NO!!!!! But it happens to all makes and models regardless of cost. Race boats or pleasure boats it dose not matter.
Dan

I come home Sunday night, during the summer, to see what cool weekend shots have been posted. Unfortunately there have been way too many sad posts about an incident over the weekend. I don't care what boat was involved I just hope no one was hurt. Anyone who feels it can't happen to them or their brand boat is wrong.
Dan

Fair enough :) :cool:

H2OWARRIOR, you pretty much summed up what I wanted to say.

But at this point, it boils down to a basic difference in interpretation. Some people will blame stepped hulls because their handling is not familiar to average drivers and others will blame drivers because they are not familiar or experienced with the handling of stepped hulls.

Here's MY view (not that anybody asked..)

Short of total disintegration of a hull in smooth water at 35mph with no warning or provocation, 99.999% of all performance boat accidents are DRIVER ERROR.

The performance boating scene, though, is slowly racking up more and more black eyes due to everything from complaints about the noise they make, wakes they throw, high speeds in crowded areas, and how dangerous they are (which the local newspapers and media just LOVE to dwell on whenever there is an "incident"). Combine that with "real life" tragedies such as several high speed disasters in the past couple of years involving true experts at the controls, and the feeding frenzy just gets that much worse.

We all know that high speeds involve risk to life and limb. We're not stupid, for the most part. And, for the most part, the bulk of us behave rationally on the water.

We've got, though, boats available from the factory that are capable of obscene speeds. All of these machines are best suited for experienced drivers who are well acquainted with the handling characteristics of that hull, no doubt - no argument. Some of these machines behave in a manner that is NOT CONSISTENT with "street knowledge" on how to drive a performance boat. Does this make those hulls less safe? The answer is less clear than expected. The context of the question MUST be specified.

1) Does it make that hull less safe to the man who designed and performance-tested it? The answer is No.

2) Does it make that hull less safe to the man who just traded his 75mph bassboat in on it, the same man who has only owned a boat for 2 years, and in that time has learned that you trim "up for speed" and "down for turning"? I say it DOES - I say the answer is YES.

The two above illustrations are the two EXTREMES. Somewhere in the middle the answers are less black and white. The gray area is of concern to me.

Let's progress...

Assemble all of the knowledgeable step hull drivers into a room: Send them all out into different step hull boats from different mfrs and tell them to drive the paint off of them. Eventually, somebody is going to spin one or roll one. Maybe cause they have had too many beers, maybe a rogue wave in a corner, maybe an asteroid falls out of space and it's splash causes one to capsize. Might take 100 years, but let's say it finally happens. What occurs next is very telling and very important.

The guy who spins or rolls, let's hope he is fine: Now, this guy, is he going to be confused as to why it happened? Is he going to say that the boat "just suddenly went out of control for no good reason"? Of course not. He will say, Ugh, I let it get out of hand and I lost it. THE END.

Next scenario (yes I'm making these up).
Let's say the bassboat guy goes out and inside of a week, he manages to spin his step hull boat and it mows down a kid in a canoe (the guy was obviously running too closely to the canoe, wasn't paying attention or keeping a good lookout, and overreacted then he finally saw the kid).. Good chance you'll get to see interviews of the shaken driver over and over, as well as some sort of lawsuit against the manufacturer.

This is the USA. Land of the free. The land where you are FREE to sue the smile off of everything good and bring full attention to the "dangers" to humanity of a particular sport/hobby/etc..

I feel strongly that it is IRRESPONSIBLE for manufacturers to offer high performance products that have counter-intuitive handling behaviors (yet still "look" like "normal" ones) - without offering or requiring an educational course on how to properly operate that machine, and to point out its handling characteristics.

I know a LOT of dealers go to great pains to attempt to do exactly this when they sell a high performance machine. I bet that SOME individuals attempt to do the same when they sell their boat. But I see clueless fools on the water ALL THE TIME with fast boats and ZERO business being in them.

I fear for the longevity of our sport. Sure, it's great for more and more performance boats to be sold. More people enjoying it.

But accountability (and dang this is such a double-edged concept) is simply NOT going to be placed on the driver in many of these cases, because they need for him to be the VICTIM.

And the more VICTIMS we have out there behind the wheels of boats with different "handling characteristics" then the closer we are to losing our sport to regulation and insurance refusals.

