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Proposal for Mike A.
Okay, Mr. A. Try this one on for size:
How about you put your plan together; I'll put my plan together; we'll both attach by-laws that implement the plan AFTER they have been reviewed by New York attorneys familiar with NY Not-for-Profit corporations law and have given a written opinion that, if enacted, the By-Laws would be valid under NY law and we submit BOTH, to the members via regular mail with a ballot and let them choose. Which ever plan gets the most votes, we then conduct an election for ALL Board members according to the terms of the ByLaws adopted by the members and that BOD will then run the APBA. Two requirements however: (1) if 100 (or more) members show up to the annual meeting and a majority (or two-thirds, as either way is cool with me) of them want to change the By Laws, there must be a provision in both sets of ByLaws that they can do this (NY law would allow this); (2) Both by laws must have a specific provision allowing the APBA to pursue any claims it might have against the LLC without any interference by you or your company. If you're right about not owing any money, obviously you'll convince the arbitrators of that so this shouldn't be a problem. Notice there is no requirement that you dismiss the lawsuit against me in Florida (cause I'm quite sure it's frivolous and that it'll terminate in my favor even if tried on the merits). Let's see if you're as confident about your position regarding your license. What do you say? 14-H |
Originally posted by yourconscience don't they have e-mail for this?? |
Email
Originally posted by yourconscience don't they have e-mail for this?? |
14-H:
What did the court decide? Is there some kind of delay? T2x |
Decision
Originally posted by T2x 14-H: What did the court decide? Is there some kind of delay? T2x |
Originally posted by Too Old Posting these things on a public forum seems insincere. Second, I'm curious why you all of a sudden popped out of the woodwork, relatively speaking, in such an audacious and fiesty manner. There must be over a dozen new threads attempting to discredit and mame the Offshore LLC and/or Mike A. in the last week or two Is it fear? Over-Confidence? A last-ditch effort to gain favor? Judge taking too long? What is it? To what honor do we owe your presence? After all, this is OffshoreOnly, and quite frankly, I don't get the impression that you really have good intentions for the welfare of the current OS LLC. That doesn't sit well with a great many of us, who happen to think it's a fine racing series. Proof is in the participation, it's in the venues, it's in the crowds that gather and the multitudes of media outlets covering the events, big sponsors, big race rivalries, and a undeniable growth in market share. Go to any search engine of your choice and Type in APBA. 9 out of 10 hits will be for the Offshore LLC. It's one of the APBA's most recognizable events along with Unlimited Hydroplane racing. Let's face it, Offshore was broke and losing favor quickly in the late 90's, Mike and his partners came in and fixed it beyond most expectations, now it's appealing again, isn't it? Not to mention the Merc rep. on the board...I'm sure he just loved it when GM got involved...what's his name, Hauenstein?(sp) By the way, Mike's plans are already done! They've been done. Where's yours??? Have a nice day. :) |
How about a duel? Several OSO members have beautiful weapons you could choose from.:D
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That is a duel. A three year long duel.
I don't like the idea of further fracturing the sport or the number of boats at the events. But if this is what it takes to stop the fighting, then I'm all for it. Let the best plan and execution thereof survive. |
settle it with pistols at high noon and get it over with for christ's sakes.
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A duel? Duel with boats. Race for it. Or forever shut up.
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PS: It might sound outlandish, but it ain't. I once came to a dead end when negotiating a larger deal in the corporate world. A tad larger thanthe pathetic amounts that are at stake here. Neither party wanted to budge. So my opponent said: "What do you want us to do? Flip for it?"
"Why not?" We flipped. I was lucky. Paid for several boats .... |
To be honest, Mike A's proposal is the only one I have seen that makes sense. Congratulations Mike.
