oil filters....
 

thread running here about " loss of oil pressure" and cause has been traced to " bad fram oil filter".... followed by comment " never use fram again" and various commentaries elsewhere about oil pressure probs vs oil filter manufacturer....

question is.....or more accurately argument and diatribe starter is.... do you really believe that a major manufacturer of filter products ... a 100 million dollar company that has been in the filter business since the beginning of time is actually manufacturing products for sale that will CAUSE you motor to lose oil pressure.... do you REALLY believe that ?

assuming the correct filter for the correct application....and an apples to apples test....

can some filters have a better "micron" rating ? sure

can some filters have different materials and design ? sure

but are you really suggesting that a mercury or wix or napa or autolite or ANY manufacturer filter , installed correctly on ANY appropriate and correctly operating motor will make different internal oil pressures ? really ?

now the observation was made that if the filter becomes clogged ( with what ? i might ask ... ) that the oil will by bypass ( true ) and run hotter and thinner and thus pressure will drop... which is true. but i would respectfully suggest that if your oil filter is full of trash then that trash is the immediate and proximate cause of the pressure drop. sort of like saying that when the rod goes thru the pan that the pan was of bad quality because it now has a hole in it.

i will simply say that i have run every manufacturer of oil filter on every type of engine completely interchangeably for 20 years... from 2500 rpm thumpers to 12,000 rpm screamers with absolutely no dicernable difference in performance and not a single solitary failure of any type from ANY manufacturer.

i would suggest that if mr smith did a back to back test between those two filters now he would find no difference.... that the person that suggested the chk valve being stuck was probably correct and that when the new filter was installed whatever caused it fixed itself.

think of how hydraulics work.... the oil pump is a positive displacement device... if the filter is clogged and the chk valve sticks closed, the oil pressure gage pins and the filter explodes off the motor. if the filter is clogged and the chk vlave works then the gage shows the pressure as a function of flow rate vs viscosity.... i.e. it will start out high and then as the oil gets hot it will go down... if the filter just flows BADLY as in partially blocked then it will be a combination of both.... but the bottom line is that the filter itself can not cause low oil pressure in a motor that has a bypass in either the motor or the filter.

if the relief valve and bypass are miss matched then thats a motor issue... not a filter issue.

Re: oil filters....
 

Thanks.

Re: oil filters....
 

I have been using fram filters and few others longer than 20 years and have never even heard of a filter having this kind of problem off the shelf. But when the experts including mercury racing tell me that it is a bad filter, and I change it and every thing goes back to normal. Thats what I believe it is. Did fram and allied conspire to get me. I don't think so. Will it ever happen to me again, probably not. Is it just fram, probably not. But being an american, I can choose a different filter from now on. I choose to also drive a chevy truck over a ford. It is not that I think a multi billion dollar company like ford is out to get me or that if they were compared side by side that one would be hands down a better truck. It is just my choice. Just like the fram filter. As far as mercury racing engine with 32 hours having some kinda problem that was causing this and not the filter. I probably not as smart as you and only have common sense to guide me. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it may be horse, but I'm going to call it a duck for now. Thats just me though.

Re: oil filters....
 

Steve, if you are going to come on here and accuse people of spreading ignorence and bs, you should have your facts straight. Some research has been done. http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...erm+oil+filter

Re: oil filters....
 

Re: oil filters....
 

I've used Fram oil filters my entire life...and I'll continue to use them. You can pay now...or pay later. It's up to you!!! :D :evilb: :D :evilb:

There is still alot of good information that can be obtained from this website, but lately, you sure do have to weed through alot of "internet experts", teenagers and people who full of chit (who don't even own a boat) opinions to find it. This is just my opinion and it's not directed at anyone who has posted on this thread.


Whew...I feel alot better now! :D

Re: oil filters....
 

i am not accusing anyone of anything.... i am simply pointing out or trying to that sometimes the conclusions drawn are not supported by the material facts or even the relevant theory....

its the frog joke.... when you cut off all a frogs legs and yell " jump" and he doesn't... it isn't because he didn't hear you.

i am not saying that mr smith changing his filter didn't solve his problem... what i am saying is that the statistical likelyhood of the filter itself causing the problem is really remote....

and in light of that low percentage, it would be nice to know what the truth is.... in an objective and technical sense.

changing the filter may have fixed the problem... but do you really believe the filter... THAT manufacturer part number ,type, and design are really the root cause ? thats the question... basic , technical and non personal...

if you have a technical argument to make for that.... im happy to hear it.

tell me why and how.

and to pat... i just looked at those threads you sited.... not a single objective technical fact or reference in any of it... none...zero.

