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Programmable knock control systems
Has anyone tried the J & S Safeguard, knock control system? Seems like a good idea, timing retard, rev limiter, boost and start retard. jandssafeguard.com
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Re: Programmable knock control systems
GPM,I've never heard of J&S before.However,their web site is very interesting.If the the system works as stated, you have made a big contribution to the marine engine by identifying the product.Do you have any further opinion or knowledge of this product or similar products?
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Re: Programmable knock control systems
I found MSD and Livorsi make knock monitors, J&S is the only one I found that actually does something to control detination. I've talked to the owner of the company several times now, he's been in business since the early 90s. I'm planning on buying one next week. If it works, and I'll know first hand, it sure would make tuning easier. I would think the head gaskets, pistons, the motor would last longer, if detination could be controled. J&S states the knock sensor can be adjusted to work with my solid roller cam, I set the amount of timing retard I want to run. The dash mounted monitor tells when the motor starts to detinate, and how much timing is being removed.
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Re: Programmable knock control systems
WE have two new engines in the dyno room now.They make 1,000 HP on 92 octane,non inter cooled.The supercharger is under driven 18% , F/A ratio is 12:1 at 6,000 , boost is 6.2 and timing is phased @31 degrees.However,we would like to start adding timing some where around 3,000 rpm.Whereas,the system is closed loop,it may be capable of adding that advance curve along with the other features.Yesterday,we looked at the crane HI-6.However,it doesn't offer some the features J&S claims,especially closed loop and individual cylinder control.My biggest concern is electronics cross talk and EMI and RFI----------------any comments will be appreciated!!!!
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Re: Programmable knock control systems
I was told the individual cylinder control works with the analog MSD ignition box, but may be a problem with digital. All 8 cylinders may need to be controled together. It would be nice to hear from someone that has experiance with the unit.
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Re: Programmable knock control systems
CcanDo, my boat will be in storeage for a while yet, so I have no way to test the knock system, I'm very curious how well it works. If you end up trying it could you post the results?
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Re: Programmable knock control systems
I used the J+S unit on my '90 Syclone when I bought it. It worked flawless and was seamless. Nice light show.
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Re: Programmable knock control systems
Thanks Cobra !
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Re: Programmable knock control systems
GPM: Tom Earhart was using these before he went to an EFI with knock control.
CcanDo: The unit was mentioned here: http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...xes#post494334 cobra marty: I'm happy to hear you liked the unit. We sold a couple hundred of those to Kenne-Bell, for his Syclone/Typhoon customers. |
Re: Programmable knock control systems
John, will your Safeguard work on a blower motor with carbs?
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Re: Programmable knock control systems
GPM:
It's a knock control ignition. It doesn't care about the kind of fuel system. Consider using it, even if you have a laptop programmable ECU, like these Porsche tuners did with a Motec: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showt...6s#post1998268 http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewtopi...light=j+s#7015 |
Re: Programmable knock control systems
Originally Posted by CcanDo
WE have two new engines in the dyno room now.They make 1,000 HP on 92 octane,non inter cooled.The supercharger is under driven 18% , F/A ratio is 12:1 at 6,000 , boost is 6.2 and timing is phased @31 degrees.However,we would like to start adding timing some where around 3,000 rpm.Whereas,the system is closed loop,it may be capable of adding that advance curve along with the other features.Yesterday,we looked at the crane HI-6.However,it doesn't offer some the features J&S claims,especially closed loop and individual cylinder control.My biggest concern is electronics cross talk and EMI and RFI----------------any comments will be appreciated!!!!
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Re: Programmable knock control systems
GPM,we have not done anything yet.Next week we will get more information on the crane HI-6 and Anson combination.I still like the J&S system.I'll let you know what we do and how it works.
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Re: Programmable knock control systems
Originally Posted by CcanDo
GPM,we have not done anything yet.Next week we will get more information on the crane HI-6 and Anson combination.I still like the J&S system.I'll let you know what we do and how it works.
