My step bottom Gun runs great in rough water. Sean has run my boat, so he could probably answer any questions.

I have been over this more times than I can remember on here. There are some people that just hate step bottom boats for some reason (some probably have not ridden in one).

I have had my boat in 8-10's, and although I was a little sore the next day the boat handled it very well. The only damaged sustained to the boat was both bilge pumps were snapped off.

My boat runs over 80 with stock 500 efi's. Another non-step Gun that runs out here runs the same speed with Procharged 500's. I love my boat.

Steps Work!!!

I Don't Hate Steps.
 

It's not the steps, it's the manufacturers claims that I hate. As soon as somebody says " it's stepped" all common sense seems to go out the window! Well I for one live and die by FACTS not brochure BS. People who should know better find themselves with brand new underperforming boats and a builder making excuses time and time again. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS MAGIC, GET IT? To imply that a 38 - 40' V bottom with small power ( under 575 hp ?) rigged for real world use ( ie the junk we all carry) propped for real world use, and carrying more than 50 gal of gas is gonna run 100mph is just silly......even if it does have a cool logo:D

I agree with that. Even My cat, which would run close to 110, would only run in the 95-100 range with a reasonable load of fuel, people, gear ect...

There are some people on here though that have made comments that steps do not work. That they are simply a gimmick to sell boats. Well I don't agree.

I hate BS so I agree. Like they say...show me. Put fuel, put stuff put the props that it run with and lets go. cb

Are you standing behind John's boat for the 100mph with 525's ?

No I didn't say that I said you can run 100 with standard power. 575's ITS/XR and the short lower with a full year warranty on the total package. And you can do that in a big boat.........36-37-38-39 foot vee bottom. I will stand behind John'd boat running [since that's the question] 94.7 but not 95 today with fuel 160 gallons , safety kit, bumpers [4] with holders, cover and 4 people including me. ice chest empty, porta potty empty, stereo- on, drink holders, anchor and line, and 3 towels, and a sun cushion. I think you will see 525 vee boats running 98 soon. But this is only what I think. But I can prove the above. Mercury can prove the above. Also about 8 other people. I think for the performance boater that is a very good thing for all boats brands. It has to be the customer with out them there is no market. cb

SPIDER MAN :D:D:D:D

That's the other for sure. Again that is only my opinion. cb

Thats Still Smoking !
 

If the Dragon runs solidly in the 90's ( and is comfortable doing it) when it arrives up here I will be very very impressed and happy for both of you but especially for John who has been unusually patient during this project. But I thought the initial criteria when the project began ( according to John) was 100mph on 525's ? I hate the # because it's become the holy grail, and somehow any boat that doesn't "allegedly" go that fast is some how, regardless of how it handles or works, less of a boat. The manufacturers are the ones who have created this monster ( or misconception) so that it rolls off everyones tongue without a real understanding of the costs, dangers and commitment to operate these things.

John has spent a lot of time in my boat and I'm really looking forward to my first ride in the Dragon !

My boy with "the Logo" I can tell ya he digs everything about your rig :D

You are correct about some manufactures or dealers or there sale people. My goal is to run 100 with the 525's and all the stuff. On the first pass at 92. something John would tell you I was happy but it wasn't good enough, I wasn't disappointed but I wanted more. If the Dragon can't bring something special to the market who needs another performance boat. Dragon included. There are plenty of good performance boats available. John went out and took a chance I want him to be more than happy, it should be special. I want the owner of the second one to feel the same. The three changes we made to John's boat with the stuff in it got the Dragon to 94.7. Do you know how many times I tried for that 95 mark? She would make run after run at the same speed GPS. Any way I hope you have a nice Christmas and tell your son he needs more than a Dragon sticker it will be waiting for him at the Cleveland Boat Show. Craig

NO WAY BROTHER
 

Craig, he's not allowed to actually see the boat, much less sit in it, I'll never hear the end of it :rolleyes: Remember, I'm stuck in the late 70's early 80's he's not burdened with " history", twenty years from now I DON'T WANT HIS COOLEST MEMORY OF AN OLD OFFSHORE TO BE WHEN HE FIRST SAW THE FREAK'N DRAGON !! AHHHHHHH BLASPHEMY !!

Enjoy the holidays !
JD

Hey, I was not trying to pick on anyone, just trying to get an experts point of view. It does seem to me like their is a magic number of speed that everyone wants. I for one do not want to sacrifice the ride. It was the question of weight being lost hurting that ride. It seems to me that it does.

I maybe wrong I have not been in a TG for the last two years but have been in another Cig. Just again my .02 let's keep this going though.

I want the greatest ride and 100 MPH.

Just from my observation and experience. The new TS Top Guns are a awesome ride. The older ones I've seen and ridden in seem to porpoise alot. Anybody else agree? BH

Joker I do agree that the 38 cig porpoise a lot. I liked the ride of the old 35' better.

Hey Craig,

I checked out your web site and I have to say that that is an AWSOME boat you guys have put together. Top shelf in all aspects of design, materials and MFG process.

NICE WORK!!

