10% ethanol fuel
 

Has anyone ran ethanol in 496 mag

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

not in a 496, but ive ran it in my car and my bike. 10% ethanol will not harm any cumbustion engine. It has less harmful emissions also.

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

Unless you have a Skater or other boat with built in resin or epoxy type tanks. It eats them away allowing chunks and goo to go to fuel pumps or worse....clogging filters and leaving you out in the middle of the ocean with no fuel to the engines. :mad: It has been a bit of a crisis for Skater owners in Long Island where 10% ethanol blend has already been mandated.

Ethanol is corrosive (not god for aluminum engine parts), attracts water(not good for boating), and eats at rubber gaskets and seals.

It burns cleaner BUT its burns FASTER leaving you with less range in your gas guzzling boat. More than 10% and cars have to be modified to accomdate it if that tells you anything. It will also have a cleaning effect in your fuel system, so it can clog filters etc....

But get used to it folks, it's on it's way (it's a big part of the Bush energy bill), and probably here to stay.

Special interest groups, (Farmers) are the biggest supporters since it is derived from corn crops.

It also costs more to produce since it can't be piped (it attracts water). They have to build special refineries to make it happen, and you guessed it, Farmers are investing in that production.

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

Well, Let's just shoot all the farmers then. Sounds like we are the problem. :mad: :rolleyes:

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

Not the problem, but not the best solution by a long shot, (with respect to powerboating). This is a powerboat website after all.

Payton, I know you are a farmer, and you have a special interest in ethanol blended fuels, (understandably). You told me yourself in our private messages that you are investing in the refineries, but you and I both know ethanol is not a good thing for marine fuel.

There's nothing our small special interest group, (powerboaters), can do about it now, the wheels are already in motion, but brace yourself, ethanol is going to cause us alot of problems (see just some of them in my post above).

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

The manual says it's OK to run 10% blends with the 496. Just don't store it over winter with the ethanol and use a stabilizer.I think any alternative power is good weather it's wind ,sun are home grown corn. There's a small problem in the marine industry with ethanol,I hope it can adjust.

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

I hope so too. Those "small" problems can be costly though. Engines are not cheap.

Why not store it over the winter with the ethanol? (I already know the answer), but what am I supposed to do with 120 gals of gas if for some reason I can't run it dry before winter storage?

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

This sh*t is really worrying me. I was just having a conversation with my co-worker who also is a boater. If these effects are real and people start blowing engines left and right there are gonna be some pissed off boaters. I blew my engine a month ago...could it have been from 10% ethanol?...Probably not but who knows. And how will you know once it starts happening.

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

I heard an ethanol plant is being built in Fulton (central New York) close to where I live. It will be good for the local economy. And IMHO, that's all it will be good for.

Nation wide, what percentage of oil based fuels (including diesel, heating oil, etc) do gasoline powered cars, boats, and other gasoline burning engines really use...maybe 1%?? I don't know, just asking.

My point is, I don't see where 10% ethanol mixed in with gasoline is going to make much difference to the country as a whole. Don't get me wrong, the f'n mid east oil producing companies can kiss my azz. We should be free of thier grasp. I just don't think 10% ethanol mixed with gasoline is the answer.

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

If you are running Ethanol, then I would say there is a good chance. Ethanol has a cleaning effect on your fuel system, it will clean up sending the gunk right into your filters or pumps. If that clog leads to a lean condition...kaboom!

I've heard from reliable sources of some very suspicious and expensive engine failures out on Long Island recently.

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

It will cost the same and burns faster so it's not doing us (the fuel consumer) any favors. We will get shorter range and have to carry more fuel (weight) to get where we want to go.

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

Alot of what I'm saying are the cons to ethanol are identified as fact by Payton himself in this thread.

