Why are Turbos Banned?
 

It is my understanding that turbos have been banned from sanctioned offshore powerboat racing. What's the reason for this? I could see it for some of the lower end classes, just because supercharging raises the cost, but why for the upper classes, especially for the ones with "unlimited" in the class name?

Michael

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

if you allow things, progress could happen. that can't be good...

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

A simple answer is Fear of the Unknown. I would much rather use a turbo than an outdated roots type blower.

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

I remember back in the early 70's a turbine offshore boat was racing but it outclassed all the conventionally powered boats. Engine technology wasn't what is today. The turbine boat just ran, and ran. It didn't break (no out drives, used shafts and struts), could out pace the all the others. Guess the officials deemed it an unfare advantage. I belive it lasted two years before the ban.

Wonder if I can find a pic of it. I rememebr what it looked like. I'll look.

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

Because Mercury doesnt make a turbo motor.

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

A few builders are in progress.

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

Which is also the same reason that shaft drive/BPM boats aren't legal in most US offshore classes. :rolleyes:


So is this question just about turbochargers specifically, because most offshore classes in the US have also moved away from blowers as well. I believe that had a lot to do with safety, getting the speeds down to something reasonable, and making sure that a large percentage of the boats in the fleet compete at every event and finish every event.

Turbos would still be legal in a PX class if anyone wanted to put the money into them.

Not sure if it was a joke or not, but saying that things won't progress with all the engine limitations isn't true in my opinion. Engines are great, but pretty much the only reason I have any interest in performace engines is because they are a necessity to get an offshore hull to go fast. If you could go 140 mph in a 40 foot offshore cat by powering it with twin small blocks, who wouldn't? By limiting engine power, I feel that hull design and the sport of offshore racing will progress faster instead of slower. Sure, there is definitely room for advancement in the area of marine engines, but I believe that improved hull efficiency will reap more rewards for everyone in the long run. Limit your engine options, and in a highly competitive field of boats, everyone will learn how to do more with less.

Besides, if we start running out of oil in 30 years, hull design advancements will still be applicable. Engine advancements may not translate into whatever we end up using for power after gasoline is no longer an option.

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

LMAO!!! :D

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

Simply put there is no way to police them.However in an offshore application I do not think that they would dominate like they do is drag racing.Basically because you are on and off the gas so much that turbo lag would be a major factor in the boats ability to come out of the corner and go.However once that thing got spooled up look out cause it will be gone.

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

Iggy, your memory is A Plus.One of the old turbine boats was owned by Randy Rabe / Rabco boats. In St. Petersburg, FL. The name of the boat was the Spirit of 76. It was like the energizer bunny. Kept going and going.Was only raced a few times. All good things must come to an end. :rolleyes:

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

In Superboat unlimited and APBA PX class, turbochargers and blowers are allowed.

In all other classes, they got ride of blowers and turbos so the engines would live longer and finish races.

Got a Turbo? Go run against Bacardi in the PX class.

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

First of all the days of turbo lag are gone. Turbos used with the right EFI combo can make horsepower numbers than supercharged engines only dream of. Because of their success they have been banned from many sanctioning bodies. This is a shame because you have no idea where turbo technology would be today if it weren’t for being banned. I have spent 18 years working with EFI Turbo setups. There really is no limit to the horsepower potential. (well there was back in the carb days) There are 3 liter turbocharged engines on the street today that make more horsepower & torque than MerCruiser’s most powerful supercharged racing engine. The only drawback to turbochargers other than expense is their emission ratings. With cleaner air standards tightening these days turbos just cool the exhaust too much to burn clean.

I would love to see turbos used in powerboat racing. Imagine all of the horsepower you want in your boat.. then double it. That is what turbocharging technology can provide your engine. Right now no one makes a drive strong enough to handle it and I don’t think you will see one that can within the next decade.

Roby

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

I believe they are allowed in all P classes, not just PX

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

i would go for a couple of 2jz-gte turned up to about 800HP and some surface drives in my 30' cat... :eek: lightweight and a ton of power... :D

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

Why arent they used? Water jacketed turbo housings are rare and expensive. I know they have been done before but who has done it for a modern turbo charger lately?

Ron

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

What?? I would have to say that 80% of the turbos manufactured today are water jacketed. This is a common practice. dry turbos went out with the "turbo-timer-luber" call it what you want.

Roby

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

Learn something new everyday. So what you are saying is that 80% of the turbos made today could be installed in an enclosed engine compartment on a boat?

Ron

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

Same ban happened in Formula 1 the were getting 1200HP out of a 1.5 liter engine in Qualification trim. :eek:

On a per litre ratio that would put a 502 big block at 6,500 HP ...

Only one thing I remember often checking my Supra's engine under the hood after a good whoopping and that thing was bright red so was the exhaust manifold.... It might scare me around fiberglass to have red hot metals...then again you could make all that stuff water cooled it's only money!!!!!

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

i had one of those on my grand national.... :rolleyes: come to think of it, that was a long time ago... :eek:

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

Your Grand National came stock with the Garrett T3 dry center section. Alot of the Buick guys went with the larger Garrett T4 and beyond.

