I wouldn't have said that. However that was the funniest thing I heard this morning! :D :D :D :D

I will kind of agree with wasabe. If I wasnt confused then I am now. I guess not confused but ...hell I dont even know the word I am looking for. I think it will be the skater but next year I want to ride on both this summer a few times to see what I really like. The skater set up will have to be determined. ITS(Integrated Turbine Service) and I have now talked about either 525's or even the new Vortech. Although I know nothing about the Vortech as of the moment. If the big arnesons are too much we will go with either the lesser ads 6's or the bravo xr's with the ITS package. ITS is saying the big Arnesons will be fine and for the most part will be a bullett proff boat.
How does this sound?

Its ok I got to the marina and had a buddy go and bring me a new belt. We were up and running right after everyone went sscreaming down the choptank.
It was a beautiful ride home. Even the girl liked it.

Actually, that sounds pretty damn cool ... and it would prolly smoke most of the latest and greatest coming out of Detroit today.

G

Originally posted by craig223
I bought my Cigarette because I'm hung like a hamster



Isnt that what everyone says about us.........Asd we all know they say it because they are jelous. And I would love to see one of those people try and drive my boat at 80 mph.

:D :D :D

Turbines are a whole different animal...... You almost have to use Arnesons with turbines, because of the power..... Although, I suggest you fix the drives in place and use a separate rudder..... After that you "tune" the bottom and props to lock in the attack angle....... You can afford to do this with turbines since you have more power than needed and power trim is not as necessary if at all.

T2x

T2x we are not putting a turbine in we are thinking of doing this boat with gas motors. The turbine was too cost prohibitive for me at this stage of the game.

Then don't talk to a turbine shop about your choice of drives......

The biggest problem in making set up selections....is not the number or quality of questions that you ask...but rather your choice of sources.....

If you're discussing Skaters.....ask Peter Hledin, Doug Lewis, Johnny Tomlinson...... and VERY few others.

If you're discussing Cigarettes......ask Tres Martin..... maybe Sean Stinson and......ummmm....errr.....

T2x

oops.......Dave Patnaude, at Typhoon Performance Marine in NJ, is also very knowledgeable about Cigarettes.....

T2x........

That's true! I was in HavasuCig's boat that day. There were ALOT of faster boats there that day. The water was pretty rough...5'-8' swells. We outran the entire fleet of boats except the 42' Tiger with 900's that day. The cats weren't even close to us. Actually, an alarm went off in the boat and we stopped and opened the hatch for approx. 3 minutes and then kept going, and no other boats were in sight! I think the first cat was in 7th place or so.

When we got back to DSM after the run, alot of people were banged up and actually bloody!

In many of the poker runs I've been to....at least 50% of the boats entered.......... beat everybody else.

I call it the miracle of the mid pack......... or the myopic factor (the inability to see over one's endless bow).

T2x:p :p

Actually my boat has a "tunnel" in it........ something you enter.........or run over things with.

Either way....I like the feeling.

T2x;)

No reason to BS anybody. 60+ boats ran, and we were the second one to make it back to the harbor. 86 mile open ocean course, not along the shoreline like others.

Once we passed the initial pack of boats the only one in front of my bow was a Tiger.:cool:

T2X,
Actually we were the 2nd boat to Catalina and 2nd overall in the DSM Poker Run.

There was no "miracle of the mid pack" either. Say what you want to, but you weren't there!!

being in front of most poker runs doesnt mean you were the fastest boat. NYC is a different story and I know their were others that have a first to what ever land mark. Maybe this poker run you were in front in was supposed to be a race, if so thats quite an acomplishment to be 2nd behind a 42 tiger. Were their no big tunnels entered?? Not bashing just a question. We have run a lot of poker runs and run in the middle to back of the pack, everyone runs them at a different speed is all I am trying to say.

HavasuCig's Top Gun runs about 82mph (HP500's) It wasn't close to being the fastest boat out there, but it sure wasn't the slowest either. Out in the rough water, the Top Gun was running FLAT OUT 81-82mph in the big water with 5 people. 4 of us were 225lbs+ each---except Mrs. HavasuCig. (she's about 112lbs for the record!)
There were a few bigger cats. I can remember a 40' Skater, a 32' Skater, a 36' Skater and alot of fast V-bottoms (85+mph) that fell way behind us in the rough water.
As HavasuCig said before, no reason to B.S, anyone here, just the plain facts!! If your a non-believer (like T2X) watch the video of the run and then you will believe.

Not an accomplishment, just a fact. I am simply countering the argument that a cat will beat a V in all conditions.