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...hlight=ethanol

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

You edited a little bit to much out of my last quote!
It is a much better choice than the MTBE that Ethanol is replacing. MTBE whne spilled , in water or on land, simply does not go away. It remains a carcinegen (sp) vertually forever.
So what's wrong with a clean fuel system? Change your filters a few time and you are good to go. The main drawback is Ethanol will attract water. So, don't leave it for next season in your fuel tanks. Put it in your car.

Ethanol does NOT burn faster than gas. It burns slower. That is why Ethanol was used at the Indy 500 this past year. That is also why a 10% blend will raise the octane rating 1 point.
Where ever you are getting your info is slanting it toward the oil industry. The facts aren't exactly correct.

I would think Skater should stand behind their tanks and replace them.

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

I only edited the irrelevant parts of the quote to make the relevant part easier to see. That's why I posted the link to the entire thread, citing the entire quotes and where they came from.

My car will smoke alot with 62:1 Amsoil in the tank. :rolleyes:

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

Burns slower??? Where are you getting your information from?

"The data collected showed that ethanol-blended fuels do indeed decrease the emission levels for NOX, HC and CO. This was accredited to ethanol's higher heat of vaporization and INCREASED BURN RATE."

"but they emit acetaldehydes when regular gasonline fuels do not"

(INFO ABOUT ACETALDEHYDES IN THE LINK BELOW) It is a carcinogen and poisonous but you don't see any of this on the Federal Department of Energy information site. There is alot to be gained for farmers scientists and politicians if a non fossil fuel is invented and hastily put into production in this day and age.

http://www.reboundhangover.com/acetaldehyde.htm

"Ethanol conducts electricity, unlike gasoline, which is an insulator, so it is vital to remove all aluminum products from contact with ethanol fuel"

E85 has 27% less energy than gasoline because ethanol contains less energy than gasoline. With the lower energy content, it requires more ethanol fuel to provide the same power as gasonline. Consequently, ethanol cars like FFVs need a larger fuel tank so it only as to refuel as often as a regular gasoline powered vehicle.

WORK CITED:
http://www.engin.umd.umich.edu/resea...5-2004.doc.pdf

Maybe you should read the whole thing, there's more bad stuff, but hey, you will get rich right?

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

Ethanol, apparently not the perfect process that farmers and governent would like you to believe:

Work cited below can be found at this link.

http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id35.html





The ability to make ethanol from straw-- rice straw, wheat straw, oat straw, etc is the modern day equivalent of the Holy Grail or the Philosopher's Stone. In a time when barely any new oil fields have been discovered in the past ten year-- and a war in Iraq rages with such anarchistic abandon that it seems unlikely that anyone will be able to pump oil for a the next several year: well, the news that we can run our cars on this "new" fuel seems like a breathe of fresh air. Ethanol burns much cleaner that gasoline, and doesn't add fossilized CO2 to the atmosphere: it is recycling present day CO2.

However, this new development does have Greenpeace and other environmental activists worried: It involves a genetically modified organism: a genetically engineered yeast to convert glucose AND xylose into ethanol.

They added three genes to plain old Saccharomyces yeast so that it can break down both sugars at the same time.

They claim a 30~40% increase in yield. This could be a huge breakthrough--or a huge mistake. Xylose makes up roughly 30~40% of celluloid materials like corn stalks, grass, wood chips, leaves, etc. In short, a yeast that feeds on xylose can feed on almost anything in the plant kingdom.

Intensive research on cellulose conversion to ethanol previously focused on mechanical, heat and acid hydrolysis techniques, all of which are expensive. Propagating a yeast organism, on the other hand, seems as simple as baking bread or brewing beer.
But don't expect that we small scale distillers will be able to buy this anytime soon. It's the property of Purdue University & they have taken a completely novel approach to marketing this patented technology. They are "leasing" (not selling) the yeast to a Canadian company, Iogen. http://www.Iogen.ca

Iogen is already producing ethanol and selling it to Petro-Canada for mixing with gas. They are claiming 75 Gallons per ton of straw, with roughly 2/3 of the straw being converted.

