Kaama/Arneson??
 

This has bothering me for some time:confused: Maybe some one can set me straight.
Kaama and Arneson drives seem very simple and straight forward. Why have they not caused the demise of the standard outdrive such as Alphas or Bravos(other than the fact Kaamas are already gone).

Mopower, this is an endless question. I suggest you look up some other threads like "arneson on V-bottoms" where this issue has been debated at great length. I will just say that it's a cultural thing. Outdrives are embedded within the popular powerboating culture and while they are not (anymore) the best transmission option, habits take a long time to change. Why? For one, the practices or malpractices of a dominant manufacturer which has such market presence that it has the ability to impose itself as the only choice (this covers service and parts availability, availability of labor which is skilled with that type of transmission...) In other words, Mercury is keeping a tight grip on the market and even though there are better options, outdrives still have the largest market share. And people buy what they see around them so... Secondly, surface drives would require manufacturers to rethink their bottoms slightly and the cost of retooling is something they are not always willing to invest in. They are used to sterndrives, they are still selling boats with sterndrives so why fix it if it ain't broken, right? Which is kinda sad for a community which is supposed to be gear and tecnology-oriented, but there you have it. But this continuous quest for performance already calls for a greater consideration of surface drives. They are faster and more reliable and with engines pumping out more power and torque than ever and with boats going faster than ever, people are starting to take a serious look at them. Can't stop progress. Just my opinion...

Same reason some of us still put Film in the Camera!!!!

I know what you mean:D :D But in some cases it's an advantage.


Super,
Since there are a number of O/D manufactures , I was wondering why Merc (who has a tight reign on things)never explored this avenue themselves and painted them black. Of course theres always the relacement part market for what they already build. After all if they made them too simple or reliable the replacement part market wouldn't be there for them
:( .

Mopower, good question! I guess Merc do what they do, they are tooled up and have the expertise to build outdrives and they do it pretty darn well within the limits of that concept. They really have the technological edge in sterndrives and going into the surface drive market would expose them to competitors which are much more powerful than the Bravo Shop, Teague or IMCO. No disrespect meant but no comparison either with surface drive merchants like ZF or Twin Disc. They would expose themselves to a very probable scenario where they would lose some of their drive business and sell much more "bobtail" engines to be mated to a competitor's surface drive. Merc don't want that, they want to sell more "packages" by sticking to their "core competences". It's a fairly common market situation: when smaller players are reduced to marginal roles or weeded out completely, big enterprises collude and segment the market so that everyone has a niche and keeps out of others' affairs. And this is what seems to be taking place in the transmissions market. If Merc tried to make surface drives, it would be a situation of all-out competition and then I would not be surprised to see say Twin Disc make a sterndrive and I bet they could make a pretty good one. And that would be bad news for Merc.

Hmmmm:confused: , could be. Leave everyone keep their own little niche.

I agree with ST. Merc has the builders by the short hairs.

I agree surface drive are the ultimate. I would have a set in a second.

I think Merc gears toward the major market though because they are a bit more user friendly than surface drive setups.

Surface drives require more respect when handling the boat in different situations. Most boaters on any waterway haven't even heard of surface drives.

I also think there has to be a specific reason why Merc hasn't tapped the market. They dominate their sterndrive market, endless money, and have deep R&D resouces. They could market it with ease.

I would love to know why. I'm sure they could give me an answer though.

Yep, handling is another issue. Most people have had sterndrives for their whole life and they are comfortable with them. They do not necessarily want to learn new tricks associated with surface drives. As for Merc, I really think that they are trying to stick to their core business, to stuff they're good at, rather than face very able and powerful competitors in the surface drive market. And it's understandable because Mercury make a pretty good product. If you've assimilated the powerboating culture, ie. if you flush your engines, think about saving your drives during starts and in the rough, pull the boat out of the water every time... something like the HP525 plus Bravo XR is a very fun package to have. And you don't want to ruin a good thing so there they are, doing what they do...

I would have to say that merc did try to get into the surface drive market but hardly anyone would order it. Remember the Blackhawk? It was a trim-able surface piercing dual prop drive. I thought it was a neat idea. Kind of a cross between a Bravo and an Arneson. But it did not last very long and only a couple of manufacturers offered them on their boats. The only thing about the Blackhawk was that it was not as reliable and simple in design as an Arneson. It had to many gears and internal parts like a normal out-drive. But a good effort by Mercruiser non the less.

