cooling, Merc recommends a 2nd water pump when driven in water temps higher than 85 degrees. Can't find the source. Help?

I read the other thread about overheating but no one put any temp numbers down. What kind of temps are we talking about?

According to Throttleman Randy, warning horn came on at 190 degrees, engine went into shutdown at 200 degrees. And that's the way it is programmed. Mercury scanned the engine computer after the race. They are looking into the matter.

Before anyone makes smart remarks: A racer's reflex is to ignore all buzzers and warning lights, and to go as long as the engine is alive. Even if all the gauges go black, driver and throttleman will go on as long as the engine turns. Especially when you can practically touch the finish line.

I saw that race and Typhoon ran awesome. That boat accelerated hard down the back stretch and around turn 4 kept just walking away. When they shut down just before the finish line I thought maybe they just miscalculated the finish but then heard about the overheat problem. That boat ran awesome for it's first race and the conditions were pretty bad.

Some suggestions on the cooling problem. Do you know what kind of water pressure they are seeing? We had a problem with one where the water pickup on the nose cone wasn't passing enough water to keep water pressure up. We opened up the pickup a little more and haven't had the problem since.

Just a thought......

I know it's frustrating but it was a great showing for it's first race.

Ccarlos: I don't know, but all parameters before and after the incident are stored on the engine computer, and were read out by Mercury personell right after the race. The computer might shut you down, but it also keeps a record .....

I SAY TAKE THE **** OFF FOR GOOD,I CANT SEE
A TRUE RACE BOAT WITH A CLOSE COOLLING
SYSTEM.LET THE SALT WATER RUN THROUGH AND
NOT THE COOLANT,THE MORE PARTS ON THE MOTOR
THE MORE CHANCES OF FAILURE IN A RACE.ABOUT
THE APBA COMMENT ON THE KILL SWITCH,I DONT
BELIEVE THAT A BIT SPECIALLY WHEN THE RACE WAS
COMMING TO AN END

This is where the computer comes in: By reading out its memory, one can clearly show whether some dumb eff pulled the switch - as alleged in the press release - or whether the computer decided to shut down because the cooling got too hot.

Let's face it: Saying someone pulled the kill switch is the offshore racing equivalent of saying he's a blazing idiot. This has no place in an official press release.

Since Merc doesn't warranty the motor once is run in a race anyway, just disable limp mode. Let the racers decide if the win is worth the motor, not the computer.

The closed system allows the engine to get up to the proper temps. A cold engine just won't make the same power.

Closed cooling is the way to go as long as it's done the right way.

Mike: Could you expand some more on your 2nd statement?

Peconic, what I think Mike is saying is that those systems(borrowed from lesser engines) are operating at their absolute maximum peak design limits. There's no margin of safety.

All the HP-3 Vortecs are closed cooling system. I don't think any of the teams running the GM engines with the closed cooling had any overheating problems other than raw water pick up problems when they first came out.

Nick,

Unless he is saying that the ECU programming is the same for both the 500 and the 525 then I do not see the relevance. The cooling system is not borrowed, ECU is not borrowed, and a good portion of the Fuel Injection System is not borrowed.

This is the second time that MC has made this statement with nothing to back it up. I would like to know on what basis he is saying this and which components are the problem.

Besides, the GM engines has similar issues that were dealt with when they were first released. I don't see this as being any different.

I also do not see the wisdom in aluminum cylinder heads in salt water but hey, the warranty is pretty short anyway.

Sooo.....what your saying is, these engines are not for Havasu yet!

Re: BULLSH*T
 

Ahm, the conscience must have been sleeping: Mercury has dropped their sponsorship with the LLC quite a while ago. GMC happens to be the main sponsor. As much as I love conspiracy theories, this one is a bit weak.

I know of only one that had issues in Savannah. Do we know of more?

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaashut up all of you. so randy had a problem. one motor out of how many. i am sure merc will fix it. nobody else is having the problem.

Treadwell

are the heads raw aluminum? my KE/CANFIELDS came hardcoated. does edelbrock hardcoat:confused:

Mike,

As far as I know there was only the one 525 problem at Savannah (although there could have been others that have not been discussed as of yet). The cost to the owners (thus far) is some prize money and series points.