It is interesting that Iogen and Shell chose to announce this product to the world in Europe, which historically has been actively fighting any GMO products. Just a week later in Madison, Wisconsin, the 20th annual Fuel Ethanol Workshop had over 1500 ethanol industry attendees, including Iogen--an exhibiting company-- but no mention of this breakthrough was mentioned. Apparently, Iogen, Shell, and Petro-Canada are playing their cards close to their vests. The market for fuel ethanol is established beyond any doubt: it is presently a 3 billion dollar/year industry. By keeping this technology to themselves, a new bio-technology industry promises to be the new Middle East in terms of fuel supply. The other corporate players in this announcement, DaimlerChrysler and VW, have long produced cars that will run or 85% to 100% alcohol--previously only in Brazil, but now in the US, too.

A report titled, “Genetic Engineering—Too good to go wrong?” can be found at

http://archive.greenpeace.org/comms...g/getoogoo.html The above article lists various accidents and very dangerous and toxic side effects of genetic engineering efforts so far. An unrelated but somewhat parallel effort to produce a GMO yeast produced very high toxic levels of a mutagenic product, methyl glyoxal, with the potentially undesirable effect of getting loose into the food chain. --Robert Warren

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

Why do you keep talking about E85? You are not using E85, an 85% blend, you are using a 10% blend.

Looks like you are becoming an expert and well read on Ethenol. That's great! I am going by the fact that we have used a 10% blend in all of out gas for the last 8-10 years. That includes 30 year old farm trucks, all of the pickups I've owned, boats, motorcycles and lawnmowers. and anything else that ran on gas. The 30 year old farm truck had aluminum tanks, We changed fuel filters about once a month during heavy use for 3 changes. Then only as needed, maybe every 2-3 years.
My previous boat was a 1979 26', Mirage with a 700hp Twin turbo engine, W/aluminum tanks. I wan this gas in this engine for 3 seasons (90 octane), never any troubles.

Getting rich?? :D :D I wish. I invested so that I could be diversified. I know farming and this ethanol plant is 49% farmer owned.

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

Ethanol is no good in a marine environment period. If you're not convinced by now, I'm sure I can find more information for you.

You can preach about your trucks and tractors all you want. But you're not giving us any solid facts.

Don't worry, the Bush Energy Bill will deliver your corn sales. Ethanol is on it's way. I just want the boaters here to know that there is trouble ahead. There are plenty of boaters in Long Island already experiencing it first hand.

Funny how none of the known negatives to ethanol are discussed in the political arena.

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

Like you mentioned earlier, this is a boating website, Not a political arena. There is a place here to talk about politcal stuff, it's not the tech section.

No you have not convinced me. Go ahead and look up more and print them. I'll just stop checking this thread. :D :drink:

by the way, quoting Green Peace around here, I don't think will convince to many people to change their minds.

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

You're a farmer therefore you brought politics and economics into this. It is in your best interest politically and economically to see ethanol legislation passed.

If you were buying something would you ask the salesman if it's good or the guys who own one?

I answered the tech question. I am a performance boater who will not gain from this rather it is costing me and causing me problems. I also don't see any hope in fighting it, I have accepted the cost that will come and I'm seeking ways to avoid the problems down the road. I'm also trying to educate others who will have these problems. Changing filters and water separators in 4' chop is not fun. Lean detonating expensive engines is worse.

The question was posed if anyone has run ethanol in a 496. I think it's safe to assume he wanted to know if it was safe to run it in his engine. The following post stating "ethanol will not harm any combustion engine" is dead wrong as I think I have demonstrated with factual researched information. I didn't give opinion, I backed it up with facts. I know technicians in Long Island who are experiencing it firsthand with numerous customers owning high end boats.

I have answered the question far more technically and accurately and done so from a boater's perspective.


If you want to sell your ethanol, maybe go to a farmer's site.

