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Some truth in the electric turbo Saga

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Old 11-13-2003, 07:28 PM
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Default Some truth in the electric turbo Saga

obviously these guys are not talking Boat blowers

European auto makers are encouraging Visteon Corp. to develop an electrically powered supercharging system that will improve performance of small engines. The supercharger is needed because internal combustion engine/electric hybrids — and the 42-volt systems that will power them — for the most part remain just out of reach.

Visteon engineers are working with customers on engine projects for 2005-2006 that will use the Visteon Torque Enhancement System, or VTES, with a 12/14-volt electrical system.

It would be easy to adapt the VTES system to a 36/42-volt system, says Visteon engineer Jeff Brown, but the costs and complexity of such systems mean manufacturers are sticking with 12/14-volt systems longer than was thought a few years ago.

And they are looking for ways to improve fuel efficiency to meet the coming 2008 European goal of 140 grams of CO2 per km, the equivalent of about 41 mpg (5.7L/100 km).

Visteon views VTES as a transitional system between today's engines and future gas or diesel/electric hybrid systems, but it predicts that hybrids will have less than 5% of the market in 2010.

The VTES system, as with a turbocharger, generates greater power by forcing more air into the combustion chamber. Traditionally, turbocharging has been the favored approach. But the problem is the annoying “turbo lag” that is inevitable, because the turbo compressor is powered by the exhaust gases.

In the VTES system, the compressor is powered by a brushless electric motor that turns an aluminum alloy compressor at 50,000 rpm — just 330 milliseconds after the driver demands acceleration.

Visteon has a dozen patents on aspects of its supercharger system, which has been in development for three years.

“We have patents on the motor, the application, electrical system management and the central interface, among others,” says a Visteon spokesman.

“The motor-compressor is about 30% of it, but integration is the difficult part. The competition might have a motor but not the integration.”

The motor requires 2kW of electric power in operation, so Visteon needs to manage the vehicle's entire electric network in order to stay within the limits of a 12/14-volt system.

Among other things, engineers packaged the battery next to the motor to reduce losses in the wiring and regulate output of the intelligent alternator. Boost pressure is 5.1 to 5.8 psi (0.35 to 0.4 bar), depending on the application.

To demonstrate the system, Visteon installed VTES in a naturally aspirated 1.2L Fiat Auto SpA engine and a 1.9L Renault SA turbodiesel. In the diesel, the airflow from the VTES is directed through the turbocharger, boosting the intake pressure faster than the turbo alone.

Ultimately, auto makers are interested in reducing the size of their engines if they can get the same performance, because fuel consumption will be lower. Reducing performance is not a marketable option.

Potential benefits are greatest in small- displacement engines. Brown says applications are impractical on engines larger than a 3L turbodiesel or a 2.3L naturally aspirated engine, because larger engines require more air than a 12-volt supercharger can deliver.

Thus, Visteon developed its program with Europe in mind, where engines are smaller than in the U.S. Most European car buyers express interest in enhancing performance, rather than downsizing, says Visteon, and there is more interest in enhancing turbodiesel engines than in boosting gasoline engines.

In a 1.9L diesel, torque is increased about 10% for engine speeds from 1,000 to 2,500 rpm, but there is some benefit even at top speed.

More dramatic results are possible with small gasoline engines. A 1.2L engine with the VTES system performs nearly as well as a 1.8L without VTES, yet fuel economy is 27% better.

Compared to a 1.2L engine without VTES, the more powerful VTES engine's fuel economy is unchanged at 39 mpg (6L/100 km).

“In everyday driving, you use only 30% of the torque available in your engine 90% of the time,” says Brown. “You pay a large penalty in fuel economy to have the extra power available that you rarely use.”

Compared to the 1.8L engine, drivers using a 1.2L VTES would save about $1,500 in fuel cost over 36,000 miles (58,000 km), with typical European fuel prices.

http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_vis...tric/index.htm

http://www.turbodyne.com/product2.html

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Old 11-13-2003, 07:54 PM
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VTES? Is that electric VTEC?
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Old 11-13-2003, 07:54 PM
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O.K. I only have one question???? Where are they getting the 2000 watts of power to work the motor??? I mean, you can pull 200 amps from a battery to run it for a short time like a starter. Buuuuttttttt, then you have to expend energy (and fuel) to recharge the battery so this thing can work again. You can't beat physics, if you use power it must be replensihed and that will take energy (fuel). Unless of course they use solar panels so you can't accelerate on cloudy days or at night
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Old 11-13-2003, 08:10 PM
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http://www.turbodyne.com/


electric assisted turbocharger is the best solution
electric is used just to get rid of turbo lag and to slow the turbo when the pressure/RPM gets too high acting as a high current generator. this is what I been hearing is the future of turbos the computer can control the RPMs of the turbo.