I am trying hard not to remember Blackhawk. It didn't last long because it was a total disaster. My father was suckered into trying those things out on a boat. More importantly, it was very far from being a surface drive at all. In my opinion, same as Bravo just not as good. Didn't they try to make a 2-speed gearbox with that too? That went down the toilet pretty fast too. At that time, Fabio Buzzi already had designed a proper 2-speed trannie for ZF and it was in testing stages...

Maybe I should have elaborated, it was Mercruiser's Attempt at a surface piercing drive. About the two speed tranny, I never heard of one with a tranny gearbox but maybe someone else on here might know something about it. I know a few people on here have those special edition Donzie 22 classic with the blackhawk drive, maybe they can tell us about them?

Mercury Marine is in business to make money. If they thought they could pay for the R&D to put a surface drive on the market, and it would sell enough units, they would. Remember, only a minute percentage of people that buy boats with outdrives know about Arneson or Kaamas. When it comes to the real numbers, not that many people are interested. Mercury sells to the masses. The Blackhawk was a very cautious approach. Most of the drive was existing tooling and equipment, not much of an investment. If there were tens of thousands of people buying Arnesons, you would see a surface drive coming out of Wisconsin faster than you could imagine.

I have not driven a boat with Arnesons, but I did use my uncles Formula with Kaamas. I thought they were very user friendly, even at low speeds. You have to pay attention, is that so bad? The boat was a riot. Faster than an equal boat with TRS's, they were absolutely trouble free, and the roostertail was awesome. If I could make the decision between the Arneson and the Bravo without it breaking the bank, I would give the surface drive a try.

I'm a newcomer to this site. My experience comes from working for Kaama in the mid 80s.

Back then, their surface piercing market was a small inch. Buying a new Scarab or Formula was like buying a Mustang today, Do you want to spend $XX.XX on a SVT Cobra or cough up even more cash and kick down for a Saleen version or the same car. The Saleen sounds cool but the Cobra will be plenty fast enough for me.

Kaama power systems were an expensive option to an expensive boat. Surface piercing was obviously a faster, (theroetlcy) more reliable drive. But as mentioned above Merc had the name, warranty, money, and clout behind them to dominate the market.

FYI: The KAAMA racing team was racing and winning championships using Mercs long before the development of their outdrive. Mercury owned the market.

I have not seriously kept up with the industry for a while. Its nice to see that SP drives are still cool and "different" 20 years later.

I 'm re-building a 26ft Wellcraft ('81) that was one of ten (I was told by W/CFT) built that year. The Mtr was a 350 /260hp pleasurecraft ,a Velvet drive 1.5 V-crive and a Magnesium #6 Arneson . The boat had 20gal. water system shag head liner frig,porta potty etc. I filled up a small dumpster with all the crap I striped out. The mtr. hatches weighed close to 100lbs. Teak floor panels,teak trim, teak hatch ,on &on. I dont know how this set-up had any performance at all. I'm hoping that 800 to 1000lbs. lighter and close to 350hp to start that I'll have a good starting point.Anyone have an idea where I'll be starting off?? THe rig weighed 4000lbs with the new mtr. ('03/350 roller,vortec ,air gap ,demon, MSD,port work stainless exhaust. The rest ,seats wires gauges fuel is going to be 1000lbs. min. What was ment by "the hull designed for surface drive" ?? I looked thru some POWERBOAT MAGS from the early 80's and they were winning BOAT of the year on a regular basis. So a 24 degree non step ,non pad hull would seem to be similar to a number of todays hulls. Thanks in advance for any info out there Andrewmasonsr

Hey Kaamapart,
I have Kaamas on my cat and love them.However I am having a problem.I am changing the ratio and am having a problem.I got onr done without any incident.The other one I cannot get seperated.It looks as if it hanging up.Any suggestions.You can call me at 678-522-4873 or drop me an email at [email protected] or respond on the board.
Thanks Mark

Mark,
As you can see from the one you did already separated, It's pretty much a straight slide on. I would suggest taking a plastic dead blow hammer to loosen the back casing. Be careful of the fins though. It could be just that the studs are lining up close enough. I personally did not assemble or repair the drives. As mentioned able, Craig Archer Marine (former KAAMA rigger) is the best place to get some info. There is also Chris Brown Performance Marine(Former KAAMA Mechanic) in Costa Mesa, CA as well. It's been a while and I don't have either phone number.

Good Luck