|
reSEARCHED ho'S
1 Attachment(s)
TOO BAD FELLOW BOATERS ALL THE 502 BLOCKS USED TO HAVE FORGED PARTS..NOT ANY MORE.. WITH THE 496 NON HO AND HO'S THEY HAVE NODULAR STEEL CRANKS WHICH HAVE 41% LESS TENSILE STRENGTH THAN A FORGED CRANK....THAT IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE...THANKS TROUTLY FOR LETTING ME KNOW THIS...IT'S WAY WORTH GOING TO "BLUE" THE 10K EXTRA FOR A 500EFI AND OF COURSE THE 525'S ARE THE ONLY WAY TO GO ....THE 496 IS A GM ENGINE OFF THE LINE..THE HP SERIES ARE HAND MADE...NO WAY WOULD I PUT A HO IN A 35' OR 42' FOUNTAIN....AND THEN YOU HAVE THE ISSUE OF NON FORGED PISTONS...THESE ARE GREAT ENGINES FOR MID PERFORMANCE BUT NOT HP STUFF...GUESS A LOT DEPENDS ON HOW HARD YOU PUSH IT...SO IT'S NOT A SUBJECTIVE ANALYSIS...BUT AS ALWAYS AN INFORMED CONSUMER IS THE BEST CUSTOMER....
put a blower on a 496 and expect it to last??? .... not in a million years... A HO MIGHT BE NICE IN A RUNABOUT IN MY OPINION...BUT NOT AN OFFSHORE...ONCE AGAIN IN MY OPINION 525 EFI HP525 EFI - 525 HP Specifications HP: 525 kW: 410 Full Throttle RPM Range: 4800-5200 Displacement Liter/CID: 8.2/502 Bore & Stroke (in): 4.47/4.00 Bore & Stroke (mm): 114/102 Compression Ratio: 8.75:1 Cylinders: V-8 Alternator Amp: 65 Alternator Watt: 917 Fuel System: MPI Ignition System: PCM 038 distributorless Fuel Requirements: 87 Posted Octane (R+M)/2, (92 RON) International Transmission: (Six) w/Huber 600 Series Drive Options: Bravo One XR, Bravo One XR w/ITS, Bravo One XR Sport Master (Standard or Short), and Bravo One XR Sport Master (Standard or Short) w/ITS. Dry-Sump Six w/Huber 600 Length (in/mm): 39.5/1003 Width (in/mm): 34/864 Height (in/mm): 24/610 Weight (lbs / kg): 1201/545 Warranty: 1-Year Ltd. for Recreational Boating/3-Year Ltd. Corrosion SmartCraft: Yes Features & Benefits Precision CNC machined 502 C.I.D. cast iron cylinder block. Custom Edelbrock aluminum cylinder heads, designed exclusively for Mercury Racing, enhance torque and overall performance. Advanced, factory installed closed-cooling system features five-year coolant for reduced maintenance and increased corrosion protection. The SmartCraft PCM 038 microprocessor optimizes fuel control for each cylinder independently, enhancing engine running quality and performance. Powerful 65-amp/917-watt alternator provides dependable starting and additional power for operating electrical accessories. Forged 4340 steel, fully machined and shot-peened Mercury Racing connecting rods. Forged aluminum pistons, designed by Mercury Racing, for maximum strength and durability. Multiport fuel injection system incorporates a high-flow throttle body and flame arrestor developed exclusively by Mercury Racing. Water-cooled and insulated fuel system helps keep fuel temperatures down and greatly reduces potential for vapor lock with today's fuels. A thermostatically-controlled, high-capacity oil cooler raises engine oil temperatures faster and keeps them more consistent. A hydraulic roller camshaft and an idle air valve, located at the rear of the intake plenum, work in concert to improve engine idle quality. Comes standard with 1.26:1, 1.35: or 1.50:1 gear ratio Bravo One XR drive in either right-hand or left-hand rotation. Dual-water pickup and low-water pickup gearcase housings available for standard Bravo One XR drives. Bravo One XR Sport Master, Bravo One XR Short Sport Master and Dry-Sump Six drive options available. The Bravo One XR Sport Master gearcase (Std. and Short), available on selected Bravo One XR drives, reduces drag for enhanced overall boat performance in select applications. Integrated Transom System (ITS) available with Bravo One XR and Bravo One XR Sport Master drive options. New engine oil drain line enhances ease of changing oil. Power steering resevoir mounted on front of the engine for easy access. IS THE CRANK FORGED FOR SURE? ...OH AND NOBODY COULD EXPLAIN WHY THE 42' FOUNTAIN IN PB DID 120 MPH ON T-1100 COBRA'S AND THE 42' WITH 1050 STERLINGS DID 160 MPH ON THE SPEED RUN :) ...ALL I CARE ABOUT IS WHAT I CAN BUY AND WHAT IT WILL DO....I CAN STRAP A COUPLE 1100 HP ENGINES TO A PIECE OF PLYWOOD AND DO 200 MPH...ON A FLATBOTTOM BOAT OR HYDRO...YES IT MATTERS....INSPECTION...FROM STEM TO STREN..SANCTION ...RUN AND THEN PUBLISH EVERYTHING....OK? NIT WITS :D |
HP500 has never been a "hand assembled" engine. Rotating assembly is assembled by GM hands and never touched again at Merc.