The only "problem" I could see is the two parties going after the same race sites, that could get a little sticky. But he is right and has made a generous offer to agree without any further legal action to "share" the APBA Offshore designation so that they buyer can choose. Rick Max Q Racing P4-99 |
Originally posted by MrOffshore This is interesting, I see Mike A. has stepped up to the plate and offered what certainly seems fair...and now there is no reaction?? What's up with that? This is what I freaking hate about threads like this...someone posts something to cause an uproar...and then doesn't even follow his own thread...or else has been shutup with a response he certainly didn't expect. I don't have a problem with someone laying it out there on a public forum...hell, that's what they're here for if you really think about it. But when someone steps up like Mike A. has and then there is no response I pretty much lose all respect for the attacking party. Let's hear a response...it's been laid out there, so let's hear it! Oh...and if anyone really does the duel...count me out as a sideline spectator...I don't think I need a stray lead slug heading my way and the only thing I have to block my melon is a tub of popcorn! |
Originally posted by dockrocker Obviously, you've missed the fact that this sort of thing is of utmost importance to OSO members! Well, to 14-H and maybe 2 or 3 others.... :rolleyes: Please avoid these type threads if they anger or frustrate you. To some, maybe 2 or 3, or maybe 20 or 30, there is an interest. This is an offshore boating site and the topic is about the sport that lead to high performance boating that you enjoy on a recreational basis today. I simply cannot understand why the people who do not care about this topic read threads that are clearly designated to discuss this topic. Again, I am not being confrontational. I avoid threads that are not of interest to me. It is pretty simply...do not click on them. Geesh! |
Boat race. Neutral ground. Two boats. Two guys.
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Originally posted by Shane dockrocker, Please avoid these type threads if they anger or frustrate you. To some, maybe 2 or 3, or maybe 20 or 30, there is an interest. This is an offshore boating site and the topic is about the sport that lead to high performance boating that you enjoy on a recreational basis today. I simply cannot understand why the people who do not care about this topic read threads that are clearly designated to discuss this topic. Again, I am not being confrontational. I avoid threads that are not of interest to me. It is pretty simply...do not click on them. Geesh! Please, continue, this is really good stuff - not quite as entertaining as a catmando "George W. Bush is the reincarnation of Hitler" type thread, but lots of fun nonetheless. No offense intended, of course ;) |
Originally posted by Dredgeking settle it with pistols at high noon and get it over with for christ's sakes. 14-H: Back in the days when we really had duels, we had to build the pistols ourselves! And we made our own ammunition! Single-shot, muzzle-loading, those were REAL duels. T2x: And none of these modern, "rifled" barrels that cause all sorts of spooking patterns. Classic, traditional smooth bores only, that's the way. Mike A: But look at how popular the new, short barrel, chrome finished factory special automatic is. Lots of people love this new look. Fever Mike, et al: Yep, the new pistols and duel format are great - lots of excitement, lots of fans! T2x: Of course, if you want to really duel, you have to go hand to hand with knives - one in each hand. etc etc.... :D :D |
Originally posted by Baja Daze Let's face it, Offshore was broke and losing favor quickly in the late 90's, Mike and his partners came in and fixed it beyond most expectations, now it's appealing again, isn't it? Not to mention the Merc rep. on the board...I'm sure he just loved it when GM got involved...what's his name, Hauenstein?(sp) Actually Offshore was doing very well under Gene Whipp... It was growing and had tremendous popularity with the racers...and the rest of APBA..... Gene was a team builder with a vision that included rather than excluded...and there was no back biting or bickering of any note at that time. Gene had tremendous leadership ability and didn't make unilateral decisions, nor make calculated money or power grabs. To paint the sport at that time as some kind of a loser series that needed "salvation" is a disservice to Gene...and is simply not true. As far as Mercury and Fred Hauenstein are concerned.... They have been there for the racers for decades........ Yes, they made money.... They are not communists..... But, they also supported the sport...wrote off many equipment replacements that could have been charged as racing damage and not their responsibility... and used their marketing strength to assist all classes and products...including their competitors. There is a pattern here... a pattern that has resulted in public rebuttals by both APBA and Mercury Marine...and private ones by dozens of other companies and individuals involved with offshore racing and performance regarding the current situation. While I agree that you can't please everybody and you shouldn't try...... you also can't burn every bridge and destroy people whom you climb over on your journey...... What goes around.............. T2x P.S. I whole heartedly endorse Mike A's plan....as long as he gets the LLC out of the APBA. |
They would need to agree to run races on alternative dates, non of this stepping on each others events.
