The ultimate engine?
 

The parameters are:

A) You can't spend more than $15K per motor.

B) The motor has to be completly rigged. Water system, oil system with cooler and filter, fuel system including pump, ignition, harness, etc. Carb to pan. Ready to bolt in (less headers and engine mounts).

C) Must run on pump gas. 92 Octane (we can put in high eighties at the local pump and add booster if need be).

D) Naturally asperated or blown, doesn't matter. Single, twin carb or fuel injection, doesn't matter. Intercoolers or no, doesn't matter. ANY combination

E) It's gotta start and idle. Turn the key and go

F) It's gotta live. That means we should limit it to 6000 RPM max.

G) 90 Warranty

Motors like the NA 632 CI 725HP Marine Engines Inc. package seem to fit the bill and has a warranty. The motors are bare but could be rigged for 5K less mounts and pipes.

I am sure there are quite a few other packages that may not only produce more power but may be more reliable???

O.K. experts, let er rip.

Whirly

Comon Mark! Please expound. We need cubic inches, horsepower ratings, etc...

Give us the goods on a particular package.

Whirly

In your dreams, come on, wakeup, you get what you pay for

you can't get too "ultimate" for 15k per engine.


I don;t believe you coudl get a merc HP500 for under taht number

My definition of "ultimate" in this particular case is what is the best possible combination for the money is that is available. Most people on this forum don't have $35 K to spend on one engine, much less two.

As I stated earlier. There are competitive packages available for 15K like the 632 C.I. Marine Engines Inc. package making 725 HP with a warranty for less than $10,000.00 in long block form.

There has to be other packages out there that are similar. I know I am not the only one thinking in this way.

Whirly

As Mick Jagger puts it so eloquently:

"You can't always get what you want"
"but if you try sometimes, you just might find - you get what you need"

If you got a budget of $15k, you may WANT a reliable 750 horse pump gas package...

You can most CERTAINLY build what you want from good platforms for that price, but to have one delivered to your porch ready to drop in for $15k? Better work with a well respected marine builder and make sure you cover all of your bases.

Whipple a pair of 500Efis

725HP complete package for 15K???

I'm no expert, but I doubt it.

I don't think 15k is going to buy much more than stock if you want reliability.

Maybe I'm missing something.

Just my opinion.

Dean

whipple a pair of 454 mags....

What about the 632 cubic inch Marine Engines Inc. package. There was a good thread a while back listed under 632 CI 725 HP. Here's the link http://www.1800runsnew.com/gm13.htm

There's a motor that is only making alittle more than 1 HP per C.I. Compression is most likely around 9.5 to 1. It comes with a warranty and makes great power for the money.

I hear you guys telling me it's not possible to build 700 HP reliably that will run on pump gas with a warranty but the above exists and it is available. The long block is approximately $10,000.00 less intake, carb and rigging. The other post had everything to complete it bought new and installed at around $5,000.00 Giving us our $15,000.00 total mark less pipes and mounts.

Whipple keeps coming up. I have heard great things about their product. Does anyone build a solid marine long block (crate motor) in the 454 to 502 C.I. range with low compression that could be Whippled to make the same type of power? I know this would eliminate the "warranty provision" but if the long block is a good solid product to begin with it should still meet the rest of the requirements.

This thread was originally listed because I see alot of guys that are buying and selling good used equipment on the "parts for sale thread". I began to review possible packages with used equipment much like "Too Old" and other guys have done in the past. One of the main reasons for this is because engine packages have become so costly. I am trying to find out what other OSO'ers may know that I do not. What might be the "best" or "Ultimate" power for the dollar.

Whirly

Hmm
 

How many you looking for ?

I have some other's I may consider letting go.
Stotler's freshend by Carolina Racing.
720 hp each.

Cougarman

Cougarman,

How many engines DO you have in your possession???

