Diesel powered sport boats?
 

Do such boats exist? I've seen that Mercruiser has a new line of diesel motors w/stern drives. Have these motors made it into sport boats?

I've seen diesel powered mega sport/cruiser boats (magnum for example), but not 24-40ft sport boats.

Bob Saccenti and Eric Froberg shoved a couple of Yanmar diesels in a 28 Apache.The boat was used as a tender for a larger yacht;)

Great idea from a reliability standpoint.

There is a Chris Cat on Lake Erie in NY/ PA with a pair of 420 Yanmar's in it.With surface drives.I seen it in Port Dover last year. not bad looking but sounds strange.

Warpaint would you have any details on that 28 Apache with Yanmars like drives and what performance they saw afterward? Pics?

In Europe they have been running Lamborginni and Seatek diesels in the UIM sanctioned offshore racing for years. These boats are well over 120 mph now! The guys in the mediteranean love the big water and their diesel toys!
Raylar;)

Sonic has done some recent work with diesels.

seateks blow away the yanmars but I cannot find any local support.

Where is "super termoli"

Seatek is who Sonic has been working with. They got a 45 with twin 800s into the 90s with French surface drives. If all else fails, contact Richard Hewitt, President of Sonic, and see if he can point you toward someone. I met the Seatek tech rep from Europe who came over to rig and tune First Derivitive, the 45 Sonic, and he is a super nice guy. He may be in the states semi-permanent now.

super termoli is back! i've been silent but kept my ears open. Yes, "first derivative" was a 45' sonic with twin 820hp Seateks and SDS drives (designed by France Helices). It was hoped that the boat would go over 100mph but I don't know if that materialized. Anyway, it turned out to be more difficult than anticipated and I was informed that they went through a fair number of props trying to make that thing go. However and in all fairness, the problem was more with the drives than anything else. Out of all surface drives, SDS is probably the one I would recommend the least. The advantage? Low cost. Also, that Sonic was not designed to take that much weight in the back (there was approx. 5000 pounds worth of motors, gearboxes and drives in the back). But, I heard the boat went pretty well when it was all sorted out. I heard 98 mph. That Seatek rep was Stefano Riva, a super-nice guy who really tried to promote the name in the US. Unfortunately, he is not with Seatek anymore. It was a very frustrating task for him as he was juggling with very limited resources while trying to do his job. Nonetheless, Seateks are great engines and have won many UIM titles. They are not as reliable as a Detroit-MTU or a Cat for instance but way more reliable that a gas V8. If maintained correctly, they are good for between 1000 and 2000 hours without major interventions. This is my experience and some people will tell a different story because what I'm saying is true only if you are very pedantic with your service and if you know the engine and its small problem areas. If that is not the case, Seateks will punish you. As there has never been a strong support network in the US, having very regular service by people who are specialists is nearly impossible and that's how Seateks got a bit of bad rep. And it is a shame because it fundamentally is a great engine. Some have complained that they smoke too much on acceleration but even this can be fixed by small modifications of the turbo-charging system.
Compared to that, a Yanmar is much easier to live with. If you're sloppy about your service and oil changes, it will not hold it against you. 5-year warranty, good for 5000 hours before major work takes place. This engine won a number of endurance championships and Buzzi is actually using more Yanmars than Seateks right now.
As for performance boats, there is the new Hustler 50 Esprit de Soleil. It has Trimax surface drives and 4 Yanmars for approx. 80 mph. It will cruise all day at 70 and will have a range of over 500NM at 55 mph. It is also available with trip Seateks which is good for 100 mph. Remember, this boat is 23 000 pounds dry. Other than that, the owner of Hustler, Joe, has a 388 Slingshot with twin 440 Yanmars and Arnesons and he is running over 80 mph. Very close to performance you would get with twin 500s. Hustler can also do a 388 with twin 315 Yanmars and XRs which will get you over 60 mph. The problem is the fact that Bravos won't take much more than 315 Yanmars for very long. Fountain also had a 42 with twin Yanmars and Arnesons and it reportedly ran over 80 mph and they have their 48 Express with triples which will do over 60 mph. Remember, this boat is 12' wide! Nortech also had a 50' with triples which was close to 70 mph. Plus, cat manufacturers like MTI and Spectre are experimenting with Yanmars. All in all, as the tendency for boats is to get bigger and bigger, you need more and more torque to move them in anything other than flat water. And when you need torque, you need diesels. If you're interested in a diesel performance boat, I would talk to someone like Joe or Chip from Hustler because they are great believers in diesel power. And they just bought Keith Eickert so they really have no interest in giving thimbs up to diesels. They do so simply because if you're not out to break speed records, if cruising at 70 mph is what you're after, if you want to log 500 trouble-free hours per season on your boat and if tinkering and adjusting carburetors and blowers is not your thing, then they're the way to go... They will never roar like a V8 but horses for courses as they say...