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Re: Programmable knock control systems
GPM/John,Today,I realized we have 6 each Anson Knock sensors in inventory.That sensor is plug and play with the crane HI6M.Therefore,we did order two HI6M's.But, my associate was to have tried ordering a J&S system also.I've been in meetings and not heard regarding the J&S order status.Once we would have both systems we will compare dyno pulls using one and then the other.
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Re: Programmable knock control systems
Originally Posted by CcanDo
GPM/John,Today,I realized we have 6 each Anson Knock sensors in inventory.That sensor is plug and play with the crane HI6M.Therefore,we did order two HI6M's.But, my associate was to have tried ordering a J&S system also.I've been in meetings and not heard regarding the J&S order status.Once we would have both systems we will compare dyno pulls using one and then the other.
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Re: Programmable knock control systems
Ccan Do...6 in stock...I have 2 Crane HI-6Ms using them on my motors, which are also on the dyno. HP500's N/A with new heads and cams. How much do you retail the Anson units for. Don't think I'll need the knock sensors, but have the ability to use them.
Let me know, Thanks Dave |
Re: Programmable knock control systems
We have been trying to reach Anson for two days to verify production.As soon as we talk with them, I'll let you know.
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Re: Programmable knock control systems
Ccando, how does the Anson product compare to the J&S?
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Re: Programmable knock control systems
We don't know yet.
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Re: Programmable knock control systems
Price-wise, I think they run about the same.
The Anson is a knock gauge. The J&S is an ignition module with rev limiter, a knock detector that retards only the knocking cylinders, and a boost retard unit, all in one. |
Re: Programmable knock control systems
John, if I want to let my existing MSD box handle spark and rev limiting, let the Fast ECU handle the start up and boost retard, is there a marine compatable unit that will cover the knock retard. Just in case I push the motor a little to hard, get some bad gas, or anything else that could cause the motor to detinate. I hate to spend the money on the marine unit and not need, or use all of the features.
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Re: Programmable knock control systems
GPM:
If you don't go near salt water, you could use our automotive V.O. This unit is not totally sealed, and it deletes the onboard two bar MAP sensor and boost retard software. This unit will need an input from the FAST's MAP signal wire. Note that the unit uses load, RPM, crank position, and background noise level to screen for knock. We recommend our V.1 unit for carbureted engines, since it includes the two bar MAP sensor. Without it, the unit would have no way to sense load. Some car guys "cheap out" and get the V.0 unit anyway, and simply tie the wire that would normally connect to an external MAP sensor to 5v, simulating high engine load, enabling the knock detector. |
Re: Programmable knock control systems
John, does the V.1 require a crank signal also?
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Re: Programmable knock control systems
Gary:
Both versions get crank angle information from the ignition system. No need to install a separate crank trigger. |
Re: Programmable knock control systems
Hi John,Heard you were snoozin.........We'll give your system a try.Please ship as soon as you can. Thanks!
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Re: Programmable knock control systems
Originally Posted by John_at_J&S
GPM:
If you don't go near salt water, you could use our automotive V.O. This unit is not totally sealed, and it deletes the onboard two bar MAP sensor and boost retard software. This unit will need an input from the FAST's MAP signal wire. Note that the unit uses load, RPM, crank position, and background noise level to screen for knock. We recommend our V.1 unit for carbureted engines, since it includes the two bar MAP sensor. Without it, the unit would have no way to sense load. Some car guys "cheap out" and get the V.0 unit anyway, and simply tie the wire that would normally connect to an external MAP sensor to 5v, simulating high engine load, enabling the knock detector. |
Re: Programmable knock control systems
GPM:
The automotive units cannot be fully sealed. There are switches, control knobs, and connectors on the front panel, with exposed solder joints, etc. In the marine units, the electronics are basically in a can filled with epoxy. |
Re: Programmable knock control systems
CcanDo:
That evaluation unit will ship to LB on Friday or Saturday. |
Re: Programmable knock control systems
Hey John at J&S, what a coincidence I was mentioning this product on a thread at Hotboat.com under blower motors, topic is turbo motor timing. Maybe you can sign on over there, and shed some light on how effective this product is? I run a carb'd Whipple HP500(currently with a HI-6M) and was looking at your product pretty closely. Thanks in advance.