What's with the judge in NY? Hasn't he ruled yet? |
"T2x: Of course, if you want to really duel, you have to go hand to hand with knives - one in each hand. ".... originally posted by Dock Rocker
Nah....... around here the only knives you see are sticking out of your back. T2x |
Originally posted by Dredgeking settle it with pistols at high noon and get it over with for christ's sakes. T2x |
Originally posted by T2x P.S. I whole heartedly endorse Mike A's plan....as long as he gets the LLC out of the APBA. T2x;) |
The wisdom of Solomon may not apply...but there is certainly an element of prostitution floating around.
T2x |
Originally posted by T2x The wisdom of Solomon may not apply...but there is certainly an element of prostitution floating around. T2x |
So who's the wise King in this case? The court?
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I thought this to be relevant:
Originally posted by Mike A. on www.Hydroracer.net In 1996, Offshore was essentially bankrupt. Remember, the APBA leadership had taken Don Jones, who failed at running Unlimiteds, and shoved him into the Chair of the Offshore Racing Commission. There was no election and nothing democratic. In two years he bankrupted offshore and saddled APBA with debt. At the annual meeting in Detroit that year, things had gotten so bad and Offshore had become such a huge liability, that APBA and many members of the Offshore Racing Comission actually prepared a deal memorandum that would have simply given Offshore away. That is right. They had made an offer to give the offshore category away to USO and SBI, the two leading offshore groups of the day. The only reason that did not happen is because Steve David, Pepper Ernest, me, Bob Teague and a few other guys went to Gene Whipp and convinced him to assume the Chair. Steve then gave us the ok to fire Don Jones. Gene then killed the give away deal. But Offshore still was very much upside down, so APBA reached into its pockets and Gene reached into his pockets, paid off the debt and saved the offshore category from extinction. However, from a business standpoint, the offshore category was still a disaster, so Gene proceeded to work harder than he ever had in his life. He secured the help of many friends and personal business contacts to help him and offshore out of the mess it was in. Gene invested 10's of thousands of his own money to subsidize the category, pay prize money, produce limited television, and subsidize events. Indeed, when Gene assumed control in January of 1997 Offshore had only one race on its schedule and that was Sarasota. So Gene worked his tail off and saved Offshore. But he was completely burned out by midway through his second year. Things had improved drastically but SBI and USO still outdrew APBA in many venues and Gene still had to subsidize the category to keep it going. So much of the progress was a mirage in that once Gene decided to pull the plug, if a like minded philanthropist did not fill the void, Offshore would be right back to where it was in late 1996 - purely a liability to APBA. When Gene retired in 1998, APBA had a negative membership equity, which would have been even worse had Gene reported the offshore category debt it owed to him personally, on the APBA books, which he did not. You know what happened? A great many supporters of the sport practically forced the APBA leadership to allow me to become the Offshore Category Chairman at the end of 1998. I personally paid Gene back the approximately $80,000 the category owed him then put several hundred thousand dollars of my own money andtime to continue the subsidy of the category. Then, realizing that the sport could no longer operate that way - ie as a not-for-profit division of a not-for profit company - me and some other interested parties approached APBA about the License deal. We ultimately convinced APBA to allow the License deal and we have moved forward ever since. Now, how has the License deal helped APBA? Let me count the ways: 1. The LLC has assumed all of the debt and risk of loss which APBA used to have when it operated the category as part of its general operations. This meant that while we were financing the growth and new programs of Offshore with our money, APBA incurred no debt and no risk of incurring debt. 2. By assuming the risk of loss and debt, the LLC also allowed APBA to keep hundreds of thousands of membership, insurance, sanction, and mailing fees and put the money in the bank without risk of loss or incurring debt. THAT is how and why the APBA equity number went from negative to over $1,000,000.00 positive since 1998. 3. We have spent millions more promoting APBA and the brand. 