525EFI actually IS assembled at Merc. And WHY are you comparing 496's with 502's? They are NOT EVEN CLOSE to the same motor. A 496 is a 454 bore longstroker motor. A 502 is a big bore siamese std stroke motor. |
..just because of the way they are being marketed is all..
|
The 42 fountain that broke the record had 1300's, not 1050's.
Not to mention it was a race boat, you can not compare that boat to a pleasure 42 fountain. Weight, setup, and bottom design go a long way. It takes many days for race teams to set their boats up. Your not just dropping big motors in a boat, turning the key and seeing what it will do. |
And the boat is a cut down 42, no swim platform like most of their race boats.
|
1 Attachment(s)
I bought this 502 in Jan 04 for 6500 7 hrs on the ECM
Biggus instructed me to stick with the 502 block |
was the OL a raceboat setup?
|
Originally posted by mcollinstn HP500 has never been a "hand assembled" engine. Rotating assembly is assembled by GM hands and never touched again at Merc. And why are there no Mercury people (from the factory, not a dealer and or mechanic) that will answer this kind of question. |
Originally posted by LPA2106 was the OL a raceboat setup? |
525EFI is assembled from pieces at Merc Racing. Gets the cool Merc Racing rods, too.
The following information was passed on to me at a big Merc executive function that my friend's band played. I got to speak to a bunch of Merc HP guys and they told me (they being a group of three HP guys and the bigwig of Merc/QS accessory division - he didn't offer input in the HP question) The HP500 has traditionally been sourced as a completed shortblock from GM. But that the HP525 is completely a Merc HP motor from parts (this was the same year that the 525EFI was introduced). While I haven't yet been to the Merc HP factory (like I was invited to do) this is the info that was passed on to me by Merc HP execs (I got their cards in a drawer somewhere). Yes, Bulldogs and all blower motors are/were hand fitted. I've been promised the tour at Merc HP and plan to take them up on it, but am at the mercy of my friend to make it happen cause it was really HIM they were begging to come to the factory, and extending the offer to me (as long as I am with my friend, is my guess). If anybody has better info than mine, feel free to correct me. i am only going on what Merc HP guys told me. They weren't the guys on the assembly floor (they were bigger wigs) so they may have been a little off on their info.. |
LPA
The OL record boat was not a race boat, but it was "close". It was a lightweight epoxy pleasureboat with no forward cabin. |
I would be more inclined to believe the 500HP story while GM still produces the engine for its consumption. Since GM is not using the engines anymore, who is producing the engines ? And why would the 500 and the 525 be any different since they are the same engine sans a few head, cam and exhaust changes ?
I do not know what is actually happening at Merc and am pissed that no one from the Merc is here to answer this. It does however make sense that a big exec. from Merc would try and tell someone that the 525 was a much better engine.......since it is not much more than a 500HP and carries a much higher price. Not that gouging boaters would be something that Mercury would be involved in:rolleyes: |
I've talked with people who actually did the work at Mercury Racing. While we did not discuss the 525, they did tell me that the HP500 is virtually the same short block as the 502efiMag. When the engine shows up at Mercury Racing, they remove the oil pan, weld the oil pump sump pickup, and replace the oil pan.
So much for "custom hand built race engines". This didn't come from any Execs, advertising, or friend of a friend, but from some that were actually there. As for the 496, I can't speak for all of them out there, but I personally have ran the SNOT out of a number of GM Vortec 496 HP-3's, and have worked closely with quite a few others that I haven't driven or throttled, and an not aware of a crank breaking. |
that's my point..you can't seem to get any useful comparative info at MM anymore...and seems like smoke and mirrors and some blue paint maybe and then $$$$$$$$
I want to know how the 496 Ho compares to the 502 mag in service life and utility since it seems that is waht it replaced basically right? or am I missing the boat? |
Originally posted by LPA2106 that's my point..you can't seem to get any useful comparative info at MM anymore...and seems like smoke and mirrors and some blue paint maybe and then $$$$$$$$ I want to know how the 496 Ho compares to the 502 mag in service life and utility since it seems that is waht it replaced basically right? or am I missing the boat? |
...you guys know I am not saying or doing all this because I am buying a boat..it's an educational process..and if and when I have the right amount of money/credit I will be real well informed..