Every poker run I have run in, I have run hard. This includes the cats I have had. I know that some don't, but most do.

The talk after the runs is always who was the first boat to the first stop. Nobody really cares about who won the poker hands.

Kenny spanked everybody that day in his tiger, and we happened to finish behind him. I would have run just as hard no matter what, must come from my days of racing motorcycles.

I have run in a few runs at Havasu, and we were mid pack because of the flat water. Take what you want from it, but the rough water was an equalizer that day.:cool:

No question the cigs are extremely good rough water boats. For the record I really like Cigs. But, I can not believe the 36 and 40 Skaters were running hard and couldnt keep up. Why dont they race Cats and V's together in offshore races? Its not a fair race. Everyone has their own preference getting back to the orginal question. Now, a Gladiator in rough sees vs the 32 Skater thats a different story. I think it would come down too tolerance of being tossed around, because both boats are going to take a pretty good beating.

Sounds like it was a fun ride, any pics?

If Mr. Luhrs wants to know what Mr. Hleden’s thoughts are on the Arneson’s then maybe he should ask Pete before posting a view on his behalf? If Pete though they were as bad as you, then why does he have drives on order?

You think an Arneson is difficult to dock, and mind you that would only be an issue if were true and the boat was only used for continuous docking, but it’s a B.S. statement. Drive one and see for yourself. There are Marina’s all over the world with boats in their slips and Arneson’s on their transoms.

Want some experience with a new style 32’ Skater with Arneson’s, call one Mr. Jeff Munchen in Cincinnati OH, 513-678-1320. He has this exact boat. Or ask Merlin 540.

As for fixing the drives and using a rudder, step into the new millennium. There has never been a more irrational beast made than a cat with a rudder, regardless of whose device turns the propellers. Docking? Turning? Slow speed maneuverability? Not!

The rhetoric of they are fine for a turbine but bad for a piston engine is an oxymoronic statement to say the least. The boat does not know what is inside the sponsons so why would the drive not work with a piston engine but work extremely well with a turbine?

Think they don’t work well with a turbine? Call ITS, in New Jersey call Mr. Fusco, or Mr. Copeland or Mr. Callan. There are far too many success stories to be considered a one off fluke.

Gas engines; call Global Marine, Nortec, Spectre or even Fountain Powerboats. Etc..

You need to look at the exact issues you stated, the steering geometry has been changed, the boats dock well and they run well with or without the aid of Rocker Plates. Hell they even work on a Chris cat! (Mark Cooper out of Vassar MI)

By the way, I sell 99% of my Rocker Plates to Mercury outdrive customers!

Now if Trader1 wants to use a Mercury product, then fine. It will cost more $, eat more HP, weigh more, place the vertical CG another foot higher in the boat and still not steer or handle any better than an Arneson.

The difference was this wasn't a race (technically) it was a Poker Run. I didn't say the Skaters were running hard, we actually don't know how they were running. I'm sure they were running somewhat hard, but not like they would in a real race. They had a boatload of people in their boats also. Most people run their boats hard when only 2 people are in the boat as opposed to having a full boat. That could make the difference.

Lookout T2X!! RIK seems to know alot about boats also.

More like T2x doesn't know everything...

Nothing is worthy besides the ellusive Shadow Cat to Rich. No bias there... :rolleyes:

I have some video footage from a helo.

To answer your other questions about the cats, I am not sure how hard they ran that day. We passed the 36' tall deck Skater and did not see him again. He is running 500's for the record. He ended up breaking a drive sometime after we passed him. The 40' I never saw. I actually was expecting to get passed by him, but it never happened. I saw him at the start and that was it. i know some of the cats decided not to run to the island because of the rough water. They run up the coast to the third stop instead.

I have run at Havasu with both of the above boats in other poker runs, and they have always run hard. I would think this run would have been no different.

I don't know what else to tell you, that is what happened that day. It was rough enough that I snapped off both of my bilge pumps. Some of the other boats had interior pieces that were broken. Rough day for sure.

I have spoken to Peter and he.....Like Fabio Buzzi..and others ........is always looking for an alternative to Mercruiser......Hence his forays into Sage drives..and etc. The bottom line after all of the above is simply this..... From a service, trim range, simplicity, and resale perspective....a buyer will be better off with #6's than Arnesons. I stand by my statement about the docking ability...and the rocker plates. Originally, the key selling point for the Arnesons was simplicity..... to me that has been negated by their dependence on rocker plates...and whether they work or not is irrelevant (and no doubt..they do) ...it is the NEED for them in the first place that points out the lack of "up trimability" in the Arnesons.

