motor spec's please evaluate
 

well i just got some of the motor spec's from my motor builder was wondering if you guys can let me know what you think and if it was worth it (50,000 for both, 25000 ea.). most of this doesn't make sence to me so bear with me.
started with 2
454 HO gen 6 motors
work done
machine and honed blocK and surfaces
machine heads

Rods - stock but with H-beams

crank - steel (drilled and balanced)

Heads - GM cast iron rectangle port

Pistons - JE 106903 flat top

Compression - 8 to 1

Valves - Manley
in.- 2.19"
ex. - 1.90"

Cam - Lunati roller 54847
duration in. - 218 degrees
duration ex. - 226 degrees
lift in. - .534
lift ex. - .544
lobe center in. - 108 degrees
lobe center ex. - 116 degrees
seperation 112 degrees

Intake - edelbrook performance rpm 2R

Procharger - M3 SC

Distributor - DUI / HEI mech advance

rev limiter - DUI

plugs - ac delco

wires - 8mm DUI

fuel pumps - procharger A-1000 aeromotive
fuel reguator - procharger

carbs - Holley 4 barrel duel pumper 800 cfm (don't work right)
92 jets pri/ 103 sec / .130 needle and seats
foam floats, removed chokes,

Re: motor spec's please evaluate
 

50k for them?????

I really hope you kidding. Are they dynoed???? Warranty????

Looks like a lotta cash for what you have listed.

Re: motor spec's please evaluate
 

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Re: motor spec's please evaluate
 

That is alot of cash for those motors, I would think they would be worth about 12k a piece wih the pro chargers tops. And what exactley is a stock connecting rod with H beams ? unless you meant stock legnth H Beam rods, that would make sense.

Re: motor spec's please evaluate
 

sounds very high for the work and parts mentioned !!!!!! I hope that theres more to it for 25000 each even with r&r 15 k maybe

Re: motor spec's please evaluate
 

First Yes Hillybilly Your Right It Was Stock Length H Beam Rods
Second There Was Other Work Included But I Still Think It Was Very High. The Actual Motor Building, Parts, Prochargers And Assembly 36000.00 For 2 (i Know The He Charged Me 5700.00 Ea Just To Buy Procharger Set Ups)
50000.00 Included All The Above Plus Parts And Labor
Removing Motors From Boat W/ My Help
Installing Motors In Boat
All New Raw Water Plumbing To Motors Because We Had To Move Fresh Water Coolers, Oil Cooler, Transmission Cooler, To Side Walls To Make Room For Procharger Set Up.
All New Fresh Water Lines To Motors
All New Fuel Lines
New Fuel / Water Separators
New Raw Water Pumps
All New Belts
Boost Gages And Installation
Fuel Pressure Gages And Installation
New High Volume Oil Coolers
All New Fluids
Reworking Carbs, (still Not Right)
I Still Think It Was Ridiculous But Its Done
But Back To The Original Thread Do The Spec.s Look Good Or Do They Look Like Something I Could Have Bought Off The Shelf For 5500 Each Plus The Price Of A Procharger Set Up

Re: motor spec's please evaluate
 

You could get much more power for much less installed from other sources. Do your homework and comparison shop, 50k is a lot for what you've mentioned. :rolleyes:

Re: motor spec's please evaluate
 

I just did a quick math job in my head. You can duplicate or even improve upon what you got for about $10K each, plus say $5000 for the labor and other things.
I say it`s way too high !
Did he at least kiss you afterwards ? :evilb:

Re: motor spec's please evaluate
 

That almost looks like the same spec's of the 454HO GM crate motor. They are using GM steel crank and JE piston but with 9:1 Compression in the 502 I am sure it is the same in the 454. The long blocks run about 4500 EA from GM!!??

Re: motor spec's please evaluate
 

$50,000 seems like an aweful lot of money for what you have there. Here's a labor/pricing sheet of a local, very reputable machine shop in my area that has been in business for about 20 years or so. This price sheet lists cost of all the machining operations in detail. All labor is based on a $60 per hour labor rate and they have "state of the art" equipment.

They do a lot of edurance engines, and they know what it takes to properly machine an engine destined for the hi-perf offshore marine environment---without any hype. Compare it to what you have paid for, the parts you have, and then ask yourself if you think you may have paid too much.

I will post the labor sheet in two segments in hopes that it is legible. Just click on either one and it will enlarge it for you.