My T/S is a 2001 and does not porpoise at all.

All the TS Cigs lost their porpoise with the addition of steps but that is because when the steps are out in the rocker goes away to give it a 3 point riding surface. I agree with The Joker the older non step stuff has a lope or porpoise to it until you start running in the 70 and over speed ranges then it is up on the back running surface of the boat. But I must agree with Mr. Grady I would rather have the ride in the rough instead of wringing every last once of speed out of it. This probably explains why I have been very partial to the old Apaches and Cigs with bigger power in them.

2 observations if I may?
 

1 This thread is a great example of what's good about oso. No one in a pissing match or taking anything personnal. Just knowledgeable boaters (with the exception of Nauti kitty and JM) sharing their experiences on this topic.
2 The 100mph powerboat article is the perfect example of one thing no one seems to talk about regarding rough water rides. Take a ride in 4' or bigger seas in those two stepped v bottoms and JD's boat from Key West to Ft Lauderdale at 75-85. Both that Cig and Donzi are great boats that haul ass but there would be a good chance that running that hard and fast for that long would leave them driveless. 750 cobras and bravos? Those boats will lose drives at 50 hours or less if they are run hard no matter who's throttling. That's a fact. Mercury needs a drive that lasts and these big heavy old resin buckets have them in 6's. Sadly they are too heavy for boats like the Dragon which no doubt would benefit from a stronger bravo type drive. I think rough water ride also has a lot to do with the drives when it's really rough. Primal Instinct and I made that exact ride four weeks ago in those conditions and when we got back we wanted to turn around and do it again. No one was sore and we never thought about our drives. Oh what a feeling. :D

Amen

Parnell you need an avatar

I have found that the Cig's with Bravos tend to porpoise a little and that the Cig's with SSM III, IV, V, and VI don't porpoise at all. The angle of attack the cig's with these drives were much better than the bravo cig's.

Just my opinion and experience.

Anyone have these similiar experiences?

Panther

My T/S is a Bravo boat, and like I said before it does not porpoise.

I have not been a a Bravo TG with straight bottom.

#1 and # 2 are my choices for now also Fred. However I cannot resize them correctly to put them on there. :mad: Oh well what's three hours on the computer for nothing worth anyway? :o I'm trying again lookout. NK

From the hardware Parnell runs I don't think he's use to makin stuff smaller!

I here it's a compensation thing. :rolleyes: NK

What about surface drives vs. 6's ....how does that affect the ride in rougher water ?

Did someone order a can of worms? :D

Not to get off the topic, but are you guys suggesting a Bat boat will out run a 41' Apache in snotty water???

How are you keeping it in the water?:confused:

surface drives are actually better for a cat application due to the limited adjustment that can be made to the running attitude of the boat. BUT I will be testing some on a V in the very near future and will keep all posted.

Merry Christmas Hans

As for running a flat bottom on a non stepped boat from PAST experience the rocker definitely a better angle of attack and reduces the wetted surface the then flatter non rocker boats. And those who have run both know that the Cigs and Apaches lay down when they get up to speed and start running on the back part of the rocker. The trade off is you need bigger power to accomplish this. But balance is still the secret of the equation.

Sean

Sean -
A very merry christmas to you and yours !
Gimme' a shout when you have a chance...
All the best,
Hans

Hans, drop me a line sometime. Love the thread everyone.

The is a story behind that picture though to make it do the flight it did in that picture. Believe me they don't fly like that all the time. In that series of photos and video as well they had lost a trim pump and had her loosened up pretty good and caught a rogue wave and punched the nose up in the air. If you ask me most other boats would have had the occupants in the drink. Also you have to remember that they were running for first place in that race which was the 1985 worlds.

Sean

If a batboat hit the same wave as the apache in the pic, it to would have headed for the moon ! That had to be a straight flat faced mother of a rogue ! My experience in the bat was truly amazing for a little boat, yes they fly level and require little as far as triming or throttling. They are on the outer edge of even being called a boat as we understand them, with a tiny wetted beam. I found myself to big ( beat my helmet non stop on the canopy) and the damn thing amazingly WET, its got more in common with a deck launched torpedo than a boat ! I can't imagine one without a canopy ! I would very much like to see how the design holds up when it has to provide real world dimensions ( beam) and a reasonable cockpit, storage ect...

BTW I've run next to bats in rough conditions and been amazed at how well they handled it, untill we got bored and left ;) They're great little boats but lets not get carried away :D

I have rode in them a few times, and thet are amazing, but extremely one dimensional. Difficult to dock, impossible to raft and no room for anything but a couple of people. It seems to me this whole thread comes back to real world applications. What does it take to make a boat comfortable, usefull and reliable.

I've never been in a Bat boat. Sounds like I need to try one out. Never though about buying one, but the more I hear about them the more interested I become.

Sorry to get off track, maybe I'll pull up one of the Bat threads and continue this there.

Re: Stinson Knows Of What He Speaks
 

SPEED x BEATING x PUCKER FACTOR equation :D [/B][/QUOTE] hahahahahha.... too funny,,, Gotta love the pucker factor..... :D