|
1 Attachment(s)
Hey Troutly..thanks for the info that the 496's both have Hypereutectic pistons
check out this site...says it all I think...no need to re-cap http://www.flatlanderracing.com/kb_hyper.html ..makes ya think twice though eh? aren't 496's strokers/ This company has made pistons for 40 yrs..and says not to use em in strokers...blown engines etc...cast..not forged....check out the link.. other stuff I read is in concurrence with this.. |
check this out Troutly
http://www.taperformance.com/hyperteu.htm says their experience with the 496's pistons is that they are hard and brittle..read this.. you may think I am a nut...but read this...and tell me to believe what I see in ads or hear around the marinas...you gotta do your homework baby....now I know why Lip Ship uses Zuls...I looked at how they build and what they use..top drawer and decent prices too... ALL ZUL ENGINES FEATURE... – Dart Engine Blocks – 4340 forged steel crankshaft – Oliver Billet connecting rods – 200 wall wrist pins – J&E Forged silicone aluminum pistons – Keith Eickert aluminum oil pans – Stref's Race Oil Pans – High volume oil pump – Internally balanced – Complete wire harness – Die cast aluminum valve covers – Complete sea water cooling system – High torque starter – Billet remote oil filter mount – 90 amp alternator – Heavy duty oil coolers – Electronic ignition system – 8mm spark plug wires – Rollerized rocker arms a pair of 650's or 700's in a 38' Gun is all I need... TYPE II – 700 hp+ @ 5800 rpm – 572 cubic inch displacement – Dart Pro 1 Ported Heads – Dart Single Plain Manifold – 9.5 to 1 compression ratio – 91+ octane fuel requirement – Roller Lifter Camshaft – 1050 4-barrel carb ...what a pipedream to think I could be happy with less...I am out of here.. |
check this out Troutly..they talk about groove pound out in these pistons...regualr cast pistons may be more reliable than these alloys...and forged is the answer..period..
http://www.jjsales.com/option2.htm |
my findings...496 and a HO is a HO...no matter how you slice it
nice power for moderate applications....if you drop a couple in a 28' boat and take it moderately easy and not a lot of top end time...a bargain...run the mcpissers out of em and don't be surprised when they....in a 35' maybe? 42' maybe...everybody i talked to who knows anything at work about hi-perf applications felt that marine use is severe at times and forged crank, pistons and rods are a good investment..pay now or pay later ... and forged pistons are about $500 each the 496 pistons are about $ 300 ea.... why bother? because as soon as you say forged and 525efi.$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ why? the part don't justify it...make a good production engine using good parts..possible? |
kinda glad i have the 502mpi over the 496s. LPA your ok in my book, just buy a boat soon please
|
well after all this research and seeing a boat in a tree on a weekly basis I am rethinking things if you know what I mean?
...so for me 496's won't work...gotta go at least 525's and that's like what an extra 60k? and still not enough power for the buck...what? 500Hp??? ....and now i have Cigaretteitis....when all is said and the dough is there it will probably be a 38' Gun with 525's..not 575's after talking to a few custom builders.. ...I am taking a "shine to" Zuls...maybe a pair of 600 ZULLs? |
Originally posted by LPA2106 ...you guys know I am not saying or doing all this because I am buying a boat..it's an educational process.. IIRC, it wasn't more than a month or so ago that you were singing the praises of brother Reggie, inventor of the stepped hull, and were ready to write a check for a 42' Executioner. Or was it 35'? Then it was bubble analysis with Mister X, the infamous anonymous marine engineer. Somewhere in here was an unrigged and overpriced 41' Apache. Then after reading a test in Powerboat, you decided that a 42 Tiger was the only stepped hull boat with a proper design. I think there was something about the company boat about this time, a non-stepped 38' Scarab, of which you have no pictures (company boat??? I've heard of company cars, trucks, even planes, but never boats - but I digress...), . Still not sure what the point of that story was supposed to be. Now you're off creating a forged-not-cast love nest with Minnesota's finest donut-chaser. I gotta tell ya, this is some genuinely entertaining material. OSO hasn't had this sort of entertainment in a long time. :D Keep up the creative work! (My fearless prediction - LPGA buys a boat about the same time Audiofn and Too Old splash their respective trailer queens :D ) |
Originally posted by Troutly Dude.....that is harsh!!!! :eek: :crazy: Hey, I'm especially proud that I managed to bust balls on you, Audiofn, and Too Old all in one post. Now if I only could've gotten the 'Foul in there somewhere, I'd have hit the Grand Slam! Did you get the Formula in the water yet? I thought you were planning to do some prop testing, see if you could tweak another couple of MPH out of her. Too damn cold to do anything here in Michigan - that move to Florida is sounding better all the time! |