The MTI Yanmar 440's/Arneson boat was at the Miami show and looked very, very nice. 2,000 hour warranty with 10,000 hours between rebuilds. Because of outdrive limitations, 300/315 hp is about the limit right now. Volvo has just intruduced a new sterndrive that may handle diesels up to 400 hp.

One of the nicest packages I've ridden in was a 50' Nor-Tech with 3 440 Yanmarsand #6's. It ran over 70, but cruised effortlessy at 60+. That's the real strength of diesels - their cruise speed is much closer to their top speed than is the case with gas engines.

This is going to be a very active area in the next few years.

This is what I'd be interested in, but on a smaller scale. I'd like to run at 50mph all day long at reasonable fuel economy. I use my boats every weekend from May to October (I'm up North) all day long.

Of all of the 43 and 50' V bottoms we've produced, about 25% have gone the Yanmar route. Bravos for the 315s and 6's or ASD for the 440's. 55 MPH cruise speed, half the fuel burn. You just have to give up the top end.

TS

oso member taboo has a diesel powered cat he is working on.

Super T,
Good to see you back in the saddle again, your posts are always of interest.:cool:

Team Scarab using the Cummins-Merc combo, more info here.

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...threadid=62888

merc makes a 7 drivejest for diesels . i bet you were looking at the 7 drive, it looks like a 6, but bigger it swings a 22 in dim prop. fountain used them for a time in the late 90s , the yanmars with asd 9 or 10 in a 42 will run 82 mph all day long . loaded to the gilles

thanks, SS930. and yeah, i forgot the scarab with the cummins diesels and trimax drives. they are out to break some records and have already done so...

But C-Spray has a very important point. I honestly believe that an 80-85 mph diesel boat is as good as a gas-powered boat capable of over 100 mph in anything but flat water. Diesels have more torque so every time you hit a wave and are effectively slowed down by that impact, a diesel boat will get back to its initial speed faster than a gas boat. Secondly, diesels have mechanical governors which keep the RPMs constant whatever the prop load is. In other words, whether the prop is in or out of the water doesn't matter, the engine will keep the RPMs fairly constant. Since there is no risk of overreving, you do not need to throttle the boat apart for your own comfort ie. if you do not want to hit a big wave at WOT. These two observations make for a smaller loss in diesel boat's momentum every time you hit a wave. This is why the operation is smoother and the effective cruising speed is so close to the top end. You do have to give up your top end though because of the sheer weight of mechanics and limited peak power.
Buzzi's boats were never the fastest boats out there. They were running 130-135 at best when cats were already well over 150 but he managed to beat them because of the above.

Chuck, if you're looking to cruise at 50, you do not need a diesel boat capable of much more than 60 mph. Something like a 35 to 38 ft. boat with a pair of 315 Yanmars will give you that speed and will really be super reliable and economical to run. And with Bravo XRs, you would not have any drive problems. They will also take the 370hp version but with 315s, you would be very safe... and my guess is you would be burning a total of 15 gallons per hour @ cruise.

I know that Hustler made a 50' with 4 diesel engines with straight drives, it runs around 90 mph. Also know that Joe at Hustler Powerboats has either a 444 or 388 hustler with triple diesels and says that it goes around 85. He says people stick big gas power in their boats and blast around at 110 mph+ and he will cruise all day at 85 or so and that it is just a matter of time until he catches up with you. Call hustler, i know they have done a few diesel applications with straight drives and the outcome has been positive

justin

That hustler 50' is called "Esprit de Soleil" and it was built very heavily and absolutely loaded with equipment so that there are no options available on that boat! It's approx. 23 000 pounds dry and over 10' wide and it does about 80 mph. It will accelerate from standstill to 60 in under 10 seconds. It has ZF 2 forward speed trannies which are shifted into high gear at approx. 35 mph and the acceleration is tremendous. You really have to hold on as you have 3200 lb-ft of torque pushing you. The prototype of that boat was obviously lighter and it actually hit 86 mph.

