The Future of Poker Runs ???
 

Well folks ... the boating season is rounding third and heading for home so to speak ... here on Lake Erie anyway ... and as I look back on this past summer's poker runs I see a somewhat negative trend. Is the poker run as we know it experiencing a bit of a transition period ?

* First off, are there too many "events" around the country that the competition has "thinned the herd" and weakened the fleet that shows each weekend ?

* Are the organizers of poker runs being "worn out" trying to put together a "slew" of events every season instead of concentrating on one QUALITY event ?

* Are the organizers "slacking off" the details and planning of some runs because ... "the boats will come out anyway" or "I'm the only game in town" or "We had 80 boats last year" (resting on laurels?)

* Are the poker run participants getting "bored" with the same old thing every time they go to a run ?

* Are the participants getting pulled from too many sides for their entertainment/ leisure time and dollar ?

Maybe I'm wrong , but I've seen more "cancelled" runs and more "conflicting dates" over the last two years then ever before. If you could travel every weekend I think you'd be hard pressed to find a weekend that there wasn't at least two fairly large runs and often in relatively close locations. Further ... it seems every marina, yacht club and waterside eatery has to have their own poker run these days. And thats great ... more power to them ... but is the poker run becoming diluted ? Is the special feel wearing off ? Can the existing and upcoming powerboating communitee support all these events without loosing some of the "magic" ?

I'd like to see some changes to the typical poker run itinerary that would encourage closer running therefore limiting the "where is everybody?" ... boats all spread out by themselves thing .... (the best part is running along with a group of other boats)... I don't care who's there first ... I've been out front a "few" times ... the funs with the pack man !!!!!!!

Where do you see poker runs heading in the years to come ??? It used to be there were a handfull of events and man there was a buzz at 'em like the friggin Indy 500 ... Is that buzz still out there on every weekend at the "Second Annual Turtle Creek Reservoir Poker Run" ?
I don't know , there was even bad press from the Holy Grail of poker runs ... 1,000 Islands ????


... What do you folks think ?????

As with anything, the more you do it, the less exciting it is. If you go to fewer events and always different runs it will stay fresh and new, at least the location will be new.

People are making a living off of producing poker runs so you would think that the product would be constantly improving unless they get greedy and want to keep more of the profits.

Having only participated in one poker run (NYC this year) it seems like a poker run is a quasi race for those people who want the feel of an offshore race start without the need to run full speed for an hour. It seems to me that some of these poker runners need to try a race or two. The excitement never goes away and the compitition is what it's all about.

Tom Abrams has switched from poker runs with his boat TomCat to racing in Reliable. He found the compitition and adreniline rush that he's been looking for at offshore race sites.

From what I understand, the run to the first card stop can be fun, but after everyone gets spread out after picking up the first card, the fun is over and people just follow the leader for the rest of the day.

If I was going to do poker runs, I'd probably go to many different locations, especially in Florida.

I could be wrong about all this. I was wrong once before.

I don't think it will get watered down. It doesn't take the huge fleets to have a good time. The really big fleets make a logistical nightmare. I think as some of the really big ones start charging more and more to enter, it will bring around the birth of smaller, more affordable runs for those who can't justify the expense of the entry fee along with all the other associated costs of running in one.

I'll be watching this post closely. After getting our first poker run under our belt we are always looking for ways to improve next years.

Great info guys.

Brian

I can tell you from what I have seen entering and organizing poker runs for the last 14 or 15 years. The events are now so common that much of the hype surrounding them is long gone. Its a BTDT scenario for many of the competitors. I have seen many boaters come and go into and out of poker running over the years. It takes a great deal of effort and dedication to keep an event "fresh" every year. As a participant,thats what I want in a run,not just the same old same old route,food,prizes etc. As with any product or service,it had better get better with time or it will eventually wither and die. Sure the BillyBobs Marine annual poker run and pig roast type event will survive,but those smaller events are the grass roots, this is where poker running started type events that bring out a wholly different crowd than the heavily produced PRA type events. For fifty bucks and some gas a boater can have a great ole time boating with a bunch of like minded folks without nearly as much of the BiggusDickus syndrome that seems to have permeated the bigger poker runs over the years. Several of these "Poker Run" boats really belong on the race course IMHO,not doing poker runs. The level of entry fees has gotten rather high for many of these events and the appeal of the smaller less expensive runs is quite apparent. I have been to a few where 50 to 80 boats were entered. Maybe not all 47 foot this and that with 2000 hp and a half million dollar budget,but nice boats. These are people who want to enjoy the actual social aspect of poker runs as opposed to the ones who seem only to want to prove something. As a matter of fact,I will be participating in a small poker run this weekend . It is run by volunteers and all monies raised go to a children's wish charity. It is very popular year after year and has been running for 13 years now. Sure a few heavy hitters will be there,but I can attest to the fact that the ones who come to this particular run aren't there for the glory. They are there to play boating with friends and help a worthy cause.I myself only enter "charity" poker runs these days and what I would love to see but probably never will would be for the organizers of some of the big poker runs to hand over the profits to childrens charities. I am sure that PRA and the like make some pretty decent cash off these events. Yes I know its been taken to the point of being a profit generating business but ,and I ask rather tongue in cheek,why is that,after all,isn't boating supposed to be all about having fun?