HP500 EFI - 500 HP
These have the "good Parts" about 10k more per engine than a HO but well worth it....Reggie and others said this engine is bullett pruff... Specifications HP: 500 kW: 390 Full Throttle RPM Range: 4800-5200 Displacement Liter/CID: 8.2/502 Bore & Stroke (in): 4.47 x 4.00 Bore & Stroke (mm): 114 x 102 Compression Ratio: 8.75:1 Cylinder/Configuration: V-8 Alternator Amp: 60 Alternator Watt: 847 Fuel System: MPI Ignition System: Digital Fuel Requirements: 87 Posted Octane (R+M)/2 (92 RON) International Transmission: (Six) w/Huber 600 Series Drive Unit: Bravo One XR, Bravo One XR w/ITS, Bravo One XR Sport Master (Standard or Short), and Bravo One XR Sport Master (Standard or Short) w/ITS. Dry-Sump Six w/Huber 600 Drive/Gear Ratios: Bravo One XR/Bravo One XR Sport Master - 1.26/1.35/1.5:1 Length (in/mm): 39/991 Width (in/mm): 34/857 Height (in/mm): 22/560 Weight (lbs / kg): 1113/505 Warranty: 1-Year Ltd. for Recreational Boating/3-Year Ltd. Corrosion CARB Star Rating: 3 Features & Benefits Precision CNC machined 502 C.I.D. cast iron cylinder block. Forged 4340 steel, fully machined and shot-peened Mercury Racing connecting rods. Forged aluminum pistons, designed by Mercury Racing, for maximum strength and durability. MEFI 3 Electronic Control Module digital ignition system features advanced electronics for more precise fuel and spark control along with better top-end throttle response. Multiport fuel injection system incorporates a high-flow throttle body and tuned intake manifold developed exclusively by Mercury Racing. A thermostatically-controlled, high-capacity oil cooler raises engine oil temperatures faster and keeps them more consistent. The oil thermostat and a Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) valve work together to reduce the buildup of condensation in the oil. The PCV valve also improves engine idle. A hydraulic roller camshaft, which improves low-end torque, offers higher level of performance and aids fuel economy. A one-piece serpentine belt system requires less horsepower to drive engine accessories. Comes standard with 1.26:1, 1.35: or 1.50:1 gear ratio Bravo One XR drive in either right-hand or left-hand rotation. Dual-water pickup and low-water pickup gearcase housings available for standard Bravo One XR drives. Bravo One XR Sport Master, Bravo One XR Short Sport Master and Dry-Sump Six drive options available. The Bravo One XR Sport Master gearcase (Std. and Short), available on selected Bravo One XR drives, reduces drag for enhanced overall boat performance in select applications. Integrated Transom System (ITS) available with Bravo One XR and Bravo One XR Sport Master drive options. New engine oil drain line enhances ease of changing oil. |
LPA2106
Thought I would weigh in on this anti-496 expose of yours. McCollinstn is right, the HP500 is not hand built, but is a nice piece of GM high performance workmanship. You need to realize the 496 was not originally developed for marine or high performance work. Considering that they were designed originally as a low rpm high torque truck motor they are doing quite well in marine use. Of the thousands out there I have seen or heard of no crank failures and most of the hypereutectic piston problems have just come from mass production and are small in number. The factory cast nodular crank is quite a piece, it replaced the original forged unit because its just as strong due to rolled fillets, micro-alloy structure, fully counter weighted knife edge throws. This ain't your Uncle Bills cast crank! The original forged crank was a 1038 micro-alloy not a 4140 or 4130 as you might suppose. The cast crank has been tested by several builders in the industry up to 550HP levels with no failures reported. The only piston failures I have heard about in any marine use came from boosting applications and were subjected to obvious detonation problems. The 496 block is a very strong piece with excellent buildup possibilities. The 18 head bolts per cylinder give excellent clamping force to the heads and will practically eliminate blown head gaskets. The main reason the 502 engines have such a good reputation in the market that they have so many after market parts available to build their reputations. We have just now come on to the market with 496 aftermarket aluminum heads, pistons, cams, manifolds and such that will improve the outputs of the 496 so much, that I think the 496 engine will have its own high performance offshore reputation and will slowly equal and surpass the 502 engine family as the better offshore motor! We have been working with the 496 for two years now, testing an building these motors. I can tell you from lots of expierence that 496 engines make more torque per cubic inch and per horsepower than the HP500 and HP525 engines! Torque is the workhorse that gets and keeps boats going! We are going to release some new signature 496 engines this summer that will run circles around the HP500 and will outperform the HP525's quite handsomely with great naturally aspirated longevity and reliability that offshore boaters expect from their motors and with a pricetag that won't choke the goat! Remember neccessity is the mother of invention and the performance boating aftermarket is the built on innovation and application. Just some thoughts and facts in defense of the "poor" new 496. Ray @ raylar;) |