4. We have brought a huge name sponsor in the form of GMC to the sport. Now suddenly, from Edward and the friends' perspective, I and the LLC had nothing to do with helping Offshore. Now suddenly, a legitimate business plan and investing millions of dollars to help APBA and the sport of offshore racing has become bad business. Now, suddenly, they know what is best for Offshore and should be given the opportunity to run it again. Open your eyes people: In 1996 Offshore was more than worthless. It was a liability. Today, after WE have assumed all of the risks, all of the debts, taken all of the chances and enriched the APBA coffers to over $1,000,000 in assets, these guys are trying to throw us out and steal our business. That is dirty, wrong and borderline criminal. So Ron, Edward, Sam, Mr. Brewster, if that is your idea of fairplay and honesty, then, we will not spend one more second trying to explain ourselves here. We will instead stay focused on building our business and giving other like-minded change oriented people an opportunity to better boat racing. We will continue to assert our rights in court and let the chips fall where they may but we are not going away. |
Another Interesting Point of View:
Different perspectives.
It would appear, from mostly random readings, that there are other boating associations who have suffered at the hands of the APBA/Merc machine. Some "cringe," while others fear "clusterf***s." One such group in particular is the ODBA. These guys from what I understand were also wronged by the 'friends.' This guy, 'Evin Rude' might just have it figured out: http://www.byuboyz.com/forums/showth...+Guards+antics There is a guy named Mike Alwiess that bought a lisence from APBA to run the offshore division. He calls it APBA Offshore LLC. Now he's runnin it completely separate from the APBA we know. He is runnin it in a for profit manner and doin purdy good. He got GMC signed on as a sponsor and a few other guys. It appears his boat count, rules and inspectors are also doing pretty good. I think that is where the **** comes in. We all know Mercury controls the old APBA 100% and they plan to keep it that way at all cost. Our guys found that out first hand. When you got the same guys runnin APBA that draw a 6 figure check from Merc, what does that tell you? We all know Merc dont like competition in any form. They work to crush competition either by out performing it (tha best way), out lawing it (chicken ****) or just using politics to control/get rid of it (really chicken ****). Now that goes for all forms of competition, both on and off the track. It looks like to me Merc got pissy when Allweiss got another sponsor (GMC) for his Offshore LLC that had more money than they did. The Merc/APBA brass (one in the same) started lawyering (excuse me for swearin) Allweis to get his ticket pulled so he couldnt run Offshore no more. To me, the APBA/Merc brass look like a 3 year old brat lyin in tha floor kickin, cryin and screamin throwin a tantrum cause somebody wont give em what they want. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!! On the other hand, Allweiss appears to be runnin some purdy well conducted and managed races and just takin care of business in spite of havin to battle with the pissers and moaners. Now I have been involved in runnin a race or two im my time. I aint sayin I done everything right, but I can tell you for sure, all *****ing is self serving. Meaning it is done to advance or improve an individuals (usually the *****er) own chances to win. *****ing (some call it constructive criticism....LOL) is never done to improve racin as a whole, only to benefit the *****er. Hard work is whats done to improve racin and from my experience, the *****ers will not lift a hand to do anything. They got the attitude that gracing you with their presence should be help enough. Seen it hundreds of times, over and over. Allweiss seems like the kind of guy that seen a need for improvement. He didnt ***** and whine, he just jumped in and got tha fukk after it. He got an agreement to lisence the management/running of the Offshore Division from APBA, took over and set off on a new path. He lined up GMC as a sponsor and started runnin big events, something the old APBA dudes never did. He pitched out a bunch of cheaters that were a bunch of APBA head office cronies. In short, it appears to me, Allweiss took a pile of **** (APBA's Offshore Division) and made something good out of it, something really nice too, and now that he did all the work, the old guard want it back!! I think the APBA Old Guards antics pissed Allweiss off so much, now he is thinking about doing the same for the kneel down guys he did for Offshore. Hell, he might even do the same for the drags! I wish Allweiss only the best!!!! I also wish I knew how to spell hiz name, but you get my point. I aint got a bone to pick with APBA or Merc, they are irrelavant to me. Dont give a **** one way or the other. On this deal though, they sure as hell look anti-bote racin to me. Just another guys' outside view looking in. This may or may not be of any interest to you, but what the hell... |