At our Fun Run we re-group after each card, then everyone stays together. We also keep the entry fee down, but still have a great time with plenty of food and beverage. We make sure that it is for charity every year, and it seems to work. You know the old theory, KISS (keep it simple & stupid).

Anyone on the board who has been in our event knows how much fun we have, right AIRPACKER?

I pretty much agree with Airpacker. The first time I ever heard of a poker run was probably over 20 years ago. We were in Marathon in the Keys to go to a party held on an island by the locals. We didn't go on the poker run, but it was basically a bunch of fishing boats, riding from waterfront bar to waterfront bar, then having a party at the last one. They certainly weren't out to prove anything, just a bunch of buddies with the same interests getting together and having fun. That is pretty much what I look for in a poker run.

Seconded, Ron. Folks, if you want real excitement that just gets better every time, stop playing cards, start racing!

It doesn't have to be APBA or SBI. Find a nice regional club such as OPA in New Jersey.

It doesn't have to be a race boat. Augie Pensa races with his flying condo, complete with fridge and couch, and he won against World Champion Typhoon.

It doesn't have to fit strict criteria. Bracket racing sorts the boats into speed brackets, and off they go.

The competition, the fun, and the cameraderie can't be beat.

What did the old pinball machine say? It's more fun to compete.

At the other end of the spectrum is the Fun Run: No sign-up, no dues, nobody's responsible. A bunch of boats meet somewhere, go someplace, disperse. Or hang out for the rest of the day.

Some of these can get quite famous, for instance the Long Island Hot Toddie Run, held late Fall, hence the name.

Hey peconic,how u doin? Yes,the hottoddy run is a goody,any body have a date yet? Tripps

I have to go along with Cuda. I love watching the biggest and baddest of the bad, but reality is unless I hit the lottery, that's a world I'm just never going to get the chance to enter. However, I enjoy a poker run as much as anyone on the water. My boat is broken right now, so I'm going to be a landlocked card thrower outer for the OPBA's Long Labor Day Poker Run tomorrow. And while it won't be the same as being on the water, at least I get to feel like I'm involved. I agree that the "grass roots" poker runs are what ultimately will keep things going, or the demise. People can have just as much fun running 60-70 mph. Sure we'd all like to blasting along at 110 plus, but for the majority of us that just doesn't happen. At the same time, we all want to enjoy watching "the big boats" go flying by. Sooner or later we'll catch up with them, we'll just have to drink faster back at the bar.

When I went on my first poker run in 1992 I cost me $50.00 we had 20 boats that made 4 stops. We started in one place and finished in another. We all slept on our boats, and top prise was $300.00. And MAN was that a lot of fun! Now days you hafta fork over a minimum of 250.00 (I've paid as much as $1,000.00) Has to start and stop at the same place because god forbid if the trailer queens stay in the water overnite, let alone the "I'm not sleeping in my boat" guy's. And you can't make stops because who can accommodate 100 boats.
Yeah, it usta be a lot more fun.

The proliferation of big money, silicone psuedo raceboats at the big events...is spelling their own demise. These folks/trailer queens who's "recreational boating life" consists of nothing but poker runs...are missing the point entirely! It's turning off the "everyday enthusiast". I've run several of the bigger runs before, last one in '99 (1000 Islands) and was proud as a peacock to have a 2nd place hand out of 150 boats. It was zoo, banquet begins at 7pm, I am determined 2nd place at midnight! That's an 18 hour day..not including the drive home! Big entry fees, fuel, and other expenses of the day add up to the kind of money that could support my recreational boating for WEEKS. It's tough when you can't write off the expense somehow, or the business/company isn't bankrolling the weekend! In the last few years it is clearly (the bigger runs) a $ contest/show anymore amongst people who, for the most part, don't even use their boats "recreationally" at all! I want to go boating/poker running with people that have similar "recreational" boating interests and lifestyle. You know..."Joe middle/upper middle class" who is fotunate enough to squeeze out the $ for a performance boat, does his own maintenece for the most part, and isn't just going to beat the hell out of it all day....because he intends to go boating twice this week after work, and spend next weekend overnighting with the wife and/or kids!! :D Our club runs are 10X more fun than any big event! This is where it's at folks...;)