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

One more thing, Greenpeace is slanted towards the oil industry? That was just one of my many resources.

You never did tell us where you got your facts. Show me a reference for example that supports your assertion that ethanol blended fuel lasts longer burns slower or has a greater range. Is it just from your independent studies on your farm?

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

This is getting silly. Why are you twisting my words? Where did I say that Grean Peace is slanted toward the oil industry?

I guees my "facts" are my own use of ethenol for the last 8-10 years. 5 of those years have been use in a performance boat.

Talk to race engine shops that build engines that run on alcohol . The engines run cooler, in fact so cool that some of the racers fill the engine block water jackets, then run no cooling system.
There is more energy in a gallon of gas than a gallon of alcohol. The same that there is more energy in 87 octane gas than in 89 octane gas. That is why you have to run higher octane gas in a higher compession engine. If you run 87 octane in an 10:1 compression engine the engine will detonate itself to an early grave. Detonation is when the compression ignites the air fuel mixture instead of the spark igniting it.
With that in mind. Gasohol works the same way. In a 10% blend you will lose a little of the energy of that gallon of gas. Same as raising the octane rating. Gasohol doesn't create more heat. It creates less. It takes more heat (compression) to get the same energy. The same as it takes more compression to get the same power out of 89 octane as you can out of 87 octane.

Hey, I am a boater too. I am not trying to sell ethanol. I am not trying to pass legeslation. By investing in the ethanol plant that i did I am hopeing to add to my retirement income 20 years or so from now.

I still say Skater should step up to the plate with new tanks for your boat.

actually what I explained was preignition not detonation.

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

You said "Where ever you are getting your info is slanting it toward the oil industry. The facts aren't exactly correct" Didn't you? I pointed out that Greenpeace, (one of my sources) is by no means an oil industry slanted source. I didn't twist your words.

Let's review in simple terms:

1. Corrosive to metals
2. Dissolves and has a cleaning effect on fuel systems that
could clog fuel filters, damage pumps, injectors seals
or other fuel system components.
3. Reduced gas mileage and range
4. Attracts water
5. Conducts Electricity
6. Produces toxic, biohazardous, carcinogenic elements
in certain circumstances.
7. Expensive to produce, cannot be piped (has to be trucked)
will cost the taxpayer both in terms of tax dollars
used to build facilities, and tax breaks to the distributors
in order to sell at prices competitive with standard
gasoline.

Which one of these characteristics do you refute and what information do you have that supports it being inaccurate?

You have yet to even prove scientifically that ethanol produces better gas mileage. You're a farmer planning to retire on ethanol investments and you assure me that it won't hurt my boat or my car and that you get better gas mileage in your farm vehicles. Somehow I'm just not buying it. If I can't run E85 in my car without modifications, then I sure as hell don't want the same stuff in my car or boat just in smaller quantities.

Anyone else agree?

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but doesn't this support the notion that Ethanol gets poorer gas mileage?

Ethanol = less energy / less heat, but you need more heat to get the energy that gasoline of the same octane rating has?

Refer to post # 15 Ethanol has an "increased burn rate"

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

I stand corrected MOST of your sources. Who knows where Green Peace is slanted, Certainly not in favor of high performance boating.


Again the E85!! What you are talking is E10, A 10% blend not E85 an 85% blend. You went back to the original question before, that was about E10.
That about takes care of #1 and 2

#3 In on of our PMs I may have said I get better milage with B2 a 2% blend of soy oil and diesel fuel. I never said better milage with a 10% blend of Ethanol. I given my above example, I wouldn't expect better milage. If your boat engine is safe to run on 89 octane gas. You will see less mileage and range if you run a tank full of 91 octane. For the exact same reason.

I agree, it atracts water. Do you leave your Skater in the water?

You think the oil industry has no tax insentives??

I would like to see that Gasoline won't conduct electricity. Water will, why wouldn't gas?