You could start Cougarman Racing Engines! :D

Whirly

I have two 598`s less accesories
I have one 555 650 hp na
I have one 555 850 hp sc
I have one 622 750 hp na

All these long blocks are new and just in parts alone on any is about 10k not including the time it takes to put one together to spec, checking all the clearances
and the piston to valve etc. Knowone that builds a motor of this size can give out any warranty under $15k
because there is no room for error, just in prep alone there is so much time and $$$$ good luck to you on a reliable timex :rolleyes: :o :( :rolleyes: ;) :mad: :eek: :confused:

MYPANTERA28,

I appreciate your insight. Yes, good equipment is expensive. But in the case above, Marine Engines Inc. is one of the largest marine engine builders in the country. They purchase parts on a scale we only dream of. They also have large assembly plants that have the capacity to load the company overhead according to where it is or is not needed.

As stated earlier in the post: Marine Engines Inc. is selling a long block 632 C.I. at 725 HP for just under $10K. The parts and labor to rig the motor don't exceed $5K. This will give us a $15K total and meet all of the original requirements including a warranty. I am by no means implying that this is the best engine package for the money, it's just an example. I have not owned one or experienced their product.

I don't believe this is the only company that can produce these numbers, hence the reason for the thread.

What other packages, outside of the one above, would meet the original criteria?

Whirly

Wow, maybe you and Marine Engines Inc need to get a room... ;)

IMHO, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. If a reliable 700+ hp motor could be built and warrantied, profitably, for $15K, I'd guess you'd see them everywhere. The fact that literally dozens of reputable engine builders, from Sterling to Chief to TMP, etc etc etc, don't have a product like this leads me to believe that something just don't smell right.

But I'm jest a po' country boy, so what do I know? :confused:

with out exhaust and some of the pretty stuff you can have these new with warranty for 15k. 800+hp and 91 octane fuel.

and these have all the best parts. inconel valves, fully cnc ported heads balanced blueprinted je pistons, ect.

Dockrocker,

The reason that Sterling, Chief and TMP don't produce a 700 HP motor for 15K isn't because it can't be done or that it is too good to be true, it's economies of scale. All of the previously mentioned companies have neither the buying power or the ability to distribute overhead the way the larger companies do. Marine Engines Inc. is the supplier of the engine, Recon Engines builds them (I believe). The companies have history and are reputable (see previous post on this engine below).
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...&highlight=632

Would I rather have a Sterling engine? Of course, but I can't afford them and neither can most people. Mike builds a tremendous product and fills a very small niche in a very selective market. His product, along with many of the other high performance engine manufacturers are built with the very best by the very best, that's why the product brings the money it does. As it has always been in any niche market.

I do believe, however, that there can be reliable power for the rest of the boating market that can be purchased for 15K an engine. It doesn't have to make 700 H.P. , it could make 550 or 600. When it comes time to purchase power I want to believe that I have purchased the best possible powerplant for the money, as I believe most do. This was the intent of the thread. Education.

It would be great for some of you with more experience than I to tell how a potential powerplant that would meet the original criterea of the thread could be built and purchased instead of telling us all the reasons it can not be done.

Whirly

Maybe no one is "tell[img] how a potential powerplant that would meet the original criterea of the thread could be built and purchased" for $15K because it cannot be done.

*shrug*

Like I said, if it were possible to build reliable, warrantied, marine engines that make 700 hp consistently and to turn a profit while selling them at the price of a HP500 , you'd see them everywhere.

Bigyellowcat,

Beatiful motors. Great power and a great price. Are you an engine builder by trade?

Whirly

Dockrocker,

Sounds to me like you have had some bad experiences in the past. You sound awfully jaded.

I have already listed one company that produces a product that meets the criterea and that was just off the top of my head. 725 hp on 632 ci is barely 1 hp per ci and is not considered a radical or unreliable package. I asked the question because I couldn't imagine there weren't more.

Like many past powerboat owners, I too have been sold high performance engines that not only didn't meet up to the expectations of what was promised, they had to be "traded in" on different motors because they just didn't run well.