The engine did not grenade, it did not melt, it was not destroyed. It reached 200 degrees and the computer put it into limp mode. That safety feature may have cost the team the race but may also have saved the engine from potential damage.

This is the first failure seen in competition and as Treadwell said, Mercury needs to look at the issue before they can fix and I think that most everyone believes that they will fix it. At this point we don't know if it was due to the engine package, a hose pinched while rigging, or something as simple as a sock stuck in the raw water intake. You are making some very robust claims ("The HP525 is not near as reliable as the HP 500 carb or EFI and all of the racing world knows it." ) based upon a very isolated incident. I believe that there several similar occurances in F1 with the Vortec powerplants last year (water circulation problems leading to high temperatures and sending the computer into limp mode) but teams have been able to improve their packages to minimize the potential for these failures.

Again, I ask the technical question, what is the specific problem with the 525? You believe and some of your sources agree with you that what is the problem? If it is the cooling system, what is the problem? If it is the fuel injction system, what is the problem?

Let me address a few of these, since I was in Savannah last weekend.
First, there were a number of boats with 525's that did not finish. I can probably list them if you would like.
As for costs, Of course there is the prize money difference from first and second, (or worse for some), but what price can you put on points? A single overheat can cost you a National high points series Championship, &/or a World Championship. Talk about costs!
Your statement of similar occurrences with Vortec in Factory 1 last year is simply not possible since the GM Vortec powerplant was not allowed in the Factory classes by APBA until this year.

Gordo,

With respect to Savannah, I was not aware of any other HP 525 related failures that resulted in a team not finishing. What other failures were seen?

I agree, points are more often more valuable that equipment, especially when persuing a championship. That not withstanding, the discussion up to that point seemed to center on the cost of the engine and the lack of warranty.

And you are, of course, correct - I misspoke (or mistyped). What I should have siad was

"I believe that there several similar occurances in competition with the Vortec powerplants last year (water circulation problems leading to high temperatures and sending the computer into limp mode) but teams have been able to improve their packages to minimize the potential for these failures."

My example would be your own experience. You did not finish two races due to overheating and limp mode related issues with your Vortec powerplant. You (and others) learned from your experiences.

Learning... That is why we race in the first place. See you all in Mil, hopefully it all gets worked out by then.

Now we're closer to the same page.
You're right, we did have two overheats. Both times was due to the water hose from the Bravo drive to the transom plate. After the first time, Mercury told us to cut the hose shorter. When it happened the second time we tried a different approach and fixed it for good. Fortunately the GM Vortec went into failsafe mode both times, so there was no damage to the engine itself.
As for the warranty on the Mercury 525's, I hope Treadwell is correct and that Mercury takes care of Randy and the Typhoon boat. As you know, I have been pretty outspoken about the warranty, (or lack thereof) for the factory race teams, especially considering we paid the same as the average pleasure boater for our equipment and advertised Mercury all over the place.
I hope things are changing for the better, and Mercury steps up for Randy and his new motor.

Following your issues Gordo and comments made about the race engines ability to enter a limp or failsafe mode, Engineers from GM said that they had the ability to reprogram the ECU for competition engines - either raising the threshold or removing the failsafe completely. Was this ever done?

Also, it was my understanding that Randy's engine did enter failsafe - was there any engine damage due to the overheating?

Finally, has the cause of the overheating been established?

Gentlemen,
It sounds like the 525's overheating problem is an obstruction or rigging problem. Check your exhaust for proper restricters, And as for closed cooling systems, ask any good engine builder. An engine that runs at temperature is more efficient and makes horse power. And the shutdown mode just plain saves you $$$$

Typhoon update: Scan shows a low water pressure condition before shutdown. That would tie in with the obstruction theory. Somewhere in the (most likely raw) cooling water. Probably not in the exhaust. The pertinent parts are being inspected as we speak.

Mike,

No I do not work for Mercury but I do like their products. In my opinion they build some of the most reliable and trouble free powerplants available. It is true that you get what you pay for.

Regardless, we had a spare and I was looking for something different. Besides, the car is proving to be a tremendous test bed for modifications to the 500 EFI package. It is a lot easier to work on (in the car vs. in the boat) and changes can be tried one at a time.