And after buying these inexpensive engines you will only have to change your Amsoil once a year:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :crazy:
I'm sure the Amsoil and filter will not mind all the impurities caused by HP engines the black gasoline laden sludge will be just fine:eek: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: |
THANK YOU RAYLAR !!! :eureka: :eureka: :eureka:
10 K more per motor is well worth it,, ??? what planet did you say your species is from ???... Yah, o.k. 10 grand for 45 hp more.. you could probably do two entire rebuilds and some performance upgrades to get you well over the 470 H.P. your highly regarded 500EFI has. .. |
well these are NEW engines and the previous engines with some of these parts did not fair well....so would you put a 496 HO in a 42'er and feel good about it or go 500 efi? or Sterling or Zul?
..and I am not bashing just presenting factual experiences of other comanies with these parts |
http://www.boattest.com/engine-test-...fo.aspx?ID=104
maybe worth a second look? so you get 3 yrs warranty? |
you just gave a wide range of motors. Of course if money was not a factor I would go with the Zul or Sterling, but that would end up costing more. The 500efi's are good motors, but the 525's were to replace them. The 496 for 10k less seems like a very good deal, however something tells me after you start adding parts to that motor to match a 500 or 525, the 3 year warranty will no longer be good.
|
according to Raylar a set of heads alone added to the H.O. will already put you beyond the 500 EFI in H.P. and torque.. for A LOT LESS than 10 grand,,, and if it makes you feel any better, I'll buy you can of merc. blue spray paint.. :D :D
P.S. if I had the cash for Zul's or Sterlings why even bother mentioning the H.O. ?? it certainly is not an option for a 42 footer,, unles you wanna run around WFO @ 60 mph.. |
I'm going to weigh in here. If the 496 is all you can afford to put in a 42 then go for it!
The 496 is not all that bad of a motor. In fact with the closed cooling and other features I believe it is a much better motor than the 502 ever was. Yes, there have been failures in the motors but not anymore than the 502's. As far as the Blue motors go, If I got a good enough deal on 500's then I would pony up. Otherwise, I am having a custom motor built. Pfaff, Teague, Zul etc. It all depends on what you want and what you can afford. |
makes sense Mirageman...Ho's if that is what fits your needs and for anything above and beyond that then go see Pfaff...Teague...Zul...Sterling...Cobra...
you don't get enough bang for the buck for "blue" ... ...500efi at 10k over HO's may not be a good spend either... 502 mag's were bullett proof and a thing of the past price-wise anyways...my opinion ...just wanted to show that 496's have some great features but I was gonna buy them and may later add a blower and many sources said not to do that.... |
Scott
Sorry your stuck with Amsiol oil and filters, Mobile one and the AC -PF series glass media filters work just fine for us. Raylar:D :D :D :D |
Forged 4340 steel, fully machined and shot-peened Mercury Racing connecting rods. Forged aluminum pistons, designed by Mercury Racing, for maximum strength and durability. 1. I didn't know Mercury ever had their own "Mercury Racing connecting rods". Are you sure these are not a GM rod? 2. So, Mercury Racing designed special piston, I assume just for Mercury Racing. Does J&E know about this? LPA, Not sure where you got the info from, but if you want to see how the 496 handles higher horsepower or how it would stand up to possible upgrades, look at all the teams that ran the GM Vortec HP-3. Like I said before, we ran the SNOT out of those things! And now, the new HP-3's are running close to 530HP<or more?> and running very well. Also, Don't think the Mercury 525's didn't have their problems last season. |
Gordo, not sure whose forging the Merc rod is based on, but it has Merc Racing machined into the beams and they are very very pretty.
They began appearing first in 575SCi's and 525efi's. I'm hearing people say now that they are showing up in 500efi's too, although I've not had any HP500's apart that weren't carbed, and they didn't have em. |
I came to see the ho's.:D
|
I saw! :D
|
You want to get in my box! :eek:
Okay. :p |
| All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:38 AM. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.