I would prefer not to go through the experience again. I would also be willing to sacrifice power for reliability.

Ron Sporl offers a 650 HP blown 454 at a price of $15,000.00 I am not sure if that has all the accessories or not but those are not terribly expensive. He also offers a 555 C.I. long block that makes 600 HP for $10K. That motor can be rigged like the Marine Engines package for less than 5K. I haven't spoken to him but I assume he gives at least a 90 day warranty.

Hekimian Racing offers a 406 C.I. long block carb to pan that makes 640 HP for $12,000.00 That is a small block stroker motor.

Too Old is going to get his hands on some off-lease GMC Vortec 8100 Marine Engines. Complete with water, fuel, and oil systems ready to install, less headers for around $9,000.00 These are rebuilt but do come with a warranty. They produce 550 HP.

Even with my limited amount of knowledge and experience it doesn't seem terribly difficult to find decend power for the money. I can't imagine that others on this site have similar packages that you have heard of.

Whirly

I think this is an excellent thread. We need to find alternative ways to buy great products at lower prices.
I love boating, but the price of boats, motors, drives (#6) is already getting friggin rediculous. I don't have the money to buy a $300K+ boat per say, but I have a real "problem" with spending alot of money on something that will be worth half it's purchased value in 5 yrs of use

What really makes me wonder.......why does it usually cost over $20K to make a 700HP+ motor in a boat---but you can get them much cheaper with these stats for a car?????? I know a marine motor is "marinized", but come on, these dmn things cost a fortune.

Semper Fi,

Your frustration is felt among most high performance powerboats including myself.

It is one of the reasons the thread was started in the first place. I do believe, however, that we need to be cautious not to compare our powertrain with those of the land lubers. The "marinization" process of the engine itself has very little to do with added cost of the engine package. The inclusion of the sea pump, strainer (if there is one), crossover, etc. is a small cost of the overall product.

Our costs are drastically increased in the quality of the components that must be used to survive the incredible load factors powerboats put on them. Powerboat engines run higher rpm for extended periods of time with load factors drastically higher than those of an automobile.

Most engines designed and built for cars, even high perf. ones, wouldn't last a month in a boat. That is why so many engine builders with automotive backgrounds have little success in the marine industry. That is not to say the current marine engine builders out there don't build good products, just that most would agree automotive builders have come and gone.

With all of that said. I still believe there are good quality, reliable, turn key engine packages that are available to guys like us who can't spend $35K on an engine. I believe some of the examples listed above are good options but I still haven't had much input on some of the other options I am sure are out there.

Whirly

Whirlygig, is the Recon engines you referenced above from Philly?

That's correct Bob.;)

Whirlygig, we do offer some engine packages in the price range that you are looking for. We have a 525 hp 502 for $17,500 and an aluminum head 575 hp 502 for $19,000. Both packages are complete from flame arrestor to oil pan and have a one year warranty. They do not include exhaust or motor mounts.
Whether we are building a 500 hp engine or a 1500 hp engine, we take the same care and pride in its assembly. Quite simply, time costs money. We are a custom engine shop, not a production shop. We may take two weeks or more in an engines assembly alone. We do not strive to build as many engines as possible. We strive to build the best engine possible. We do not settle for "good enough" or "that will do". We only settle for perfection.
The higher horsepower engines cost more because the quality of parts must be much better, and with that increased quality comes increased prices. We still charge the same amount to assemble it. In an engine like the one that Marine Engines is selling, the cheap price is a direct result of cheaper parts. When you have an engine with a 4.750" crankshaft, like the 632, you have a much larger rotational mass. This is not the place for a crank and rods that are made in China. They do not have the strengh to continuously support that added mass. They may work in a smaller dispacement engine, buy I personally would not build an engine with that combiation because I don't think that it will live.
If, or when, that crank or rods break and you have to start all over, where is the savings.
As for Ron Sporl, he does not offer any warranty what so ever. I am very familiar with engines from both of these companies, as I have rebuilt many of them when they broke.
Please do not misunderstand me. I am certainly not bashing or badmouthing either of these companies. You will never here that from us. I am just trying to give you a little insight as to why the pricing is the way it is.
If we can help you in any way, please do not hesitate to call. TMP
By the way, do a search on Marine Engines (1800runsnew) There was a thread around March of 03 about some problems with them.