I've reached the point in this thread that I don't know what it is that I think is a good answer/start/practice to implement here. I'm a guy who believes that if soebody wants to buy something, then he should be able to buy it. And if he runs it within the guidelines of the legalities of his area (lake, bay, etc) then he should be able to do it for as long and hard as he wants to. But I also believe that if something hapens to him or his boat while he is doing it, that it is part of the scope of the risks. And if he made the decision to take the risk, then he made the decision to accept what happens. Step hull or no step hull.

I see and read, though, all the time - that people are the victims and that it is the fault of the equipment or the design, etc.

While I don't agree with that, it has become the way of this population. And we can't ignore it. And so do we close a blind eye to it and say that some of our hulls are still SAFE even when it is obvious that it takes a different skill set than one will develop normally? Or do we admit that we have a bit of a "tiger in disguise" that needs to be treated in the correct manner?

Yes, I'm rambling. I don't apologize for it, cause I still see the issue as a problem and a definite "straw" that contributes to the "breaking of the camel's back"...

Steps - notched transoms - pads all came along about the same time as light weight materials? Foam coring , light weight lamination schedules , vaccum bagging? BH

I'll take some of that Action !!!!
25' Active Thunder HP500.
70mph U turn. Bring your Skater, and your jock strap.
:cool:

70? Why not 100? A 36 Skater will turn like a little tunnel boat provided it's properly set. Spent a week at Lake X learning how to do it.

I was looking out for your best interest. I'd like for you to survive long enough to buy me a Captain n Coke after I win the bet and we get back to the dock. ;)

Thanks Gordo. At least someone is looking out for me.

500 on the Vee ..no way a cat can make as sharp a turn as a vee..Unless its a f1

F1's are tunnels. Tunnels will certainly turn.

Cats will turn better than a vee at high speeds in rough water (at least I've never been in a vee that will turn like a 42MTI or Spectre36 at 110 in 3 footers, nor have I ever seen video of a vee that will turn like that in heavy water). Be careful to specify the parameters of your bet.

If you go into a turn, chop the throttles for an instant to set the boat it will turn like an F1 boat. I'm not talking at 60 ot 70 mph, I'm talking 100+ mph. Been there done it.

Skaters also do something most other cats don't in a turn, anyone?

Well there were no "parameters mentioned " so Ill stand with my statement that a vee will turn "SHARPER"
ie: tighter radius than a cat !

Why do you have a pic. of Bobs 28 that stufed. I did not rec in a turn.

The only reason it was posted was to show my point that any boat regardless of make can come apart when subjected to severe forces. This is the link to the complete story for that picture if anyone is interested. http://www.midwestconnection.com/bwo...k_incident.htm

It was caused by a stuff and not a turn. No one was seriously hurt or I wouldn't have posted it.
Dan

Any thing can brake .

Hmm, didn't realize you were out on the water. According to Bob the boat launched, tripped, stuffed. But what would he know, he was only driving. The boat was also trimmed to the moon running against the Scarab and they didn't tuck it in when the approaced the wake. Again, this was from the people that were in the boat.

Actually they were squeezing everything they had out of the boat trying to outrun the Scarab. Don't make it sound like they were taking a lazy ride up the river.

Re: PUTZ!
 

Actually Pepe is a living legend, Jo is a legend in the making.:D How in the world did they ever get drug into this thread.:rolleyes:

Brian

Mr. Velocity
 

Skaters Lean into the turn, not out or away.

what do I win, what do I win?

Wish you would leave this thread. You've been bashing Velocity for a long time. Seems you like to hold a grudge for a long time.

From: Mike Carter ([email protected])
Subject: Re: Ultimate F1 & F2 Boats?

View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.boats.racing.power
Date: 1998/07/15

Gary I forgot one important thing. When I was shopping for my boat last year I dropped in to Velocity even called in advance. When I got there I was almost ignored by the Sales Mngr. the so called tour lasted only 15min and
in the office Steve Stepp did not introduce himself. I guess they figured I was not really going to buy a boat. But I made my decision on the looks of there facility and there hospitality. I also went to Fountain and they were
totally gracious (meet Reggie) but the cost of the 27' fever stopped me and I toured the Wellcraft plant 4 times last year and was totally impressed with there facility and being able to call them and ask questions. Even though I'm a "newbie" at performance boats I've been told by a current 29' Fountain owner and a racer that my 26' Scarab is a great handling and strong
boat so I figure I made a pretty good buying decision. See ya, Mike Carter

When did Teague cross you, this is what you used to say about him. Now his is scum and doesn't know how to build an engine?