being in the boating business i don't have much free time in the summer.when i can sneak away for a day or two,i go to a poker run.i have been doing the PRA runs for nine years now,all around the northeast and CANADA.for the most part they are well thought out.there have been some glitchs from time to time such as US customs at last years 1000 isl run,and the fuel problem at this years 1000 isl run,but cosidering how much work must go into setting up events of this size i the that PRA has done a pretty good job overall.we are in the joe average group and only do these big runs with the help of sponsers.[JRECK SUBS]it is a real thrill to be able to run with the big boys.i think that starting the slower boats,like me,first,is the best way.then you get to watch all the fast boats pass you.if they start the fast boats first you never get to see them again until the next stop.there should be a restart at most of the stops to keep the boats a little closer together.i am also in two differant powerboat clubs in upstate N.Y. ROPA and the THOUSAND ISLANDS POWERBOAT CLUB.both of these clubs put on several events every summer.they are a lot of fun,and dont cost much more than a normal day of boating.these events are much more down to earth,and you can relax and talk to a lot of other joe average boaters like yourself.i like the big runs and the club runs.dont worry about who's making money or what mistakes were made.this is about having fun.

sterndrivespec...coming up for the "Die Hard Run" next weekend? Pres. says it's on rain or shine. I have a full bimini/enclosure with this Formula...so I'm into it regardless!

can't make it.we were all set to go on the 13th,but the change of date wont work for us.wish we could make it

The date change actually worked (a first) for me and Dianne as it's our weekend off. Sorry you can't make it, maybe see you at the winter meeting/party. Take it easy. :)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ron P
[B]As with anything, the more you do it, the less exciting it is.



I've been getting laid for about 25 years and it still excites me:D :D :D Gotta have one exception, right?

I think there's some truth to Ron P.'s quote even about getting laid! :eek: Unless she's new (used at our age) and different. :D The older I get..the more I want them all . :crazy: I'm hoping someone will put this thread back on topic shortly......

Offshore Racing is a great sport and being a fan for over 20yrs - I will tell anyone, watching an offshore race with 50+ boats is an awesome sight for any spectator (new or not new to the sport).

As for "stop playing cards, start racing" I think the numbers show differently.

The number of participants at almost any given poker run (excluding the BOG events) exceeds the boat count of any local/divisional offshore race.

Why?
* At a poker run, the captain is not limited to just a throttleman and or navigator. The captain can bring as many friends and family members that the boat can hold and be a part of the action. In racing, family and friends get to watch the action from the beach and not the boat.

* At a poker run, for your entry fee that would be equal to or less than an offshore race, all of the captain's family and friends get treated to not just the action but Breakfast, Lunch and or dinner as well.

* At a poker run, a performance boat "newbie" can sign up and enter and just cruise along to see if they like poker running. The only risk they have is their entry fee for the day. If the same person wanted to race, they would need to invest in jackets, helmets, additional safety lanyards, pay hundreds of dollars to register their equipment and crews, and also duct tape foam over all pertruding objects on the decks of their boats.

* At a poker run, the captain can choose to run their boat any way they want all day long. The can let it all hang out for the first leg, then kick back and cruise the next leg or cruise all day long. Along the way you can "race" other boats or just cluster together with other poker runners and cruise as a group. In racing, it is sticks to the firewall all the way until everyone else in your class breaks then you can cruise it home.

* At a poker run, you can be a winner and go home with a check and trophy no matter if you have a 18ft. Donzi worth $30,000 or a 42 Outerlimits worth $500,000. No matter how fast or how much "doe-ray-me" you have, anyone can be a winner. In racing, the fastest boat gets the check & trophy - thats why they call it racing.

* You can take a boat on the poker run circuit for 3 years and well maintained the boat will look like it did from day one. A race boat after 3 years on the circuit and a dozen or so big seas races is a prime candidate for the fiberglass repair man.

* In Poker Running, you can attend 1, 3 or 10+ poker runs a year and it does not matter. In racing, if you do not attend all 4, 5 or 8 races (div. or national) you have a limited chance of winning a national title because every race you miss, you earn zero points.