TMP,

Thanx for the input. Your 525 HP is an example of a well built, reliable engine package with a warranty for around the 15K mark.

I would also agree that the 632 is an awfully long stroke which does increase stress on the crank. As I stated earlier in this thread, I don't think that is necissarily the engine to go with. I am also willing to give up some HP for reliabiltiy. It does seem however there are many that believe you just can't get reliable power for 15K and I just don't believe that's true. Your 525 HP package is a good example of the contrary.

I used Recon engines as an example because with their purchasing power and size they could take the money they were saving on parts, couple that with their ability to defer their overhead through the products that are "production style" engines such as the smaller crusader lines and a company would have the ability to produce a high performance marine engine for less money without sacrificing quality.

This is done all of the time in other business. Take a company that currently has a base line of products that are successfull, they "keep the lights on" by covering the overhead of the company and produce the company a decend profit. That company may then have the freedom to allocate a small section of the company to producing a niche product, maybe something higher end, that may or may not produce a profit, to build brand awareness and open new doors for the company. In this senario, with the companies buying power and overhead deferment, this company can concievably produce a very high end product for substantially less than a competing company that depends soley on the profit of that product to keep them afloat.

Again, this thread is more of an educational hunting trip for those of us who want to try and find the best possible engine package of the dollar.

Corrado,
To answer your question on bringing highperf hardward to a local engine builder. That is certainly an option but you will pay retail for all of your parts. By the time you purchase those parts, bring them to a local shop and pay a local builder for time and expertise in assembly your cost will be more for your engine than if you were to go to TMP and purchase their 525 HP package.

Whirly

Item 1: You started the thread talking about a 700+ hp package ready to drop in for $15k with a warranty. You make some good observations and some decent arguments, but then all of a sudden decide that you were talking about 525 hp being okay. You have just made a huge concession in your requirements but are acting like it is a non-issue... Are you wanting 700 hp or 525 hp? It DOES make a difference.

Item 2: Part content. Sure, everybody you talk to will be using a brand name forged piston, good rod bolts, good bearings. Roller rockers, etc.. A big inch motor has the choice of going with a $900 crank that is externally balanced (cheap and fragile), or a $1,700 crank that is internally balanced. You can have a set of $100 valvesprings with the same specs as a set of $650 valvesprings. You can have $40 retainers or $250 retainers. You can have a block that has just been assembled, or you can have one that has been hand-deburred, detail work done on the oiling system, cating flash ground off, and internally painted. You can have a bored and single pass honed block, or you can have one that was step honed to the proper size, finish, and angle of pass (with proper torque plates installed). It goes on and on.

I want not only good parts (which are expensive), but I want the proper level of detail work done on them as they go together. You speak again and again about RunsNew's operation being used to "mass rebuilding" of high volumes of motors. THAT IS EXACTLY WHY I WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM FOR A PERFORMANCE APPLICATION. Unless they do the performance motors in a building a mile down the road from the mass assembly, then if I were FORCED to purchase my performance motor from them I would want them to send it to me completely unassembled....

Parts cost money. Parts can be purchased much cheaper in large quantities. BUT LABOR STILL COSTS MONEY. LOTS OF MONEY. If you are getting it cheaper there, then it's not because they pay half of what Pfaff or Crockett pays for parts. IT's CAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME IN IT - or cause they are paying $12/hr to their assemblers instead of $25/hr.