From: Mike Carter ([email protected])
Subject: Re: Ultimate F1 & F2 Boats?

Newsgroups: rec.boats.racing.power
Date: 1998/07/16

I too would LOVE to see the Smith shop. I used to live in L.A. and have been by the Teague shop. NICE!!!

Seems Mike has learned quite a lot in 5 years... :D :D

Maybe about racing too.


From: Scarab Mike ([email protected])
Subject: E class Velocity PREP time
Newsgroups: rec.boats.racing.power
Date: 1999/07/05

Not only does Velocity have special parking (so they think) the E class boat has special after the race PREP time !!!! Why does it take 1 hour to get to the cranes to weigh the boat!!!
Oh I saw the E class Velocity get craned in at 4403 lbs!!! I thought the min. weight for E class was 4500!!!! What were you guys doing for a hour after the race adding weight!!!! You freakin' cheaters!!!! I also now
presume that the weight slip that Stepp provided after the Ft. Myers races saying the boat and trailer weight was 5800 lbs was a lie too.

CHEAT LIE CHEAT LIE CHEAT LIE CHEAT LIE CHEAT LIE CHEAT LIE CHEAT LIE

--
Mike Carter
[email protected]

Maybe a little to much time on my hands :D

Hmm, does Merc dyno everything that goes out the door? Does GM? No. Once you have developed a package you can build it over and over again. Teague pretty much sticks to what he knows works and builds the engines that way. Don't know if he has a dyno now but I'm sure he has access to one. It's not a reason to slam him like you do in other threads. If you build a lot of 1 off motors I can see the need for a dyno since you really don't know what's going out the door.

Teage wanted CRE, Eikert did not. go figure :rolleyes:

And yes I have a pair of Teague engines, my next engines will be from Express Marine. Oh no, he doesn't have a dyno either.

Hey!
Leave Nasty Midget out of this.
I still have nightmares from that little bastardd....

Yea I came across all the old Bob Bull stuff and everyone calling him a POS and a CHEATER. Funny how he is now running the show.
Remember USER192 or what ever the number was. What a joke.

Spoke with Mark today as a matter of fact. We stay in touch, he is into his Porsches and V-Rods. He also tied the knot.

Hi Mike,

Yea, I dropped out of the performance boat stuff about a year and a half ago. Sold the 28 and tied the knot (not related, the wife wanted me to keep it but I needed to cash).

When I get back into performance boats I'll be looking hard at the Concepts. I love the look and I'm looking for more than a simple "go fast" in my next boat. Either that or a Formula 370SS with some big motors (ultimate sleeper)

I heard about your accident and followed it on the forum. Glad to see your back at it and feisty as ever :)

BTW, I always wear a helmet and ride like everyone's out to run me over.... :rolleyes:

As for this thread, Same Sh!t, Different Day :D

No need to try to defend construction or talk about which boat's stronger, faster or turns better because everyone already has their opinions and we all know opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one!

Back to the topic
 

Why is it that everyone always has something bad to say about Velocity? Like someone else said, opinions are like a$$holes! Proof is that most stepped bottom boats have spun out, with both pro and amateur drivers, when you have very little hull in the water it makes the boat very flighty, and if you don't slow down substantially and pull the drives in and suck the boat down in the water enough, they are gonna spin! As far as "traditional" V hulls not being as fast, anyone remember a little boat manufacturer that returned to racing about 5-6 years ago and his boat was so fast that he had to add so much weight that the boat couldn't be competative anymore......................SUTPHEN! Look at the first "Muscle Racing" boat, 33 Powerplay(no steps). Stepped hulls have come a long way over the years, but they still need more work. If you hate Velocity, that is fine, don't bring in the build and quality of them, I have seen every kind of boat come apart under all kinds of conditions. Obviously, I am a Velocity fan, cause I haven't found a boat in any particular size class that is as fast and as easy to drive, PERIOD. Just my 2cents

I don't know about "tucking the drives" while turning. I leave the drives about neutral or maybe a little positive trim on our stepped Gun and have never had a problem.