Poker Runs all across the country are run differently. From NJPPC, NPBA, FPC, PRA, SCOPE, to MAPRA and many others. All have plusses and minusses in the participant's eyes. Some are more like races, some are more like rallys.

Poker Runs have been and will be around for a long time. Are there more events today than 5 years ago? Absolutely. The events that focus on quality and not the almighty profit dollar are the ones that will survive. I have seen a huge difference in the quality of Poker Runs over the last 5 years.

I in no way shape or form am stating this becasue I do not like offshore racing. I already have my hotel booked for Key West this year. I am mearly pointing out why people choose to poker run instead of race. If I had the money to have 2 boats (1 for racing and 1 poker runs) I would do both. But right now, it is poker running for me.

As Usual, Whatever You don't Have, Is Bad
 

There are all kinds of runs from mostly pontoons (that look at a guy with a 20 year old 60mph sportboat and think he must be Bill Gates) to the Hudson Run. Purpose built boats are just that, PURPOSE BUILT ! I've spent 100's of nights on boats from 25' cuddy's to 54' Bertrams, sometimes it's great and sometimes it sucks, but I've been around long enough to know that boats that do everything don't do anything really well. The adrenaline and intensity that comes from running BIG boats at BIG speeds in BIG water with other similar boats is very difficult to explain if ya haven't done it, in addition, there's a whole lot more to doing it well than what you see when they go by. Believe me, you'd trade a lot of pleasant boating time for just 20 minutes of " in the zone time" when it all comes together. This kind of operation precludes all of the amenities that are on cruisers, the pleasure comes from knowing that the boat is not literally falling apart around you, and dreading the aftermath.
So we're back to the fact that "like" boats seek each other out, and at most runs there are only a few, how does that effect your fun? Remember Sportboats have gone full circle, they started out as stripped down, beat 'em to death hotrods because it worked. ;)
Don't buy into the " what do you call any guy with a faster boat than you ????????????? an a$$hole of course ! For the most part they are boaters who are lucky enough ( the harder I work the luckier I get ) to have more than one boat and choose to spend some of their boating time going real fast, is that bad thing ?

My opinion on the state of runs in general is that there are too many, I also lean toward "low profit" charity runs, and club get togethers are great. I personally would like to see some consolidation so that a handfull of regional runs drawing from a fairly large area could put together 60 -80 boats in areas where they have real offshore conditions. I've done runs from Michigan to Florida and have met some great people that I otherwise wouldn't have, getting outa your backyard can be very rewarding but it takes a ton of planning so if you have any concerns that it's not gonna happen, it's off the list.
Enough, I gotta take off my jewelry and put my wife, my ego and my three kids in the center console cause this trailer queen a$$hole's going TUBING !
:D :D :D

Nice jewelry !!!!!!

Didn't I just read a thread about the Philadelphia Poker run being cancelled by the Coast Guard on this board?

And your point is?

My first run and a few after that involved running to another port to spend the night one involved staying at the Detroit Casino (Hotel next door) and another at the Windsor Casino Hotel. We have also stayed at very basic Marinas. These were great runs with just a few boats and a huge winning pay off.
The club runs involved staying at the same port with a lot of boats and great party's with awesome people (except that one guy that always has a camera in his pocket):p
The point is we love them both they are two totally different types of atmospheres and they both have advantages and disadvantages but to us it is still boating and a chance to be on the water with friends.
This of course is all done with my multipurpose boat I hope that someday I can ride on a aggressive balls to the wall 100mph+ boat to experience the feeling;) ;) (hint ,hint)
I do agree there are too many runs planned and it seems to take away the excitement of the BIG RUN of the year feeling where everyone will attend! Too many choices seem to be thinning the crowd. I want to see the big boys on the same run that I'm on it is a blast to run with them and watch them go flying by and look at all the cool hardware that we all are so proud of.