Re: motor spec's please evaluate
 

reread it


I hope he hasnt done the work.


I would tyhink You can buy 2 500efi for around 25 and another 15-18 supercharge them.

Re: motor spec's please evaluate
 

Rob,this guy has already had this work done. The real sad part is the builder is not really following thru on the final tune AND My impression is Electrical one ALREADY OWNED the 454 HO BLOCKS,CRANKS AND CYLINDER HEADS!!!!!!!
Smitty

Re: motor spec's please evaluate
 

Smitty why don't these people ask us for advice or help before they could of gone a different route and had a lot better motor.I have had people PM me asking for advice on stuff like this before and was glad to help them.

So I would assume it was a 415-425hp type motor So he will be limited on hp with the stock style components.

Again from what he is telling us there is a lot of labor$$$ that this guy is doing?But 50k :eek:

Re: motor spec's please evaluate
 

Strip Poker, I know---pretty scarey isn't it???... and that's why I posted those labor sheets from a well known precision, performance machine shop in our area. I would think it should give at least a BASIC IDEA anyway, of what a person should be paying for, i.e, the machining processes involved, engine assembly, etc.-----especially in light of what he was charged for in engine labor costs----GULP!!! :eek: :snide:

Re: motor spec's please evaluate
 

As a comparison, I built similar engines a couple of years ago out of a customers 454's. I used polished 3.3 Whipples instead of prochargers. Seems like the bill came out to about 35k for the pair including Stainless Marine exhaust with custom risers, installed and tuned the best I can remember. Your specs sound like a pretty solid package that should give many hours of good performance.
Bob

Re: motor spec's please evaluate
 

Thanks Bob I Know These Motors Where Not Cheap By No Means, I Just Wanted To Know If The Specs Look All Right. The Builder Is A Retired Mechanical Engineer And Is Very Precise From What I Can Tell And Waste Alot Of Time Until Its Perfect (sometimes I Think He Does To Much Thinking), But One Thing You Have To Remember We Don't Have Many Good Boat Engine Builders Up Here That I Know Of. Up Here There Car Motor Builders, Who Think Motors For Boat Are The Same, From What I Can Tell I Asked Way Back If Anyone Knew Anyone From This Area. The Closes Response I Think I Got Was New Jersey. I Don't Feel Comfortable With Someone So Far Away If I Have A Problem. When Was The Last Time You Heard Of Good Boat Mechanics Coming From Ri Except Outerlimits. Seems Like Most Of The Good Ones Are In The Middle Of The Country Or On The East Coast Down South. If You Break Down The Cost Of The Motors, It Does Seem Like A Lot For The Work Done, But There Was Alot Of Work. Everything Is New In The Engine Compartment Except The Transmissions, Bell Housings And The Original New Blocks And Heads I Had.
The Procharger Set Ups Where 11400.00 For 2, Subtract That From The Motors Builders 36000.00 Thats 24600.00 For 2 Motors, Thats 12300.00 Ea.. Old Motors Torn Down, Machined, New Parts And Labor, Reassembled And Fully Dressed To Be Installed, Including Procharger Assembly Labor. The Only Things That We Reused Where The Blocks And Heads. The Rest Of The Money Approx. 14000.00, Was All The Other Things That No One Ever Figures On, New Sea Water Pumps, New Carbs. 800 Cfm Holley Marine, All New Hoses (sea Water, Fresh Water, Fuel), Motor Installation, New Gages Needed, Wiring, Fuel Pumps, Fuel/ Water Separators, New Oil Coolers, Plug Wires, Ignition, Rev Limiters, Plugs, Carb. Jet Kits,
(should Have Bought A New Boat, Been 2 Years Of Hell,)

Re: motor spec's please evaluate
 

Electrical1, it is easy for others to look in from the outside and say you spent too much. From the amount of work you had done the price may be high but seams resonable. If you had more knowledge and resources I'm sure you could have saved some money, but hindsight is 20/20!

Now, I understand you are trying to solve a problem. I am not a mechanic and cannot comment on your engine specs, but I do have experience dialing in prochargers. I had a pair on carbed 502s.