Item 3: You have made mention of the word "reliability" in speaking of a Naturally Aspirated 700+ hp motor. You mention 1 hp/cubic inch. You mention "mild state of tune". Let's be clear here on something... Reliability in a big block that has been "properly" assembled with name brand parts is a function of valvespring life and oiling. You have a good sized oil cooler and change the oil regularly, then that takes care of the oiling if the assembly and clearances were ok. The requirements of a valvespring are DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT for a 525hp motor versus a 700+ hp motor. You can only use "so big" of a spring on a BBC head. Somewhere around 2" installed height is all you got to work with.

Regardless of whether it is a 454 or a 678 inch motor, you still have to GET the fuel charge INTO the combustion chamber. More hp requires that the valves open faster and farther and stay open longer.

An HP500 has a cam of around [email protected]" duration at .575" lift. With correct springs, it will give appx 150-200 hours of operational life. Swap it out for a Crane 741 with [email protected]" at .600" lift and you drop to 125-150 hours, but you get another 20hp.

If the 502 inch HP500 gives 520hp with the 741, then it's making over 1 hp per ci. So with the same setup, a 670 inch motor running the same cam will give you another 170 horses, won't it? Nope, a 670 inch motor running a 741 cam won't give you 690 hp. Cam is holding it back. Put big aftermarket heads on it, and run the 741, and you will still make probably around only 610hp. To get the 700 horses out of it, you need to go to a cam of around [email protected] at .660" lift. Also got bigger valves. Your spring's life just got a LOT more difficult. Got to handle larger valves, got to open them FAR more quickly, got to open them much FARTHER, and then slam them shut very fast without letting them bounce. Spring rates have just gone up which means a thicker wire on the spring. This means more heat in the spring. The open and closing rates are much faster which means more heat. The extra lift means the spring is running a wider range of full compression which means more heat, and closer to the yield point of the metal it is made from. Your valve springs will now last only 25 hours. UNLESS you go to the mega super mondo expensive springs, AND use extra long valve stems, AND use special rockers to allow the extra long stems, and special pushrods for the different geometry, and monster solid lifters to handle the loads of the valvetrain. Now you also got valvetrain flex to worry about - spring pressures are high. Rocker studs are long to work with the long stems. Now you need to consider another grand for pedestal rockers to hold the valvetrain geometry intact. Otherwise, everything will be flexing and it will cause the valvestems to wallow out the guides in a hurry and you will be replacing guides and valves (cause the chrome will wear off the stems) every 80 - 100 hours.

Warranty? Read the fine print and see if you are expected to replace parts on a short schedule to keep the warranty intact.

Decide what your criteria is for this discussion. There is indeed a difference in a 525hp motor and a 700hp motor if we are talking about a similar level of longevity.

Mcollinstn,

Refering to your item #1. If you review the original thread post it was to determine what the "best" or "ultimate" package is for $15K. I said nothing about attaining a certain level of horsepower outside of mentioning the company offering the 632 c.i. motor for $10K. I wasn't suggesting, as I have stated before numerous times in the thread, that it was indeed the right package. I was merely using it as an example and looking for others with different experiences to help elaborate on potential options. I have also stated that I was willing to sacrifice power for reliabilty (quality of components and assembly). I believe you are misunderstanding the intent of the thead, it isn't to reach a majic HP number for the money, it was to find a package that met the initial criteria. i.e. under or around 15K, reliable, turn key, idles well, etc.) Horsepower and torque numbers were not listed in the criteria. If the best package ends up to be 550 HP for the money then so be it.

Item #2: Part quality. I agree whole heartedly with your interest in not only using good quality parts but great ones. I do believe there is a fine balance between building and over building a package. If the reliability of a 700 HP motor needs a $1700.00 internally balanced crank to live then that would fall under the "reliability" section of the original criteria listed above.

You are misunderstanding my intent when I say there are companies that mass produce product that may have the capability to produce a high end package for less money. I agree with you that no one in our hobby wants a mass produced highend engine, you and I both know it won't last.

