Re: Rumor has it that the Fed's shut down Nat'l Marine
 

God - I feel awful for you guys. I lost some money due to a very similar situation a few years ago in Syracuse. I really wish everyone luck in getting their boats/money/etc. back.

Re: is it true national marine !
 

You all know that I bought my last Cigarette from Bill and Blume at National's South Florida store......I have to say that both of these guys were very good to deal with...they gave me a fair trade in allowance on my Top Gun...which thankfully....I owned outright......and on top of this they gave me a good deal on the Gladiator..I was their first Cigarette customer down here.....I did have some problems with the boat initially...but Cigarette took care of these....and although I did have some problems getting my phone calls returned at National....I realize that I was not their only customer....I am sorry to hear this as I like Bill and Blume both....In fact everyone that I met at the Florida store were very nice people......I am not trying to minimize the problems others are having right now....but rather talking about the people there in general....I hate to see this happen.......... Good intentions.........

Re: is it true national marine !
 

I'll do the same...

Re: is it true national marine !
 

This Is Just Another One Post Wonder Who Is Caught Up In This Mess I Bought A 38 Cig In March Traded A Nice Boat.traded Boat Never Been Pd Off Sold To Another Dealer Who Luckily Never Gave This Crook The Check Now I Have A Cig That Has Two Liens And One Driver Everybody Can Talk About Rumor When There Are Some Of Us Who Are Living It!hope Not To Many Others Have A 200000. Note And No Title After You Put 100000 Down

Re: is it true national marine !
 

I bought my boat from NM three years ago. There were some very bad things going on then. I was able to get my boat deal done. There were some shady things going on that I have disscussed with people privately. This is a very bad situation that has been covered up for a long time. I hope that the people that have outstanding boat dealings get your deals done. Hopefully things can be brought out to the open now and people can get help.

Good Luck

David

Re: Rumor has it that the Fed's shut down Nat'l Marine
 

Scott I don't want to rain on your parade but something to keep in mind. If there is a bankruptcy action (voluntary or involuntary) the court can reverse any transaction that took place for up to 60 days prior to the filing. IE the judge could make your bank give the money bank. I think that is slim in this case but I would feel better if it had been paid off 90 days ago.

PS this isn't ment to be a slam toward national or anyone else. just trying to educate people as to what can happen when these deals go south.

Re: is it true national marine !
 

TO THOSE WHO NEED THE HELP.
I first will say that it is unfortunate for National that bad things are happening. I personally hate to see anything like this happen to a business who has made so many people happy with a hobby that we all enjoy. THAT BEING SAID: (Steve, please do not pull this, it could be a very valuable service to those on this board).

To those still responsible for an asset no longer in there custody, care, or possession, there is help.

Capital Solutions Industries (CSI) has an operations network across the country to assist Lenders in re-attaining assets that have fallen into the hands of those who may not have legal rights of possession and/or intentions to return said asset.

These services follow strict standards and all Federal, State, and Local Laws (i.e. no breaking and entering or leg breaking).

This is an efficient and legal means to attain an asset.

The reason I am posting is that as days go by I am confident we will all hear talk of things getting ugly and persons taking measures to get money or assets back. CSI can and will find a means of loss mitigation agreeable to Owner, Debtor and Law Enforcement agencies.

To submit a claim call 949-361-8776 or Fax information to 949-361-8795

In the meantime, lets all wish the best for those at National Marine and all others directly concerned.

Re: is it true national marine !
 

Just got off the phone with Bob (Otis311) he is going to see a judge tomorrow to try and reclaim his boat. Off duty police at gate, nothing gets in or out. A class action lawsuit will be filed tomorrow on behalf of creditors. Bob says that FBI Has been there on several occasions and they are about to seize everything and arrest people. I don't post much especially about subjects with so much "he said, she said" but Bob is a close friend and the thought of what he is going through is sickening. Through no fault of his own, He will wind up with about 360k in loans and no boat to show for it. He may get his Harley back but he will be paying twice for it. No Top Gun ;but the loan; a Tiger possibly with no motors.... Hows that for rumors??

Re: is it true national marine !
 