Is ethanol the end all savior to the energy problem? No. Is it an improvment over blending in MTBE? Yes.

I would be stupid to expect to retire on one single investment. Just like I would be stupid to expect S.S. to give me the retirement that I would like.

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

Are these things good for the marine environment?

It doesn't have to be in the water, it can be near the water, it can be humid outside or raining and under a tarp....It's not about my boat it's about ALL boats.

The research is about Ethanol, E85 or E10 is just a matter of concentration. I've seen first hand that E10 dissolves rubber seals and if dissolves the lining in Skater tanks. That's enough concentration for me. BTW Skater is making good on their tanks.

Gasonline is an insulator not a conductor. Comparing it to water tells you nothing, gasoline burns and water doesn't.

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

Fellows your both right your just arguing over the pros and cons of ethanol, lets get back to the tread on the merc. 496.

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

There are pros and cons. I definitely understand the pros to agricultural economic stimulation and alternative to middle east supply, however with respect to that 496, I'm saying the cons far outweigh the pros, and if you have those 496s in a Skater or other boat with built in tanks you can multiply that 100 fold.

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

100 plus, I under your problem it seems to be a skater issue not a 496 issue.

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

If you look down that list, most of them will affect any boat, 496 or 25 Johnson, doesn't matter.

But is looks like Mess doesn't care for the answer to his 496 question, only Cropfarmers are concerned when the cons are spoken about ethanol.

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

Here's one 496 with a problem. Payton is correct on this thread, the problem is with ethanol, not methanol (used in the 80s)

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...hlight=ethanol

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

Hey boys just talked to Dustin Whipple about 10% ethanol and he said it's not a problem.That's all I needed to hear.100plus you need to slow down a little bit and not get so worked up about this issue. I should mention I'm a farmer too, but have not invested in a ethanol plant yet.

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

Yea your right I should lighten up, pay the same amount or more per gallon, lose gas mileage and range, drain my tanks every winter or anytime I don't use the boat for a month, corrode my aluminum engine parts, dissolve my tank linings and engine seals, change water separators regulary at $20 ea. (x2), replace $200 fuel pumps (x2) regularly, flow test injectors (x12) regularly, watch EGTs more than the water since the chances are increased that something will create a lean condition. No big deal.

Did you find out why your engine blew up?

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

I guess I should become a farmer and invest in ethanol. :drink:

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

100plus I have to admit the ethanol did concern me. I don't know what caused the problem, but Merc will tear the motor down and try to determine what happen. I've spoke with several people about this and asked them about running 10% ethanol, but everyone I talked with did'nt believe that was a factor. I will post you back when I get the report from Merc.

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

Ethanol has been used here in Phoenix for years and I've been running it in my boat as well as numerous friends with no reported problems. I own a marine repair shop and can equate no problems with the fuel related to marine applications. I do know GM cars/trucks have had problems with there injectors plugging up but its related to the fuel fill tube rubber flaking off mixing with gas and plugging the injector, cause gas???? Maybe, but doubt it GM had this problem before Ethanol arrived... I can say the gas has no amount life existance, it will go bad quickly!!!

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

Thanks guys :drink:

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

Na, just invest in ethanol. Actually the main invester group for our local plant is from Mass., and the ethanol will be shipped by rail to the East coast.

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

I will chime in here with my 2 cents. I live in oklahoma and we don't have ethanol. I have a stock 502 efi. I went to iowa and filled up with the ethanol gas and when I went to plane a full throttle it would cough and spit. I have NEVER had a problem with this motor in 6 years. I changed the fuel filter and it was fine for about 4 hours and did the same thing. I went through 3 filters before it got back to normal. No more ethanol gas for me, if I have a choice.

Re: 10% ethanol fuel
 

When it's nationwide, you'll see. Minnesota is already pushing 20% (E 20) by law. That stuff's going to do some harm.

Click here:
http://forums.screamandfly.com/forum...hlight=ethanol