My meaning behind the mention was to suggest that a company that doesn't rely soley on building high end engines with tight margins would have the capital recourses to take one of their guys that might be way over qualified to build assembly line products, give him his own space and allow him to build higher end products. The company can use it's incredible buying power to purchase higher end components from wholesalers they currently do business with to recieve discounts on those parts. The builder, who is being paid by the company from the profits of the other product lines and works out of an area, seperate from everything else, can take his time assembling a high quality package. They don't have to make a large profit on the product because it's not keeping their doors open. The assembler can take his time and do it right because he isn't pressured to get the product out the door, again because his livelyhood doesn't depend on it. If you couple that senario with the discount on parts that they receive the company should realistically be able to produce a high quality package with high quality internals for a price that is substantially less than those who don't have the leverage this company might have. I was not, by any means, implying that we as consumers in an incredibly demanding hobby such as powerboating, would ever consider purchasing a low quality mass produced powerplant.

During your referal to the cost of labor for a quality builder I suggest only that a company that is in the financial situation the above example might be in that the labor cost of assembly would be soaked up by the production of the other product line. This is quite common in many other areas of manufacturing. A company will utilize some of the gifted labor to work on special projects, produce new products, improve existing one, etc. Their expense is just part of the payroll of the whole company.

You obviously know quite a bit more about building engines than I. I respect your knowledge and appreciate your input. I don't doubt that there is a big difference between the quality components needed for 500 vs. 700 hp. My intent here is to help others, myself included, to try and find potentially the best possible package for around the $15K mark. If that's 150 HP, than so be it but I think we are selling ourself short with the attitude that the above criteria for the thread was unrealistic.

With your knowledge of engines and what it takes to build good realable horsepower I would urge you to give us your opinion on what you would have built (including labor costs) for $15K. Please just try and stay in the parameters of the original post.

So far, TMP is the only one who has offered a package that would meet the above requirements and for that I thank him.

Your help is appreciated.

Whirly

mcollinstn, exactly my point, especially where assembly is concerned.

Whirlygig, any accountant worth his paycheck would shoot down your theory about “its just payroll” as the cost accountants will point out to you that the engine will cost more with the higher wage earners than it would with the lower wage earners.

You should be able to see this.

If you need a visual, an average engine takes some 40 hours to assemble. Now your allocation of the expensive labor and not charging more for it works out this way.

Assume a 30% union scale difference between the journeymen experienced laborer and non so experienced laborer.

So assume (someone mentioned $25/hr) $25/hr journeymen wage and $17.50/hr non top level guy.

40 * $25/hr = $1,000 labor to assemble the engine.
40 * 17.50/hr = $700 labor to assemble the engine.

$300 more in fixed cost per engine. Now multiply this by the numbers that will be required to qualify for a “mass production facility” and the losses build quickly in just one area.

Throw in the additional cost of quality parts that the companies would have to use to be able to stand behind the engines warranty and things get costlier again

Yet you think the company should eat this higher cost, not once but on a continual basis and still maintain the business payroll and overhead expenses.

Your argument about mass production for economies of scale doesn’t apply as the performance boat market is far too segmented to have a mass produced engine. Not everyone wants the exact same engine, built, accessorized and dressed the same, not to mention the constraints that each boat manufacturer places upon exhaust and engine mounts makes each engine just a bit different from one another.

The closest you are going to get to a mass produced “large” engine manufacturer is Mercury. If their prices are out of your range then your SOL with a mass production company aren’t you?

Everyone has champagne taste on a beer budget and seems to wine why people/companies don’t make things at the price they want to pay.

Good things aren’t cheap and cheap things aren’t good is the argument that everyone has stated here. Face it, accept it and move on.

Economics 101, you must be willing and able to make the purchase not just willing.

And maybe they are willing to make very little on this 632 engine and use it as their 'loss leader' and are able to brag about it. I wonder just how many they build and sell a year?