I feel absolutely awful for all those involved. I think IDR's post (unfortunately) may be valuable information for some.

Re: is it true national marine !
 

Are banks and people that dumb? If I were to go buy a boat that required me to establish a bank loan, chances are the bank will have a lien on the property purchased. If there is a lien on the property, you cannot sell it until the lien holder is satisfied. Maybe just in Wisconsin ~~ but something smells bad with this whole deal.

Lets say the second owner pulled the motors and installed new motors and has receipts indicating that they were installed in that boat, how can the first owner reclaim property that is no longer his...or second owner painted it, added a trailer or it sunk and he claimed an insurance claim.

That brings up another point, second owner no doubt has an insurance policy on what he feels is 'his boat'.

GAWD, what a soap opera...

Re: is it true national marine !
 

There are some pretty some fast talkers out there that can sell ice cubes to an Eskimo. I fell for one of them. He is a board member that doesn't post much anymore after screwing over not only myself but other board members as well. Calling these types out in a public forum is of paramount importance so that others may be spared the potential of a similar experience. I am glad to see that these types of posts are not being "poofed" as many of mine were. OSO is an invaluable resource in times of crises like this. Several board members assisted me tremendously in finding him and ultimately exercising several judgements as he was running from myself and other creditors. Ironically he posted in this thread talking about what a shame this is. Incredibly ironic. To OTIS311 and the others...best wishes for a successful resolution to your horrible situation! As I said earlier OTIS311, let me know if I can help in any way!

Re: is it true national marine !
 

This scenerio is unfortunate but not uncommon in the boating world. These guys and these types of deals will resurface. When I first heard of guys buying a boat, taking it back because they did not like it after a month or so, getting another boat and repeatedly doing this 2-3times is absolutely unheard of.

A couple guys I know are so upside down, so big time, they could have went out and bought a brand new 46 skater, however they are still running a 2-3 year old boat with loans out the ying yang! 2-3 times the value of the boat!

In this situation, if you are not holding a title you are screwed.

If you traded a boat for another and took it back for another one you liked better and they gave you one to run until they got something else in you liked, you are screwed. Run the living P*SS out of it until they come and take it. You have no other recourse or will get no other satisfaction. Do not strip it or sell any parts! That is theft and you could be prosecuted by the floor planner!

Those of you who took your boat there for them to broker and it is not there? Good luck. If they filed to have it placed on their floor plan and filed a lost title or you gave it to them, you are out of luck, excuse me, you are screwed.

Good luck to all of you!

These guys can go to Nevada and be free and clear until they come back to the state where the crime was committed. Only certain states have extradition for these type of crimes.

GOOD NEWS> for what inventory is left on the floor plan there will eventually be a fire sale by the floor planner. Line up guys they will be cheap!

Re: Rumor has it that the Fed's shut down Nat'l Marine
 

feel lucky national owes me $25,0000 on a outerlimits i never got! get this they tried hard to get me to give them more a few weeks after the deal was made , I told them no way deliever the boat and i would give them a cashiers check for the balance. I evem talked to mike about national appeartly at that time national still had ol fooled!

Re: is it true national marine !
 

Local Paper, Click on it to make it bigger.

Re: Rumor has it that the Fed's shut down Nat'l Marine
 

Yes... if National paid some people,,, and not others.... it could be considered a "preferential payment"... and the court could demand the money returned... scary thought... they usually can go back 90 days... :blaster:

Re: Rumor has it that the Fed's shut down Nat'l Marine
 

Try to call OUTERLIMITS direct. NM sold 28 of the 30 that were made. I am sure at this point that OL will be getting stuck with a few boats without homes. Seems to me that Outerlimits may be more than happy to forget $25,000 if you show thewm the paperwork. Afterall, they do not need the profits that NM was making anyway and you may end up with a better deal!

Re: is it true national marine !
 

Ain't that the TRUTH! :rolleyes: Guess he knows FIRST hand EXACTLY how these people work! :crazy: :eek:

Re: Rumor has it that the Fed's shut down Nat'l Marine
 

90 days for sure! Any refund checks to a customer would fall into that category, every check from NM even purchasing a boat from an individual and every vendor large or small with maybe the exception of the utility companies.

For you guys up to your eye balls in this situation, you can usually stall and negotiate with the attorneys when they are trying to collect. It also could take a couple years + to catch up with you. Depends on how big of a mess it really is. They will spend most of the time on the big $$$$$. They will threaten with anything they can thnk of that may scare you but at the end of the day they will settle. You cannot get out of it and it will not go away on it's own if it is conisdered preferential treatment. It is "THE LAW"!

In reality, those of you who have "LOANER" boats from them, legally you are in posession of the floor planner's property even if they have SOLD your trade or even have your TRADE/OLD boat on the floor. Once they have your title and send it to the floor planner, it is the floor planner's property.

Regardless if you recently purchased a boat form NM last week or last 6-7 months and have not received a title or MSRP, it is still the FP's property. You will receive nothing back.

If NM had their paperwork in order showing you have a boat, you will recieve a letter from the COURT to return the floor planner's property.
No if's and's or but's. Return it like they request or you will be in contempt of a court order.

Re: is it true national marine !
 

Now, now, let's keep it on the topic - crooks in Ohio - shall we? ;)

Re: is it true national marine !
 

I love your quotaion: "Marine service summed up in 5 simple words:
Good. Fast. Cheap. Pick two"

Crooked Sales has to fit in there somewhere!

Hey, NM also HAD a place in Florida so just do not pick on the OHIO CROOKS. That is profiling! Al Gore, John Kerry, OJ or Jesse Jackson wouldn't like that. :D :D

Re: is it true national marine !
 

This is unbelievable! Talk about a snowballing...
I hope all of you who are in this mess can come out of it free and clear, but it's not sounding good.

Bob, who in the hell would have thought just a few months ago that this would be happening. I'm so sorry...:(

Re: is it true national marine !
 

A pal from Florida, who a couple months ago, accepted a job with NM in Ohio. During the interview he said they were not quite conducting business in a normal fashion. He was there 2-4 days and quit. He could see the writing on the wall and did not want his name to be attached to that image.

It takes a chit load of $$$$ to fly a jet around the country and pick up people to look at boats. Eveytime I looked a their inventory and added up the $$$$ to support that debt it made "ZER0" sense.

Bouncing boat titles and having manufacturer's supply duplicate MSRP's so they can also go to a second bank is the oldest trick in the boating business.
I personally know 5 companies busted for that just in my neck of the woods!

Re: Rumor has it that the Fed's shut down Nat'l Marine
 

BUT, MY DEAL WAS A BROKER DEAL. THE MAN THAT GOT MY BOAT JUST RUN THE DEAL THROUGH NM AND NATIONAL TURNED AROUND AND PAID MY LOAN OFF WITH THE FUNDS FROM THE MAN THE GOT MY TOPGUN. THIS WAS NOT A TRADE DEAL.THIS WAS A CASH DEAL. HOW IF THE DEAL WAS A TRADE, YES I COULD SEE THAT THIS ISSUE WOULD BE A PROBLEM.

Re: is it true national marine !
 

I had some problems with NM about 3 months ago and ended up not buying a boat from there :argue: . now im kinda glad that things went the way thay did.
I hope all involved in this mess comes out of it okay

What goes around comes around.
Brad

Re: is it true national marine !
 

Oh yeah... the disappearing trade-in deal.

Re: is it true national marine !
 

I Still Cant Seem To Understand If The Bank That Financed Our Boats For Us Why Wouldnt The Burden Be On Them To Have Clear Title Before Funding New Loan To Nm I Think That There Are Alot Of What Ifs But The Bottom Line There Are A Lot Of Us Who Did What We Said We Would Ie Down Pymt Make The Pymts Get Ins Etc Etc Etc But Why Doesnt The Bank Bear The Resp.of Perfecting The Lien On The Title Who Knows? I Wonder If We Can Get A List Of People Directy Involved To Figure Out Best Plan Of Attack

Re: is it true national marine !
 

some banks will not fund a deal until the receive a perfected title. i run a car dealership and every bank i deal will fund us with what is basically a title guarantee, which states that we are guaranteeing to send them a perfected title...banks should either A fund via draft...or B not fund until title is received

Re: Rumor has it that the Fed's shut down Nat'l Marine
 

First of all it sounds like your bank has been satisifed by NM. The following is very key, and this is something that at this time you may not be able to actually find out because it is buried in their books:

IF NM ran it through their floor planner and the funds paid to your bank were from the floor planner and the transaction was completed within 90 days of the court order, your bank may have to pay the $$$$ back to the court.