Re: oil filters....
 

call me simple but I like the frog joke. If you cut off his legs and yell jump and he doesn't. It could be that he does not listen so well or that he is VERY stubborn, but I'm saying that I think he does not jump because he has no legs. Same thing on the filter. When every thing is fine and the only thing you do is add new filter and lose oil pressure and the great people on oso and the techs at mercury racing tell you that it is the filter and I change it and that fixes the problem. It may be the type of beer that was in the cooler or maybe like the frog, it could be just a stubborn motor or maybe it was the fact that it was a saturday in april, I'm going to call it the filter that was causing the problem and the frog isn't jumping because he has no legs. You are free to call it what you want. I'm just happy that its fixed. :drink:

Re: oil filters....
 

On the original Oil Filter Survey thread it was said that they had a problem with the elements collapsing and blocking oil flow. Unfortunately the link no longer works. I posted those threads anyway because they are full of good info . It does say that Fram standard filters are not reccomended. If I can find that info I will post it. A few people on this website have posted the same thing. I think Frank, 10x on the board, said it happened to him.

Re: oil filters....
 

Here is a theory for you guys. Is it possible that, because of cold water temps, there was excess condensation in the oil and the oil temps hadn't risen above 212 degrees to boil it off causing the element in the filter became wet and reduce flow? I do remember that someone had said that the element in the Fram filters is made of a different material which people thought made it unacceptable for marine use.

Re: oil filters....
 

Helped a friend of mine put his rebuilt BBC in his Nova a couple of winters ago. We were going to run engine for 20 mins. to break in solid cam and lifters. When we primed engine, oil pressure gauge would not read any more than 15 pounds. Swapped pressure guage and got same result. We scratched our heads a bit and decided that maybe our drill motor was not strong enough to get the pressure up. Started engine and again low pressure so we shut it down right away. Called engine builder and he was just as dumbfounded as we were and said to bring engine to him for inspection. So we pull the engine out of the car again and take it to engine builder later in the week. None of his drill motors could get pressure up beyond 15 psi either with yet another guage used. Oil pan was pulled to verify no damage to bearings and to inspect pickup. All that checked out so we remove oil pump and submerge in drain pan full of oil to verify its operation and it worked perfectly. Everyone is standing around looking at each other trying to figure out what next as we new oil gallery plugs were not the issue. Then the guy in the shop that always gets flack because he is a Mopar guy says did you guys try another filter. Everyone looked at each other like, yeah right, cussed at the guy a couple of times and then we decided what the hell lets try it. Put pump and pan back on, swapped filter, put oil back in and immediately got 80 psi when priming.

There was about 10 of us in the shop that night and not one of us had ever had a problem with an oil filter. The filter that was defective was a Wix. Do I think that Wix is junk now? No, but I do know that although it is rare, a defective filter is possible. The worst part of this experience was that I had half a case of brand new filters on the shelf in my garage for the boat and if we had changed it at the start of this nightmare, we could have saved about 30 hours of time and been doing burnouts 2 weeks earlier. :D :D

Re: oil filters....
 

absolutely no argument with any of this.... but would really like to see something authoratative about this collapsing element from somewhere because , if true, that is a real issue and would like to know the hows and whys... IF for instance collapse cause by filter material then thats a useful piece of information to fold up and put in your pocket for some other day...

serious question.... why do you think marine oil filters have to be different than automotive filters ? in my eyes we have same pressures/temps/ level of abuse or not as the case may be....

re " defective " filter.... you don't think that the gasket/lower housing collapsed far enought so that some part of the filter base just leaned on the bypass ball enough to lift it off its seat do you ?

pat... feel free to email me that report if you can pull it back up somehow... would really like to see it.

Re: oil filters....
 