I agree that fixed Arnesons, Buzzi drives, BPM's or direct inboards are a better choice for Turbines...for the reasons I stated..........(In fact we used fixed drives in the 4 engine Jesse James 50 footer for the same reasons).... But, for general pleasure boating, with normal power...I'll take a Mercruiser.....and the 60 year commitment, service network, engineering, and experience they bring to the party.

Finally.......I don't sell Mercruisers.......nor any other drive..... Am I right in assuming that "Rik" is a salesman for Arneson? If so........ objectivity and profitability MAY create a conflict in this dialogue.

One more thing......... Why aren't we discussing drive options in the Cigarette...... After all ..."what's good for the goose......"

T2x............still betting a 32 Skater with #6's...is the ticket.

Actually.....I passed on a chance to get a Shadow Cat for restoration...in favor of my 28 Skater. I have never stated that nothing is as worthy as a Shadow Cat...it was simply one of the first successful offshore cat designs(but is now outdated.....like me;))...and anyone who can read knows my slogan on OSO has always been...... "Buy A Skater". It's interesting that even as the builder of the Shadows, I am open minded enough to accept that other designs have eclipsed it. Funny how Cigarette "loyalists" lack the same objectivity.

For the record...the Arneson drives came out at the same time as the Shadow Cat...The #6 drives were introduced 6 years later....and, once Weismann dry sumped them..... the gear drag efficiency issue was basically solved.

T2x............. At this point, I will bow out in favor of the "experts"

Understand that myself and others value and enjoy having your extensive experience here to clairify gaps in the past and first hand knowledge in this exclusive sport.

Your opinions clearly point to the fact that if its a vee, it's a joke. When it comes to cats you barely give credit to most cat builders as well, even Skater. Maybe it's just the way you type it, but that is the message I receive.

As a Cigarette "loyalist" I am very objective much to your disbelief. Obviously when I want something new I look at all of the boats in Cigarettes class and compare. I am on my third one, meaning no one has shown me a reason to switch. Although, my friend Terry Sobo makes it hard at times :D .

No one wants you to bow out. We know your an expert. We just don't need to be reminded every time you post.

BTW: Did you know John Mullen who raced the Baja "Ofixco Special?"

You have missed my point; the Arneson's do not require the use of the Rocker Plates in order to work effectively. The Rocker Plates are mostly used as a more efficient means of lowering the bow in the rough water conditions than a bow lifting device. Simply put they don’t cost the boater as much speeds as a conventional trim tab and the bow lift can be a good at times.

The Spectre’s, Nortec’s, Skater’s, Hustlers and such are not using any Rocker Plates; instead they are using the Mercury K-Planes. (How can that not be considered a Band Aid is a totally different issue)

Now up trimability, there is no positive trim on an Arneson, but this is true for any surface drive in the world today. Once a propeller is at the surface you cannot trim it higher to gain a mechanically leveraged positive position in the water. This applies to Bravo’s, Buzzi’s and Arnesons fixed or steerable.

With the SSM#6 drives as well as Arneson’s , when the drive is trimmed higher than the surface level, the propeller comes out of the water and they merely start slipping or blowing out as some refer to it as.

With today’s boats having been designed to run more efficiently with a higher X dimension and not needing to rely upon “Positive” trim from an outdrive, they really have designed a boat that runs very well with an Arneson Surface Drive in the process. This no more so obvious as with Fountain Powerboats, but with others as well.

Catamarans have historically run well with out the dependence of positive trim, hence the reason people say the Arnesons work well on Cats. On a Skater with SSM#6’s you will find that the fastest speeds are obtained with the drives in negative trim position. Mr. Gilbreath will even confirm this. This is basically the same propeller shaft angle as an Arneson. Go figure??

While it is true I own Arneson Industries and there is an obvious bias but not negativity towards others products. Your History with Mercury has shaped your opinion more strongly.

Through our relationship with Twin Disc, we also have a world wide presence for serviceability. Believe me, with the Internet and UPS the world is getting very small.

This thread is about the objective advantage/disadvantages of two boats. Seeing as he designed it, I wonder what Mr. Peter’s thoughts are on the Cig with Arnesons???

Thanks for the post Rik!!! Your company produces a great product!

Thank you for the interesting info on your equipment. :cool:

Very informative.;) :cool:

1. Maybe you are reading what is not written.

2. I'm not sure what you mean........I'm asked any number of questions which I answer.........based on my personal experiences.....without hearsay.......How you deal with that is your issue...not mine. But remember, Ill call 'em as I see 'em......... Let's not make it personal.

3. I remember John and the Ofixco...... If memory serves that boat started out as a the Modified boat "Team Baja" and was owned by a guy in the midwest. John added beaks to the nose to make it legal in Open class.....