I read your other posts so I have an idea of symptoms. As said before the key is fuel delivery. I had a problem where I would hit 4500 rpm. I would push the throttles the rest of the way and no change. I had boost and the right fuel pressure. It turned out to be the pick-ups in the fuel tank were too small. I change them and problem fixed. You've stated that you hit a certain rpm and then the rpms would drop. All I can think of is too much fuel. Did you look at the plugs immediately after this happened?

Or, any debris in the carbs? Pinched lines? Too many 90 degree fittings? Are the fittings a true 1/2"? I mentioned in your other thread about your plug wires. You cannot have solid core wires. I made the mistake of switching to solid core and I could not reach high rpms, and also the motors would not run well and one of them would just shut down.

Worse comes to worse, take the belt off the Prochargers, set your fuel pressure to 7 lbs, re-jet the carbs or borrow a pair, and see if the motors run properly without the Prochargers. I would expect my mechanic to solve this problem without additional charges.

I like the way the Prochargers worked but chasing bugs gets frustrating and expensive.

Re: motor spec's please evaluate
 

Oh yea, as far as boost referencing..... I spent $1000 at Nickersen and saw no gains or improvements. So don't base alot on that theory.

Re: motor spec's please evaluate
 

I paid $26K for 2 complete rebuilds on my 580's which included new pistions, re-balancing and rebuilding the blowers. Block/heads/ and intake were reused.

I installed, rigged and tuned motors myself.

My guess is I would have paid somewhere near $40-50K with everything new but these motors are a different animal than what you have. You can get a 450hp 502 longblock for $7K.

Re: motor spec's please evaluate
 

I think he's more interested in solving his problem than discussing the cost.

Re: motor spec's please evaluate
 

At this point I just want them to run right before I put the boat away for the winter so I can at least start fresh next year with no problems. Its getting cold here I have to this boat out in 2 weeks tops. The Money is spent and gone no need on crying about it now. I just want to clarify one thing as far as the motor builder he has been there every step of the way and still is, sometimes I think I adopted him at this point. We have been tring to tune these in for the last month and half and he hasn't asked for a dime. He just at a loss at this point. All right back to fuel. The fuel lines are plenty large enough 5/8 lines all the way to the tank. 1/2" pipe for pick ups in tank. 2 separate 1/2" lines from fuel pump to primaries and secondaries. This problem seems to be in carb. fuel pressure is great never drops and raises perfectly with boost. 92 jets primary and 103 secondary with .130 needle and seats. Its great that everyone has has a good experience with Nickerson, I think he is the way to go at this point. I asked about The Carburetor Shop in California in another thread because he wants 400.00 ea to redo the carbs. into blow threw carbs., Nickerson wanted 900.00 ea. thats a big difference. At this point its chump change compared to what I've spent but why the big difference. Thats 800.00 compared to 1800.00 for the 2 carburetors to be reworked.

Re: motor spec's please evaluate
 

Try member [Doug]RumRunner he is Barry Grants head tech guy , Maybe he can give ya a little advice .You can buy new blower calibrated carbs for 900 each. 900.00 Thats seems extreme :drink:

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/m...hp?userid=1857

Re: motor spec's please evaluate
 

Nickerson charged me $500 each. Now he wants $900?? Sounds like he's getting greedy. Like I said, there was no difference after he did my carbs. Boost referencing is not your problem.

Re: motor spec's please evaluate
 

electrical, i bought all my parts and took em to mer. for 50k i will have 2 588, `1071 blown 1000hp engines, dart, oliver, keith back cranks all the very best parts all new execpt the blowers and 850 carbs. your guy is trying to put you to sleep with those prices. do some shopping, tommy at chief i think charges 3500 to build you a motor if you provide the parts. there a many good builders out there.

Re: motor spec's please evaluate
 

Electrical1, I guess you never hit the dyno with one of these? That would be your best bet. As far as carbs, I ordered up some from AED in Richmond, VA for a blower setup and requested a 12:1 AF ratio (they wet fow the carbs) and were like $2K for four carbs which were 850 base plates and 750 body's. Flowed around 800 wet. Everyone wanted to do
their "special" thing for the blower deal for much more $. Ran them on Zul's dyno and they were perfect, didn't even re-jet. Have been super for two years. I would get one engine
on a dyno before you trash a motor. AED's number is 804-271-9107.

Re: motor spec's please evaluate
 

circle performance in brockton mass rents out there dyno thats close to RI. AND REID in whitman mass also has a dyno were my motor was built. 509 647 hp 627tq. if you need #s or prices just post me art