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Re: Programmable knock control systems
I have Sterling 572's with quad rotors that needs additional timing under 4500 to prevent detonation. Ignition now is MSD. I am also interested in how this product works.
The boat is a Skater not the Formula in the avitar. Thanks, John B |
Re: Programmable knock control systems
HP350SC:
Some people have their minds made up about knock sensors. They've heard "knock sensors don't work" so many times, they believe it. As Rush Limbaugh says, "Thinking is hard work." It is true, however, that knock sensors work best on quiet engines. The biggest interfering noise comes from piston slap, due to loose fitting forged pistons. GM makes many knock sensors, but, according to a list sent me several years ago by a GM engineer, they are tuned for just three frequency bands. The different thread styles and internal load resistor values account for the many part numbers. Note that the value of the load resistor is important only when connected to a GM processor. Engines with a bore greater than about four inches should use the sensor with the lowest frequency band, which is centered around 5.2kHz. GM sensors are not tuned for some magic or "perfect" knock frequency. They are tuned for a bandwith, about 1kHz wide. The medium frequency sensor is 6.0kHz, and the highest frequency is 7.0kHz, which is used on the Saturn and the Fiero. I have since read that they aso make an 8kHz sensor, but that would suit the smallest bore engines. I talked to LB the other day, and told him that the MSD Knock Alert ships with the medium frequency sensor. I had him read off the part number of the sensor included with the Anson gauge, and it is also the medium frequency. Note the the frequency bands overlap, so these sensors would still work on a large bore engine, but may not be the best choice. |
Re: Programmable knock control systems
Originally Posted by John_at_J&S
GPM:
The automotive units cannot be fully sealed. There are switches, control knobs, and connectors on the front panel, with exposed solder joints, etc. In the marine units, the electronics are basically in a can filled with epoxy. |
Re: Programmable knock control systems
CcanDo, any news yet?
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Re: Programmable knock control systems
Tuesday,next week.....let you know then!
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Re: Programmable knock control systems
Photo of LB's evaluation kit is available on our site. Click on products, then new marine racing version. It's the first photo.
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Re: Programmable knock control systems
John,I like your new product pictures........Two questions. What does the knock sensor pickup look like?And,as I visualize the nitrous circuit;could the circuit be " closed " until a predetermined Rpm was reached and then "open".The purpose in so doing would be to "add" timing,rather than retard.That is, if the circuit normally retards timing, subject to seeing a dry contact closure such as when the nitrous circuit is activated.If so,thence the amount of advance would be determined by the position of the nitrous switch.However,the "rate"of change would be the last hurdle. As you know,an Rpm activated switch is a shelf item.
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Re: Programmable knock control systems
Wish lists are also a shelf item.
Are you asking if I can add an advance curve? I can do that. Some of our units have a retard/advance curve. For example, see the figure at the bottom of the Focus installation page. The advance curve would be a "straight line" curve, advancing linearly with RPM, between two predetermined RPM points. The amount of advance could be set in software, or you could choose to have it set by what is now the "nitrous retard" knob. If that's the case, then the "nitrous retard" wire could be programmed as another on/off function. |
Re: Programmable knock control systems
John,With the unit you shipped LB,is it possible to set the base timing 10*--15*or even 20*back of 38*and start adding timing at approx. 1500 RPM to be all in at 3000 RPM
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Re: Programmable knock control systems
Yes, I can program a curve like that. As I said above, pick start and stop RPM points, and an amount.
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