There are many IF's in this situation. You will have to wait and see how it shakes out. Like I mentioned before, it could be up to a year to 2 years before you even hear anything.

I do not want to ruin your day but this is how it works. I know this because I have several companies stiff me every year. When you are in business they call the CODB, the Cost of Doing Business. Taken off the bottom line and added to the write off column in life. :stupid:

Re: is it true national marine !
 

I Also Own Some Car Dealerships And I Understand How That Part Works.i Think There Is Plenty Of Liability To Go Around Second Natl,sky,home Savings And Lets Not Forget The Boat Documentor If We Are Smart They All Are Insured And There Employees Have To Be Bonded In The State That They Work When And Who Will Step Up And Take Care Of What They Created Will Be The Interesting Part.

Re: is it true national marine !
 

absolutely correct...by the way TOGUN38...is this MICHAEL C

Re: is it true national marine !
 

No My Name Is Geoff W

Re: is it true national marine !
 

oh ok

Re: is it true national marine !
 

Could someone explain who/what a floorplanner is ?

Re: is it true national marine !
 

A floor planner is GE Capital, GMAC, Chrysler etc, All or most Car dealers rely on them to finance their inventory. The cars on the lot or in this case, boats, are actually held or owned by the company providing the "floor planning" $$$$.

Once a boat/car is sold paperwork is processed to get YOUR title form the company (floor planner) holding the paperwork (title to the unit).

Car dealers and boat dealers both are somewhat notorius for double dipping titles etc. On a new vehicle they may report that they lost a title or the manufacturer's certifcate of Origin. They already have one filed with one capital company and then file the replacement with another.

The other thing they do illegally is "FLOAT" the paperwork. That is they do not turn it in right away as required by law and keep the $$$$ in their pocket. Capital companies will often just show up on a lot and request the current inventory list, match them to their inventory of MSRP's and walk through the lots and see exactly what is there and what is not. OOPPS! That is when the problem usually surfaces and gets worse from there. The holding company will usually call in the loans at that point. Sudden death!! :blaster: :blaster:

Re: is it true national marine !
 

Hope he doesnt have athlete's foot.............. it might spread into his mouth after this week!!!

Re: is it true national marine !
 

Maybe I should have left my post from yesterday up? ;)

Re: is it true national marine !
 

Since NM is in the rears the big 3 mfgs will suffer. Nobody in there right mind would borry millions to sell these lines. If the economy goes south , look for more bad news in the high performance boating world! BH

ps. No free lunches folks!

Re: is it true national marine !
 

NM sells 28 of 30 OL's (someone posted)... and NM is Fountains #2 dealer?

There is a problem here.

Re: is it true national marine !
 

Not to mention they were the exclusive dealer for quite a few boat models.

What a shame.

Re: is it true national marine !
 

Im back home with my boat !!! Judge Logan executed a release on my boat at 300pm yesterday. I took the paperwork to the Vienna Police and after some photos and more paperwork they released my boat. I am one happy camper at this point. I am going to check out the work that the shop did today to see if it was done properly. The engines are in tact and turned over. Ill put them on the hose tonight. Still got the other issues with the payoffs to deal with but atleast I got my Tiger back. I got a lot of cleaning to do. The boat was returned a total mess inside. Oil in the bilge, grease everywhere, oil and grease on the carpet and mold starting to build up in the cabin. but.... I got my boat. Bill actually talked to me and he is trying to stay afloat and work thru his problems and keep the business going. I give him some credit for not running off and hiding.

Ill post more on the subject later. Thanks for all the calls of support.

Bob