Ron, when I say waterjacketed I mean bearing center section. I didn't mean exhaust That has to be retrofitted as I'm sure many are available for boats. Powerboats are ideal for turbos because you have an unlimited supply of cool water for your water-to-air intercooler. This means you could produce even more power with lower grade fuels than you could in a car.

Roby

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

Back in the early 80s Butch Ryan had great success with turbo charged engines in his S class Active marine cat" Express" Also Al Copland ran Banks turbo engines as well in his early days of offshore...

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

front mount intercooler, wide band o2 system, lots of Duttweiler parts, T4 turbo (which got replaced by a T-76 after i sold it)..... ran hard, i wouldn't mind two of those in the back of my boat either... easy 650-700 HP all day, add in a big water to air intercooler, good fuel and turn up the boost.... 900-1000 easy... why don't people do this? i am pumped now... :D

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

I think closed course racing made them impractical,they can't come off the turns like a supercharger

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

how about poker run/pleasure boating... if you could control the turbo heat (easy enough) i would think there would be more pluses than minuses.... smaller, lighter engines, more effecient, more power, sweet sound...... :D

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

I know marine diesels are running turbos, so the fiberglass question should be answered already.....

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

Now I feel kind of silly.
I just realized the thread was about TURBOS not TURBINES. :rolleyes:

D'OH!

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

I would imagine it is tough to find a drive that can handle the power. However my knowledge of drives is very limited. A few more reasons are as follows:

Availability
knowledge, not too many people understand turbos
They aren't as pretty as a blower

The lag factor, Back when turbos were used with carburetors you had to pressurize the whole carburetor inside and out, add another carb and you had to build a big box for this. This massive box left little room for an intercooler and it was a lot of volume to keep the pressure in. Everytime you let off the throttle the charge would have to escape the box or it would blow all of the fuel in the carb into the intake. Once you went back on the throttle you had to wait for that massive box to come up to pressure. They tried draw-thru systems (1980 Turbo Trans AM) but all of that whipping of the wet air/fuel mix made for terrible atomization. I mean there was not much fuel left by the time it got to the combustion chamber. Add an intercooler to a system like that and it would make problems worse.

Roby

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

Iggy: If you hadn't admitted that, I doubt anyone would have really noticed. :D

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

i think surface drives would be perfect for a large HP turbo motor.... put closed cooling on it for all the aluminum parts, big intercooler, twin turbo (seq would limit lag), you wouldn't even need big blocks to run 800-1000 HP... and the best part, no noise violations... :eek:

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

Wasn't there an aluminum Gifford Marine cat that had turbo engines a while back?

Also, I remember reading about a crazy experimental engine project from back in the 80's that was backed by Mercruiser. (?) I believe the Ghallager/Kaiser Systems cat was the test bed for the engines. Anyone remember if those were turbocharged, or did they use a blower?

As far as drives are concerned. It seems like they should be able to come up with something. Wouldn't a shaft drive like a BPM or Trimax hold up?

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

Ron, when I say waterjacketed I mean bearing center section. I didn't mean exhaust That has to be retrofitted as I'm sure many are available for boats. Powerboats are ideal for turbos because you have an unlimited supply of cool water for your water-to-air intercooler. This means you could produce even more power with lower grade fuels than you could in a car.

Roby[/QUOTE]


My point exactly. One off water jacketed exhaust housings will be expensive. Add several thousand per engine for the custom ehaust and turbo housing. The question was why isnt anyone doing it. This is one reason I see.

Someone made a system in the past. Is anyone making anything now?

Ron

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

I woudl love to have 2 of these int he back of my Nor-Tech.

http://www.fast-autos.net/lingenfelter/427tt15.html

Lingenfelter could probably marineize it. I know he made some 502ci marine engines.

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

I just don't see why a wet exhaust system would be such a big deal. You could pump the water through the manifolds just like you have. Then pipe the water from there to the exhaust after the turbine housing. You can't pump water through the turbine but you don't need to. Just insulate it or use a heat-shield

Roby

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

That is not your typical BBC. That is a new generation small block that shares nothing with the big block chevy.

Roby

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

Huh? You mean water cooled bearings right? Watercooled bearings are not coast guard approved. The entire turbo must be jacketed or wrapped with a blanket. The biggest problem with APBA is proably the exhaust cooling problem as it relatest to Coast Guard approval.

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

This man was pioneering Turbo's in Offshore until the sport took his life. Rest In Piece Tom Gentry.

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

Roby,
Turbos have an advantage in emissions over superchargers. Emissions are measured compared to crankshaft horsepower output and on superchargers you are creating extra horsepower that isn't measured so the effective emissions output measured is higher. Turbos don't have that problem, but there could be other items as you mentioned that come into play. An issue that does come into play in marine applications balancing the torque curve. You can make great hp with turbos and you can tune them for more bottom end torque, but it's easier with superchargers to balance the two. I think turbos will have a future in marine performance in the future, but it's going to take some resources and development time.

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

Please don't blast me on this, I am ignorant on the subject :( :rolleyes: . What is the difference between a blower/supercharger, and a turbo?

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

basically...... superchargers are crank driven, turbo is exhaust driven....

Re: Why are Turbos Banned?
 

Thank you for the simple explaination. So turbo's make more power because they are not slaving off of the engine? I didn't realize that gasoline and diesel turbo's worked on the same principle :(