T2x

I do not think anyone has done this yet but I am not quite sure so I am asking. Has anyone rigged a Gladiator with a set of #6's on the transom? I do know that Tres Martin has found ways to compensate for certain characteristics in the Gladiator. He would be a good source to contact also on this topic for information on the Gladiator.

Really?.............Let me get this straight!

You earn a living selling Arnesons..........(and God bless you in that regard).....I make nothing from Mercury....yet Mercury has "shaped my opinion more strongly." than yours.

While I respect some of what you have said.......that statement is at best debatable....and at worst.... ludicrous on the face of it.

I am blessed (cursed perhaps) with the world's most sensitive B.S. meter....... and it is ringing like a cowbell right now.

Back to the topic at hand.......... I like and respect Howard Arneson...... and am amazed at his performance boating accomplishments. His drives do certain things well.....and other things not so well (trim). If the "rocker plates" are really trim tabs.......than what the heck is all the bending and convexity about....a gimmick?... Rocker is used , by definition, ...for bow lift......

If your devices are designed to create rocker...than they should, by the same definition,......... lift the bow.

If they don't create rocker....why call them "rocker plates" in the first place? Call them trim tabs......... but then explain how you are going to raise the bow when your drive system merely lifts the prop out of the water when trimmed.

Look........ You sell drives...and I respect that...... I don't....but if I were buying a Skater.....and wanted to maximize re-sale/and enjoyment....... I'd put #6's on it. If I wanted to scatter black cast parts all over the neighborhood....I'd put Bravos on it....(Mercury must have failed on that part of my opinion "shaping") . Does that mean I prefer Arnesons to Bravo's? Probably...but I'd certainly look at other alternatives first.

T2x...........

P.S........ I prefer outboards to inboards of any kind...... Maybe this is why;)

1. That may very well be the case. My apologies.

2. Yes, you do get a barrage of questions. I appreciate you answering them good or bad. Again, maybe I have misinterpreted some of them.

And 3. I have known John and his family for 14 years. I always wanted to ask if you remember him. Yes it did in fact start as a mod and he put the beaks on. Pretty cool that you can remember all that stuff.

John now own's "Thunder Bay Marina" here on Grand Lake Oklahoma. He is a cruiser dealer these days, Kinda funny. :D :D

With all this discussion... I guess I'll comment. knowing nothing about either really :D It seems to me, even though our opinions typically clash that T2x is right. There are many more future owners of the boat (resale value) that would rather have the #6's. The when an new buyer looks at an arneson he sees something he can't quite explain. There are many more mercury dealers throughout the country to service the drives. And then on the other hand the arneson shouldn't need serviced.... I mean there is really nothing there besides a shaft with a u joint. I like the simplicity of the arneson and reliability myself, but with the mercury monopoly the #6 is probably the way to go.

what is the price difference?

I think if arnesons sold new and rigged for less then half of the merc they would be the best choice.

Merc can sale their big drive because of the name and reputation behind them. Arnesons are really only found on extremists boats.

Ernie

my bro has arnesons on his 39 express cat...runs great docks simple....would definately say buy arnesons

You are obviously dancing around in this far too much and diverting from the topic. I never said that the Rocker Plates did not create rocker merely that an Arneson Surface Drive does not have to be accompanied by them for a boat to work. The Rocker Plates also create hook, why don’t I call them Hook plates??

You stated your option that they Arneson’s are a mistake, dangerous and need a band aid to work, but at the same time you state that the boat manufacturers are looking for an alternative to Mercury’s drives. If Mercury’s drives are so perfect then why would anyone want an alternative? Why is a K-Plane not a band aid and why would a boat need a drive to pick the bow up and a K-Plane to push it back down with and still be considered great? It’s just the reverse of your negative statement of the Arneson’s.

Also, you should really do yourself a favor and actually get some experience with the said boat this topic is covering. I have and hence I can tell you what it is like. The boat definitely does not need any bow lift from the Rocker Plates in order to run well or fast with the Arneson’s. The Arneson’s also do not make it a dangerous boat or a mistake.

The B.S. meter must not read your own writing as you have more of a biased view than anyone else that post on this board and it is consistently Mercury and negatively towards Arneson’s when the topics arise. If the world only heard your un-experienced view it would be a far worst world. I have provided a proven example of the boat that Trader1 wants with the Arneson’s that is a success and you have not persuasively proven otherwise.

I agree, outboards are amazing. That’s why I use them on the 28’ Skaters that I sell but not the larger boats.

Now let’s let this thread continue without the banter.

You Bad ;)