As for Joe, the owner of Hustler, he has a 388 Slingshot called "Diesel Demon". He keeps it in Florida and often does long cruises from Naples to the Keys and that's exactly what he says. Guys blast past him at 100+ but then have to back off a little. He is just cruising at 75 and starts catching up and the guys hit it again until the pressures and temperatures start rising again and he catches up again and so on. And this usually goes on until the other guy either breaks something or runs out of fuel. His 388 has twin 440 Yanmars on Arnesons and it does 83-84 mph. Pretty close to speeds you would expect with twin HP500s. He also had a 40' with triple 350 Yanmars on Bravos which was a great boat but was eating drives like they were going out of fashion. Then Hustler made a 40' with twin 440s and SDS drives for Joe's friend and the boat is great: stand-up, fully-loaded cabin, generator, entertainement system... and it does about 70 mph. To cut the long story short, they really are into experiementing with diesels. And others are getting into it too. I hear even Outerlimits is doing something with twin Yanmars on their 38.

Justin, do you own that 21 with a flame paintjob and a whipple-charged 6.2 small block?

I have been saying this for years. Soon it will trickle down to the smaller boats. Imagine a 32 Skater with 370hp yanmar and arneson drives. How about an Eliminator 28' cat with a diesel and a bmax drive. It's only a matter of time.

I think you're right marty. But the tragic thing in all of that is the reason why it will happen. It's because the technology which can make a gas motor a very powerful and reliable thing at the same time is not being used by industry leaders. Technology which is available right here and right now. If somebody came up with a gas motor that uses all technological advances available today, a big block would probably be around 750hp and be as reliable as a performance diesel like Yanmar. And they would actually make more sense for smaller boats because less weight means less of a need for big torque. As a fuel, I believe gasoline is superior to diesel, with better combustion characteristics and I think it would be sad to see people turn to diesels just because the gas engine development stalled somewhere in the 1970s. I think a 2004 technology gas motor would actually be better than a 2004 technology diesel but we're simply not offered that choice. We're currently forced to choose between a 2004 diesel and something like a 1970 gasoline motor. Not a fair comparison...

larry smith....

Wow,

Thinking of a diesel powered single on a 28' Pantera or a 30' Superboat. But how about the cost of the entire engine package of, say, a 350 or 370 with a surface drive or Bravo as compared to the cost of buying a gas powered and Bravo setup. Understandably, in the long run with maintenance and fuel consumpption I imagine the diesel setup is cheaper. But initially, what's the basic difference?

I'm not sure of the actual $ amount, but diesel will be considerably more.

not so sure. a yanmar 315 costs under 14K for a shipyard and a 440 will cost under 25K. A complete Trimax surface drive assembly is 5K. An Arneson ASD6 is more expensive but it's cheap compared to a #6 drive. Why are diesel boats so expensive then? Because manufacturers in general have the tendency to charge more when they do something different. Part of it is justified because of tooling-up costs, etc. Part of it is unjustified and done only because they feel that they can do it due to the fact that they're doing something new, catering for a fringe niche of the market which is more affluent, etc... But, with basic mechanics' cost the way it is now, there is no reason why a boat powered by twin Yanmars should be much more expensive that a boat powered by twin HP500s.

i'll go even further... if chuck wants a boat with 315 or 370 Yanmars and XRs, there is no reason why this boat should not actually be CHEAPER than an equivalent boat with 500s or even 496s...

So for about $19k I can set up a single 370 complete with drive, from top to bottom?

super termoli i am the one that owns that one off 21 hustler with the flame job, it is a wild ride let me tell ya...here of pic of my baby

I'm just curious about the subject, I'm looking to actually buy some thing much smaller.

Though it seems to me that a 22-24 deep vee (say 24 degree V) with a 300hp diesel would be a great boat. Sure it wouldn't do 70mph, but something like that could chug along at 50mph all day long. Or perhaps a 30ft sportboat with twin 300hp diesels. Same idea but for "bigger water."

Chuck

Those engine/drive packages are out there right now. Volvo has two, and Mercury has one.

GM had every chance to upgrade their technology just three years ago with the introduction of the 496. Other than distributor-less ignition, they pretty much chose to ignore progress....

we're on the same page, c-spray...

Sure, you can buy those off the shelf, but which sport boat manufacturers offer them on new boats as an option.

Nortech, Phantom, Hustler and MTI as far as I know.