I would also like to know how many people have actually spun their Stepped V's in a pleasure situation. I personally don't know anybody. The only boat I have spun was the last cat I owned.

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...ight=winnebago

see post #9

True. Wasn't there at the time. Just heard the story from several people. I know the guy. He is pretty aggresive and has lots of mula.

If you would have said "Ford and Dodges" I would have agreed with you.:D :D

Hey that "Potato Chip" Velocity held it's own against the World Champion Activator today in that "little lake" race in St. Cloud. It was actually the best side by side racing all day. That other World Champion F1 Fountain finally lost a race, but their were some other boats in its class today :rolleyes:

Hey Mike,
Get over the Velocity & Fountain thing we all know you have your own reasons for thinking the way you do just like all of the rest of us think and have opinions,we just dont continue to bash them every time we think we could get away with it,just go fishin and enjoy life,after all that is what it is all about,you of all people should know that,Anyway lets all get over the this is and that is better B,S Because we all know they can break or delaminate when abused.PERIOD.

Yea, what HYPER said. Enjoy the Concept and get over the Steve thing. :) :cool:

I have owned three step hull boats and have never "spun" or have had any negative handling problems with any of them period. I have however been in a traditional V 29ft. and completely out of control due to massive chine walk. Some boat mfg. simply make a better handling boat than others regardless of step or no step. Way to many other factors that make a hull safe or not safe.

The stages of performance boat knowledge........

Stage I...... Newbie on the prowl for a boat......... basically clueless and subject to buying boat #1 from the first salesman he (or she) meets......especially if the salesman is an "experienced racer" (i.e...served on a pit crew for a 56 mph offshore boat in 1972)

Stage II...... Post Newbie on the prowl for boat #2..... Has managed to chine walk and porpoise his way in boat #1 above to local watering holes where he is immediately cornered by the loudest talkers at the bar (owners of stepped boats built by "Name" builders).....and told what he has done wrong. (Something which they are ill suited to address, given that they have 11 more hours of high speed boating experience than the newbie himself...and advanced cases of Cirossis of the liver)

Stage III...... Post Newbie...now proud owner of boat #2....... makes headlines as he barrel rolls on a ferry wake that he "didn't see" . He emerges unscathed, but 16 year old female passenger is tossed into a bridge abuttment and
scarred for life....... Boat driver is quoted as saying...."Everything was great and then I realised I was under water"......

Stage IV...... Realizing that the boat in the accident had steps....... local bar patrons climb all over each other to attend the insurance auction where the now separated hull and deck bring a fraction of the list price....

Stage V...... Rechristened "The Phoenix"...the hull in IV above stuffs on a roller in Jones Beach inlet during an incoming tide..... Witnesses claim that the "bottom seemed to fall out" right before the boat disappeared from view. The owner stated ...."Everything was great and then I realised I was under water"...... The next day he files suit against the boat builder, the outdrive manufacturer, the trailer builder, and his brother in law who "built the motors" out of hardware stolen from a local marina during the previous winter.

Stage VI....... Armed with the settlement money the newly wealthy bottom feeder purchases a multicolored step bottom boat....... and enters his first Poker Run...which ends tragically after he falls between the 6 blade propeller equipped drives while attempting to get closer to the sound of his own exhaust.

T2x..............Trying to make some sense of it all for ya:p

Now that's the best thing I've read today!!!

ROTFLMAO :D :D :D :D

The Stages of Troutly's Law Enforcement Career.....

Stage I..........Was force fed Krispy Kreme until his ability to distinguish sweetness forever departed.

Stage II.....immediately afterward he was given "Blond recognition training" which allows him to single out and pull over attractive young ladies while clueless testosterone crazed single 18-21 year old males whiz recklessly by in various Japanese pocket rocket sedans.

Stage III....Learned "What's in the Bag"

Stage IV....... Realizes that all he can see through those mirrored sunglasses was his own eyes.

Stage V....... After various fruitless "sensitivity training" sessions...realized that the purpose of a night stick is to get someone's attention.

Stage VI ...Finally admits that he became a policeman because a girl he had a crush on at band camp told him he looked good in a uniform.

T2x.....trying to make some sense out of it all for ya:p