Over the years I have had the opportunity to participate in my share of Poker Runs and I have a few thoughts to share.
The primary reason that I ever started doing them was to learn the ins and outs of south florida/keys boating with a group of like minded people. The fact that we could win anything never made it on the radar screen. The things that we have enjoyed are the camaraderie and pure joy of running with similar boats and crews and getting the chance to go from "here to there" together. (I think that there is safety in numbers).
The Poker Run as I know it I attribute to the days when Ralph Martin and company led his customer only Poker Run from Everglades Marina to Faro Blanco (Marathon) or the Lip-Ship Luau's that had nothing to do with poker and went from Miami to Key Largo. The point was a group of similar boats and like minded people got together and ran their boats someplace other than up and down the intercoastal from Shooter's (Ft. Lauderdale) to Monty's (Miami Beach)
we followed the leader and we watched out for one another and we all got there and back safely.
Yes, every event that I have had the chance to go on has had an opportunity to push ourselves and our equipment from time to time and that is just icing on the cake. But they all have stressed Safety first and the fun will follow. This also leads me to what I percieve as the greatest threat to this great social outing. Too many a time I have had to pull up or idle while someone has passed or ignored the pace/lead boat. Creating often times dangerous, hazardous or illegal and risky navigation issues. The threat lies with the boaters that participate in the Poker Run Theme of things but then choose to ignore the dockside and seamanship rules of the Poker Runs themselves. it only takes one incident and because of the High Profile nature of the events the ability of the organizers to schedule, insure and plan the next event is placed in jeopardy.
I'm all for variety and then we each can each plan the events that fit our schedules and boating desires. But the thoughtless few that choose to ignore the "rules of the road" without thought of censure or penalty I think are the real danger to the future of the Poker Run as we know it.
Best.
Rice Hauler

well put "rice hauler"!

I too sometimes wonder if the insurance companies are not gonna one day step in and say"If your in a poker run you are to do so at your own risk"The poker runs will be reason for exclusion or cancellation.As Rice Hauler said, Some individuals will put many at risk to get to the front of the pack at the start.I will never ever start off at the front unless you can stay there,the water in the middle of the pack in a cat can be a drivers worse nightmare.I know some will say you should be able to stay up front in a cat (NOT).Very narrow ICW`s and 38 to 45 v`s trying to run along side the pace boat sends a white knuckled chop that cats are at the mercy of the water unless I can get up and out.Dont get me wrong I luv the rush,but I`m afraid ins. co`s. are gonna soon exclude this event from your coverage.They might go so far as to give you a speed at which you are not to surpass while doing a poker run,to take away the race feature.For what I pay I should think that wont happen.After all it`s "NOT A RACE"..........RIGHT!

Any other thoughts ???

Future of Poker Runs
 

I am still gathering my thoughts on this very important subject,,

Soon I will spew forth with unintelligent information on this thead ,,, that will virtually affect no one ..

Unless I ask Steff!!!

RHC

Poker Runs and Racing
 

I love both Poker Runs and Races. I have seen a drop in boats not only in Poker Runs but racing to. (Maybe it has to do with the rise of gas prices,money?)

I first started like anyone else helping out at the boat races, Patrol boat, Medic boat anything that would get me involved.

Then I was intoduced to Poker Runs, The first one I did was the Atlantic City Poker Run (NJPPC) and met some great friends (I WAS HOOKED)

I traveled around the East Coast with my boat Canada, Maryland, Kentucky, Florida, NJ and NY and enjoyed every minute of them.

I wouldn't race because I would not want to kill my boat, my wallet or have to race every race. There are times that I will pass on a Poker Run so I know I would not want to be obligated to race!

Oh I forgot!
 

Freinds like this are priceless!

classic frank! :eureka:

Great Thread topic LEOPAJM!

I just dont like when 2 Poker Runs are on the same day, in close to the same area. I remember last year 2 runs on the same day bumping into each other at Kellys Island (I think it was Offshore Alley and Coastal maybe). It narrows the field, because you have to choose one over the other obviously.

I'm glad to read that Ralph Martin made this thread. He was the father of the Poker Run. He started it all for his customers to have fun with there boats and family. The after the run partys were the best. The games and awards were funny. The poker hand night the $$$$$$ would really climb for that best hand. Fun times. cb

Poker Run ==Fun
 

After some thought, supplemented with my Uncle Jacque Daniela here goes::

There are two types of Poker Runs. The first would be the local Club Run, produced by the clubs volunteers with the thought of Having Fun, making friends and playing with the boats,, these events started out being a lot of fun, however more and more we see them turning into faster boats and less and less comaradrie,, The price is normally on the low end and some lucky person walks with 1K to 2K in prize bucks,,, I personelly like the new trend of winner take all,, that way some one might win 3-4K and he/she is very happy,,, and everyone else knows that it could have been them.

The 2nd type is the Larger,, Permoter Run, with the bottem line being driven by profits,, sometimes under the guyize of Charity ,,, these events draw more Boats ,,, the see and be seen Guys,,, usually pay more prize money and cost a lot more to enter and travel too.