There was definately a Fiore OuterLimits (42?) twin CAT diesels w/Arnesons a few weeks ago on EBay. Like 2000 or 2001, all white, with black and white checkered finish line flag graphics on the rear sides, nearer to Outerlimits oval emblems. I bid $110,000 for it :) not a prayer ... boat never met reserve and it never come back on EBay ,, yet. Description said $550,000 to build for the one owner boat. Low hours too!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: I wish I had saved the pics or the link to the auction :( It was sweet and very economical!! LOL

So who do you believe -the guys that say it's torque that really drives the boat and matters?

If this is true, for a little less than $20K you can go buy a Yanmar producing 315HP engine that's making 450-500 lbs of torque and that includes a warrantied Merc Bravo X Diesel drive. (Emphasis on the warrantied drive.)

Would this be comparable to spending $25K for an HP 500 EFI and Bravo One? I don't think you can compare it to a 496HO.

And then the next step up is the 440HP making something on the order of 750-850 lbs of torque. For a smaller boat (less than 30 feet) and single engine application, you have to find a drive that can take that, and as I'm coming to find out, that can get very expensive. Plus there just don't seem to be that many single engine Arneson installations out there.

Who do you believe?

For user-friendliness, acceleration, mid-range stuff and anything other than top end, torque is important, no question about it. And it's not a question of belief, it's a well-recognized fact. But your observation is 100% valid and it doesn't concern only diesel engines. There is a gap in the drive market as there is nothing between a Bravo and a #6 capable of handling a 440hp diesel or a 700 to 800hp gas motor, those two being equivalent in this case as they are both good for 700 to 800 lbs of torque. What do you do when it all becomes too much for a Bravo but you do not want to shell out for a #6? Trimax takes care of my problems but I have to admit that if you don't have a transom capable of housing it, you're pretty much lost and have to resort to stuff like B-Max, Imco, Teague which, without meaning any disrespect, are not definite answers to your drive problems... Arneson may have the right idea though. They have a new ASD6 out which has trannies in the extension boxes and is quite competitive in terms of price. Now they have to renew the whole range and make a new ASD8 which would take care of Yanmars and 700 to 900 hp V8s. For now, it's gonna have to be either shell out for a #6, redesign your transom for Trimax or shell out for ASD8 and chain boxes...

so where does that put us in terms of money for a single installation on a 30'?

I wonder about the warranty with a Yanmar 315 and a Bravo as the Yanmar's pop Bravos as fast as the 500 efi's do. It would have to be a really light weight boat to work for a long period of time.

The 440 Yanmar is packaged to the in-line ASD8 drive units on our end. The marine gear on the Yanmar takes care of the reduction, rotation and drop so it would be redundant to do this twice on a boat. These are not typically placed in small boats. Typical applications are boats over 38’ for performance boating that is so there is sufficient engine room space and the CG concerns are not an issue. But if they are, we can adjust to correct that.

The ASD8 in-line is fairly cheap at $12K ea. with a warranty.

Problem is that everyone wants a super boat speed, acceleration and such on a Bravo budget. It isn’t going to happen and that isn’t Mercury’s fault or anyone else’s. It just the way it is.

GM’s diesel engine is being marineized in Norway I believe. They were at the Miami boat show and the motor has a Whipple on it. Makes some respectable power and is not an anchor in the weight department.

Diesels are cruised at 80% of their max power or rpms. They tend to live the longest there and they get good efficiency at that point as well. The same cannot be said for the Petrol engines. GM and others could take some of BMW’s or Honda’s variable cam timing and such and make a gas engine much more efficient and powerful. The rubber cam belt would have to be changed to a chain for reliability and such but the principals are there for a better big block, I guess it’s just too easy to get the power we need with old technology rather than change to what’s available.

I almost forgot about this. Say hello to JOLLY DRIVE. It's similar to Arnesons, made of 316 stainless steel, specifically made to suit square 12-13° transoms as an aftermarket Bravo remplacement. It's made by Cartello, the Italian importer of Yanmar engines. And guess why they developed it? Simply because they got tired of hearing: "yeah, I'd love to buy one of your engines but I don't have anything solid to hook it up to". It's also intended to be substantially cheaper than Arnesons so this may be the answer for people who do not want to shell out mega bucks for Arnesons or #6 but still want either diesel torque or 700-800 gas motors. I am not sure what the drive only price is but I believe a full package is around 45K retail. This includes a Yanmar 440, a ZF trannie, the drive with steering. I don't think it's being imported in the U.S. yet, but maybe someone ought to take care of that because there seems to be some demand...