I don't think anyone could or would say anything bad about Gene Whipp. I think you just have two different thoughts of what direction this sport should go. You have the guys that like "real off-shore racing" vs the "closed course" racing. I think the true offshore racing was great, but not something that is sell able to the public. I know people will complain that most people won't watch boat racing, but there are a lot of us that enjoy watching any form of good competitive racing.
I think the only way to get off-shore racing to grow, is to have one man be in control. The first priority of a business is to stay in business. If it doesn't make money it won't stay in business. RumRunner PS I thought APBA lost there not for profit designation (like just about every other sanctioning body) |
14-H is very quite these days. Also, I thought he didn't speak for the board of APBA.
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Originally posted by Ron P 14-H is very quite these days. Also, I thought he didn't speak for the board of APBA. They even have an entire section called "14-H Vs Mike A." |
Baja,
Good post above from "Evin"... Well said... |
I posted on the Kneeldown web-site and thought you guys would like to see it.
quote from Mike A. The truth is that many of these people are flat out scared to say anything against the "friends" because if they do and I lose this battle, then they know they are up a creek without a paddle. Sad but true. So, we rely on phone calls and emails from the many who, while ducking for cover, are nevertheless urging us on and hoping we win so APBA can be free to grow again and prosper. Mike There is alot of truth to this quote! I have talked to many racers that feel this way but won't say anything because it is TABOO. I have only been boat racing for 3 yrs and love every minute of it and only want to see it grow. So far all I have seen is Mike A's plan and it seems reasonable to me. These are just some thoughts: Maybe we need a generous dictatorship. Bill France has done very well with NASCAR. He personally has made a ton of money from the racers and the racers have made a ton of money because of him ( racers don't get to vote on anything ) and none of the France kids race in NASCAR ( I'm sure they were to busy learning how to sell snowcones and stuff) It is not fair in my opnion that I did not get to vote because I did not go to Detroit. I had a choice between Detroit and a new propeller, I chose the prop. There is no all knowing sanctioning body that covers everything in any other type of racing. NASCAR-- ASA -- NHRA -- CART ---IRL --AMA --ECT. Heck, I wish we could be as big as AMA. I would sure like to know how our insurance works!! I feel that if there is any engine manufacture on the BOD than all of the other manufactures should have a spot also. I understand that I'm a small fish in a BIG pond and a new racer in a new class ( which is doing well and growing ) so please don't lambaste me too bad!! Regards Mike Fjeld |
Mike,
You make some very good points. Just take a look at all the sanctioning bodies that are successfull, they are not democracies. The SCCA is the closest think to a successfull democracy that exists, but it is still (for the most part) amatuer racing. NASCAR, IRL (sorry CART), World of Outlaws are all proving to be successful (in their own right) and all of them are governed by monarchy. Does not take a MENSA member to figure this one out. Although I have yet to run my first race (next weekend in Benecia), it is easy to see that Offshore is headed in the right direction. After racing cars for the better part of 20 years I switched to boats. The classes and rule changes while not in the short term best interest, are setting a foundation for competition over the long haul. Making the Pro classes competitive between manufacturers is what they should be about, both boat and engine manufacturers should compete. Setting up the Performance classes for guys like me to get involved with the "run what ya brung" type of rules is typically the foundation (backbone) of growth for the pro classes. I am not afraid to speak my mind as the only reason I purchased a race boat is because of the work of the LLC. In the end the consumers (racers and fans) will buy the best product and the LLC has the best product at this time under any name. Rick |
Hello again Mike F..
Hi Mike F..
Nice to see you over here also. When is your next race in central FlFlorida...Any chance of you guys (Mike races Supersports) showing up at St Pete/Tampa?? Take care:) :) |
Originally posted by WildThing By the way the racers would obviously be the King. They need to decide, it's their money and their race/sport. A leader is nothing if no one will follow him. -- "J. Mike Reed Jr." That is the most accurate statement in this whole thread. At the end of the day there will be no winner....... and there will be no conclusion........ simply an end to a chapter. If the sport needs continuous life support.....perhaps we should pull the plug and see what happens....... The racers will race regardless. If they are dependent on "benevolent" for profit corporations... something is very wrong. I was born with a B.S. Meter in my head.......... and have decided to turn it off because the warning buzzer has been ringing for a few years now ...and I'm getting a headache. You can power a boat with a Merc....... But, you can fuel a fleet of sailboats with the constantly revised "spin" on this issue . T2x |
Originally posted by seanclong You, my friend, have a scathing wit!! I like it!! :D Thank you...... I try in my little way. .....sigh! T2x........ obsoletely scathing |
From Evin Rude's post:
We all know Merc dont like competition in any form. They work to crush competition either by out performing it (tha best way), out lawing it (chicken ****) or just using politics to control/get rid of it (really chicken ****). Real racers us the first option and only the first option. They welcome competition because they know it will improve their own game. Trivia question - Name a piece of equipment currently used in offshore racing that is older than a #6 drive. See what I mean? |
Originally posted by C_Spray Trivia question - Name a piece of equipment currently used in offshore racing that is older than a #6 drive. See what I mean? |
Originally posted by C_Spray From Evin Rude's post: We all know Merc dont like competition in any form. They work to crush competition either by out performing it (tha best way), out lawing it (chicken ****) or just using politics to control/get rid of it (really chicken ****). Trivia question - Name a piece of equipment currently used in offshore racing that is older than a #6 drive. See what I mean? I've tried, and I'm afraid I don't......... see what you mean. The 6 drive was designed in the late 80's....redesigned (dry sumped/Skegs) in the mid 90's....... Somehow I am missing the point. Please explain....in terms even the "obsolete" can comprehend. T2x |
Let me ask a few questions.
Concerning the post by Mike Allweiss about diverging the License and Performance divisions. Since you signed a contract that guaranteed certain things, including payments of money and securing your insurance from APBA. You now do not pay anything to APBA and secure your insurance outside APBA, which has put the APBA program at risk. How would this 3 year experiment benifit all of APBA? Wouldn't this be exactly what you wanted? To not have to live up to the terms of your contract? By splitting APBA and taking with it some of the more marketable entities within APBA, wouldn't you be dooming the rest of APBA to failure? If I were in your shoes of course I would love that deal! Get something I contracted for and guaranteed payments for, for nothing. The dispute between Mike Allweiss and APBA seems to not be such a Offshore deal but a deal on who will ultimately control APBA. Why not stick to offshore? Think about it. If any of us headed a sanctioning body. Would we allow a licensee of ours to sanction an event we had already turned down for liability reasons? (PWC race in California). Would you allow a licensee to advertise and promote a race in a category that is under the wing of APBA not the LLC, and sanction it by another competing organization? Lets be fair here. One final question, I read where Mike Allweiss said he paid back Gene Whipp $80,000, and several hundred thousands of more to the category, out of his own pocket. Could you please supply proof of this? |
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