We do about 10 Runs a year and this year had a much better time at the fun runs with people that have a commen intrest in being in the boat, talking at the docks and running in a group, rather than trying to be first at the next stop...

In six to seven yrs of Poker Runs I have not seen any Wrecks or damage done by the Particpents (some close calls ) but for the most part People are carefull ...

I think the big runs will lose numbers (entrants) if they dont change the format. and with that drop off people will run with the smaller local runs ,,,

I dont mind travleing to new sites ,, I just like getting Value for my entry fee when its over..

RHC

Some thoughts from the middle-class-trying-to-save-for-kids-college person...

I run the NY Poker run every year. Why only that one and not the NJPPC runs who are the greatest bunch of people around? I CAN'T AFFORD MORE THAN ONE. There I said it. Mind you I'm no pauper with a waterfront home and all, but I do have a limited budget (ok so cry me a river with a 30' offshore boat). Besides, it's closer to me and it has the biggest spectacle factor. I have to do all my own wrenching to keep it affordable. I would love a fun run here at the Jersey shore, just once in a while.

I am GREATLY disappointed that the NJPPC can't do the radar shootout anymore. That was great, buzz down to the barnegat, hang out for a while and see the spectacle, and then buzz home, just the cost of gas.

How come there are not more fun runs put together by clubs and other organizations? You can ask why don't I try, but I simply don't have the meet the mayor quality of DaveP and his ability to organize (my hats off there). Billy Frenz puts on a great show, but that's a business for him.

I'm not saying do more or less Poker Runs... what I am saying is why not sprinkle a couple fun-runs or simple raft-ups into the mix?

It looks to me like there might be a need for two types of poker runs: The FUN run and the HOT run.
I enjoy both. We live where it is very difficult to attend ANY runs, so if you are overbooked with runs, consider yourself fortunate!
However, if there will be one thing that will KILL ALL POKER RUNS, it will be the IDIOTS cruising around on plane and at higher speeds with chicks (or anyone for that matter, just seems to be chicks the most) laying on their sunpads. Every time I see a picture like that, it makes me think that poker run days are limited.:rolleyes:


Case in point:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Thank you very much for the kind words. They are GREATLY appreciated!

As for fun runs - the reason why there are not alot of ORGANIZED FUN RUNS is because of LIABILITY. #1 Reason. Plus if they are organized, they need to be insured (unless the organizing person or club wants to get raked over the coals if something happens). So, if you have an organized fun run, who is going to pay the $2,000 for insurance? 10 boats = $200 per boat just for insurance...that is nuts.

What happens on the Barnegat Bay is "informal fun runs" organized by NJPPC members on their own. NJPPC is NOT responsible for organizing, informing or planning for members. That aleviates the NJPPC responsibility. How do the people get to know each other? Doing NJPPC Poker Runs. People get to know each other on the runs and exchange phone numbers & email. Doing te events is the only way people get to meet each other. Other than our winter party in February.

So as for a solution to you question? Not sure?
But hopefully that gives some insight from a club's point of view.

Shooter very well put. I am much in the same boat lately. I am forunate enough to have many great things in life as well, waterfront home, Skater and Formula, etc etc etc. But I too am limited financially due to the costs of maintaining two homes. I totally understand how you feel because I feel the same way. Maybe we can form a "support group".:p I am a NJPPC member. I could not agree MORE with what you said about DaveP. I wish I had half the endearing qualities of Dave. He has an uncanny ability to get his point across and even if you disagree with him you still love the guy. That is a trait only a selct few are born with, and I am surely NOT one of them!:( I have met some GREAT people via NJPPC and I would not trade that for anything. Although the NYC run is a spectacle, unfortunately I don't think the value received for participation is as high as an NJPPC event. Don't get me wrong, I really like Billy Frenz and the NYC run is one of the finest runs around bar none. I also realize he has HUGE insurance and overhead for his event and he has to make something, this is his business. Unfortuantely, $500 just for entry plus all ancillary expenses is bit high for my budgetary constraints right now as well. I have done the run in the past and hope to be able to do it again in the near future. Just right now, the budgetary belt has had to be tightened a notch or two and I had to take one of the more expensive events off the participation roster. So we will just run along at the tail of the pack and watch until we have a little better free cash flow. My wife has gone back to school for yet ANOTHER degree that will take 2 years and that has decreased our monetary inflow and increased the outflow! Yes I know that is the wrong direction!:rolleyes: But sometimes you have to go back a few steps to go forward.