I guess the idea is to get more horsepower out of those
small engines.

this stuff wont be much use for boats
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Old 11-13-2003, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by insptech
O.K. I only have one question???? Where are they getting the 2000 watts of power to work the motor??? I mean, you can pull 200 amps from a battery to run it for a short time like a starter. Buuuuttttttt, then you have to expend energy (and fuel) to recharge the battery so this thing can work again. You can't beat physics, if you use power it must be replensihed and that will take energy (fuel). Unless of course they use solar panels so you can't accelerate on cloudy days or at night

http://www.turbodyne.com/product2.html
Note that 1kW of electrical power applied to the DynachargerTM shaft potentially results in a 4kW increase in engine power.
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Old 11-13-2003, 10:34 PM
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Patents aside, a 2kw motor is gonna weigh 30 pounds. The accompanying oversized alternator required to keep the energy stored to use it will weigh 10 pounds more than a normal one.

And all this to circumvent turbo lag? Good luck to them.

I've driven a few late model turbo cars, and the majority of them have negligible turbo lag, especially the low boost ones (equivalent to the boost levels being touted in the above article). Ceramic turbines, watercooled turbo bearings (which allow much smaller bearing sizes), and optimized exhaust gas management and wastegating allow quick spool up and have no real downside. And we all know that a turbo motor at cruise is no more fuel hungry than its non turbo counterpart (assuming the compression ratio is the same on them both).

Electric ASSIST is something that I think holds more promise for the near future. Integrating the flywheel into a starter/alternator/boost motor is more feasible.

Battery power energizes the coils and makes the flywheel spin to start the motor. Once started, the electric field is tapped to recharge the storage batteries (until charged, when the field voltage is minimized and power robbing drag is eliminated). Under acceleration, the field reverses back to "start" polarity and the electric field "helps" accelerate the motor. The weightof the flywheel was already there, and the new flywheel with magnets in it weighs no more. Clean, easy, and no stupid electric blower...
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Old 11-13-2003, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mcollinstn
Patents aside, a 2kw motor is gonna weigh 30 pounds. The accompanying oversized alternator required to keep the energy stored to use it will weigh 10 pounds more than a normal one.

OH you wont need a bigger alternator, the eletric motor also generates power when slowing down the turbo
and with Brushless DC motor's sizes would'nt be more then 10-18 lbs depending on the type of magnets

And all this to circumvent turbo lag? Good luck to them.

I've driven a few late model turbo cars, and the majority of them have negligible turbo lag, especially the low boost ones (equivalent to the boost levels being touted in the above article). Ceramic turbines, watercooled turbo bearings (which allow much smaller bearing sizes), and optimized exhaust gas management and wastegating allow quick spool up and have no real downside. And we all know that a turbo motor at cruise is no more fuel hungry than its non turbo counterpart (assuming the compression ratio is the same on them both).

Electric ASSIST is something that I think holds more promise for the near future. Integrating the flywheel into a starter/alternator/boost motor is more feasible.

Battery power energizes the coils and makes the flywheel spin to start the motor. Once started, the electric field is tapped to recharge the storage batteries (until charged, when the field voltage is minimized and power robbing drag is eliminated). Under acceleration, the field reverses back to "start" polarity and the electric field "helps" accelerate the motor. The weightof the flywheel was already there, and the new flywheel with magnets in it weighs no more. Clean, easy, and no stupid electric blower...
Sounds like the Hybrid electric car thats already out
http://www.turbodyne.com/product2.html
regenerative braking and electric motor similar to the one you describe, good Idea for Cars

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Old 11-13-2003, 10:49 PM
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That's a far cry from a bildge blower!!!!!
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Old 11-14-2003, 02:16 AM
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Quote:
That's a far cry from a bildge blower!!!!!
Certainly true, but as far as the electric assist turbos....Audi used them as far back as '88 (If i remember correctly) on their Quattro rally cars....to eliminate turbo lag. ..Used them at pikes peak hill climb.....worked very well.
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Old 11-17-2003, 08:51 AM
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Schwitzer has turbo's that had no turbo lag actually could dial in boost wereever it was needed.
 
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