By the way, where did you get the HP estimates for the 500 in my car? Is this another of your opinions supported by a couple of your friends? You should stop make assumptions based upon limited knowledge and seek out some facts.

I am pleased to hear that progress is being made with Mercury and the Typhoon problem. That is another benefit of the 525 EFI and the Motorola 555 ECU - true data logging. Hopefully all teams will benefit from what is learned this week.

Adivanman

By the way Mike - learn to spell.

No money to be made racing, however some race to win no matter what the cost. Some teams are out there to win the national title, if you look at the cost of their racing program trashing a $20K motor is nothing.

The teams should have the option of disabling limp mode. Since all teams budgets and goals are different why limit a teams ability to go out and win when a motor problem arises.

Not to open another can of worms but
"In fact I've always imagined offshore as a hobby that sucks up extraordinary amounts of disposable income."

Exactly why the sport will never achieve major success.

Can't we all just get along?


I admit I know (squat) about racing APBA, but I have a hard time thinking you can make any money/profit.

Unless maybe you could hire an ENRON accountant?

Wow! :eek: You miss a day or two and all hell breaks loose.

Anyway...Jim, I didn't say anything about the 500. I meant the technology was borrowed; from the 496 generation of motors: PCM555, cooling...Maybe not the injectors, not sure there.

I'm not trying to knock anyone here. It's a fact with any new product release, there will be problems and bugs to work out(Look at Ford's 6.0). I'm just acknowledging them. When I said in another thread that this isn't the first I've heard of this it's because there have been others. A good buddy of mine from the East coast is having all sorts of troubles with his pair of 525's-one complete failure(18hours) and the other one is on the fritz. There are still no conclusions. It's a fun waiting game. Poor bastard.
And Yes, he's also dealing with intermittent overheating.

Does anyone have any experience with the 525 not being able to go above 4200 rpms?? My buddies sonic will not. No knows whats wrong. Can anyone help?

Nick,
Good to see you back, missed you over the last couple of days. I know that you did not say anything negative except for your personal experiences, I was referring to your reference to ferver mike's comments. I also know that you understand product development and engineering and for that, I respect your observations and opinions.

I do have issues, however, with people who jump on isolated incidents to support their own view point or agenda. From the start I think that it is important to look at the issues with the 525's from an engineering standpoint - number of failures, types of failures, severity of failures, cause of failures.

Based on a single, non-catastrophic, non-internal, water flow related failure in Savannah I do not see a wholesale problem with the package. There are raw water cooling failures every day on the water. That the engine was closed cooling in this situation and had a limp mode vs. a seize mode is fortunate although obviously disappointing in competition.

Based upon the information that we have now there is nothing to support a problem with the 525 or drive. Nor does there have to be a problem with the package. Nor is there any obvious or constructive benefit to continue to point to the manufacturer as the cause of this (thus far) isolated incident.

If the problem was (raw) water pressure there are a host of possible causes, none of which have any relevance to APBA rules (where did that come from) and most of which have no relation to the engine or drive package.

If the problem was a design or development flaw, or inherent to the package, it would be a widespread issue and there should have been more than this single failure in Savannah. Why the ferver (mike) to blame this on Mercury?

Mike,

Gordo said that there were other boats with 525's that did not finish, he did not identify why they did not finish nor has anyone else in this thread said that there boat suffered a similar failure in Savannah. Given that almost 95% of the boats in F1 and F2 were Mercury powered (according to the APBA website) I would assume that all of the boats with DNF's were Mercury powered. That does not mean that they all overheated and went into limp mode. However, if in fact they did, then there is a problem. Can anyone elaborate on other F1 and F2 failures last weekend?

The majority of the other comments on HP525 failures, "recalls", and issues were presented by, umm, you mike. Based upon my quick search of the general discussion board, there was one other mention of a problem (although the nature of the problem was not identified) and there is Nick's friend. That would be two other problems noted on OSO besides your man on the street knowledge. My understanding is that the Lake X 525's never left the box so I don't think that they failed. Manufacturer's who could not get 525's do not reflect an failure issue either, thats a supply issue.

And for the record, I would be making these same comments if the same finger pointing was occuring with the GM Vortec powerplants, or anyone elses engines for that matter. My objections to your technical "opinions" would be no different.