Steve,I see your back making friends :evilb: . I have never experienced a filter so bad a motor went from having normal oil pressure to near zero either but I have seen links (I think on hydros oil thread) to other websites where oil filters have been tested for flow (gpm),filtration ability (some filter as low as 5 microns others as high as only 35 pr 40), outer shell construction (thickness of shell,some are real thick and won't burst until 550 psi,others are flimsy) and internal construction (some have anti drainback valves,some don't,others have internal bypass valves,some don't,some have synthetic media,some have really cheap paper media,some even have cheap cardboard gaskets inside them others rubber,etc,etc). What I have seen out of all of this is some claims that certain cheap fram filters and a few others use supposedly substandard construction methods where a small amount of moisture can drop the flow capabilitys considerably combined with the fact the filter doen't have a internal bypass valve and cause a serious drop in oil pressure under less than ideal conditions. Because I don't run any kind of bypass valve in my oil system on my boat and I get considerable amounts of condensation in my motor due to running fairly rich and fairly cold block temps I use the data and testing others have published to choose a filter that will work the best for my application. I ALWAYS use either a fram hp style racing filter or k&n filter because the gpm rating far exceeds what my pump puts out and they both publish the fact that they contain a bypass valve and have a heavy shell.Their filtration capabilities are not as good (15-20 microns)as other more" stock style" filters but most filters don't have a built in bypass valve.I have seen shells deformed on cheap filters on motors that run 80 psi cold immediately after startup until oil warms.
I also built a pontiac 400 motor when i was a teenager for a tran-am that spun rod bearings because of a combination of wrong oil filter for the application and a combination of other factors. Pontiacs need a higher volume oil pump than stock to support higher rpm's etc,when you do this and use a stock filter block adapter the oil bypass stays open almost constantly resulting in un-filtered oil due to the inability of a stock filter to flow enough oil. The answer is to plug the stock filter housing bypass valve and use a good flowing oil filter with a built in bypass valve,preferably longer than stock so it has enough increased filter area so as to not open the bypass except maybe when oil is very cold. Reading all this back then I went ahead and did it,what I didn't do was re-locate the oil pressure sender that read off the INLET side of the filter to the oil gallery on the block (first mistake). Next mistake occured when I ran out of the longer built in bypass valve oil filters I had ordered thru the mail. They were somekind of hasting premium or something. Next mistake was going to a local hotrod shop and letting the counter guy sell me a stock length "high perf" filter that had no bypass valve (he swore they all have a bypass valve and that I was just wasting my money). Put filter on and oil pressure looked great,in fact it was actually a little higher than before. Within 50 miles motor started rod-knocking, but still had great oil pressure. Before pulling motor out I installed a seperate mechanical gauge reading off the oil gallery. When you revved up the motor block pressure would drop to half at block (like to 30 psi) but gauge reading off filter housing would stay at 75 psi. It was a heart breaking mistake at the time but I learn from my mistakes :mad: . Since then I am extra fussy about what I use for filters on anything. Will a cheap, oem equivilant filter cause problems on a stock motor,no,unless from a fluke you some how get one built defectively. But,as with anything,once you start modifying things you need to be sure of how everything will work together. I'm sure I didn't bring up anything you (steve xsm) weren't already aware of but just sharing for some of the others out there still learning,Smitty

Re: oil filters....
 

Geez, and I actualy started reading this thread!! Thank goodness I came to my senses and realized it was good for something... post count boost by 1. :evilb:

Re: oil filters....
 

If you need big big flow Fram Racing is the only way to go.

If you can sacrifice a bit of flow for added filtration then K&N is a great choice.

If you want decent flow and better filtraiton still.. then Wix Racing is the one.

For maximum filtration at the sacrifice of some flow then Mobil-1 or Amsoil is the way to go.

If you want very good flow and filtration and CHEAP go A/C Duraguard it can't be beat.

The best of both worlds may be a dual filtration system...as it can add an extra quart too!

my .02

Re: oil filters....
 

I have also had friends that had the defective Fram, I guess they colasped ,Who knows ?To me its not worth taking a chance . I guess with all manufactors you can come across a bad filter. I still like the Wix racing filter.

I would think a marine filter should be better suited for water over a car. I know on my race car it never gets hot enough to burn off the condesation.I would like a filter that could acept a higher precntage of moister. if waterclogs the filter making it bypass?

Heres a pick of the Wix on the Hustler and my Camaro valve cover full of water just from sitting :eek:


Rob :drink: