Ethanol, just not the real thing.
07-12-2006, 01:48 PM
#31
Geronimo36
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Re: Ethanol, just not the real thing.
Originally Posted by dean51267
Did "big oil" run down the price of oil in the late 1990's? Or were we "ripping them off" then and now just paying back? Or maybe they do not control what companies will pay?
If government takes control of oil, watch the price explode, and the quality decline, just like what happens EVERY TIME the government takes over something.
Oil prices are driven by the commodities markets on a world wide basis, we may not LIKE that fact, but it is a FACT. Farmers do not control the price of wheat, minders do not control the price of coal, steel manufacturers do not control the price of steel, and oil companies do not control the price of oil.
Oil is a comidity, and commodities markets are driven by the expectation of future supply and demand. Oil is a critical commodity, so companies are running up the price to secure future supply lines. It has little to do with TODAY's supply and demand, but rather EXPECTED supply and demand in 6 to 12 months. Right now the markets are telling us their is significant risk of shortages in 6 to 12 months. (Imagine that, with the nut in Iran saying he will shut off supply and China growing at 8% of GDP per year).
The best thing to do to lower oil prices is to bring stability to world markets, reassuring them that their will be oil production to meet tomorrows needs. That means develop domestic production capacity.
No, if we could not meet demand for oil with existing supply, alternative energy would become viable. There is no mathematical possibility of "running out of energy/oil". It simply can not happen. If we can not meet demand for oil, then natural gas becomes an option, if we can not met the demand there then solar or wind becomes an option, if we can not met demand there hydrogen, or nuclear, or something else becomes viable.
Remember, people do not want OIL, they want ENERGY, and the moment extraction of energy from some source other than oil is more cost effective, THAT becomes the new thing.
Just like they do not want wheat, they want bread, no one wants coal, they want heat, they do not want steal, they want cars, they do not want copper, they want electrical wire. Oil is an INGREDIENT. If you had a billion barrels of oil, and no way to use it, sell or refine it, it would be worthless, because oil is just an ingredient, in its natural form it solves no problems, meets no needs, and has no rewarding characteristics.
Goobernment taking over oil is about like them taking over farming, more people working in the Dept of Ag than farmers exist, average income of oil companies plummet, net technology (like genetic altered foods) comes from and goes to their countries, taxes become more expensive, rationing becomes possible, all that crap. Remember, gooberment is not the answer, it is the problem. The best thing the goobernment could do to stabilize and lower oil prices is get off the environmental wacko kick, let oil companies build refineries, encourage them to if necessary with tax incentives. Increase STABILITY of supply, and increase stability of PRICE.
THAT is the answer to oil prices, and the ONLY one that will work.
If government takes control of oil, watch the price explode, and the quality decline, just like what happens EVERY TIME the government takes over something.
Oil prices are driven by the commodities markets on a world wide basis, we may not LIKE that fact, but it is a FACT. Farmers do not control the price of wheat, minders do not control the price of coal, steel manufacturers do not control the price of steel, and oil companies do not control the price of oil.
Oil is a comidity, and commodities markets are driven by the expectation of future supply and demand. Oil is a critical commodity, so companies are running up the price to secure future supply lines. It has little to do with TODAY's supply and demand, but rather EXPECTED supply and demand in 6 to 12 months. Right now the markets are telling us their is significant risk of shortages in 6 to 12 months. (Imagine that, with the nut in Iran saying he will shut off supply and China growing at 8% of GDP per year).
The best thing to do to lower oil prices is to bring stability to world markets, reassuring them that their will be oil production to meet tomorrows needs. That means develop domestic production capacity.
No, if we could not meet demand for oil with existing supply, alternative energy would become viable. There is no mathematical possibility of "running out of energy/oil". It simply can not happen. If we can not meet demand for oil, then natural gas becomes an option, if we can not met the demand there then solar or wind becomes an option, if we can not met demand there hydrogen, or nuclear, or something else becomes viable.
Remember, people do not want OIL, they want ENERGY, and the moment extraction of energy from some source other than oil is more cost effective, THAT becomes the new thing.
Just like they do not want wheat, they want bread, no one wants coal, they want heat, they do not want steal, they want cars, they do not want copper, they want electrical wire. Oil is an INGREDIENT. If you had a billion barrels of oil, and no way to use it, sell or refine it, it would be worthless, because oil is just an ingredient, in its natural form it solves no problems, meets no needs, and has no rewarding characteristics.
Goobernment taking over oil is about like them taking over farming, more people working in the Dept of Ag than farmers exist, average income of oil companies plummet, net technology (like genetic altered foods) comes from and goes to their countries, taxes become more expensive, rationing becomes possible, all that crap. Remember, gooberment is not the answer, it is the problem. The best thing the goobernment could do to stabilize and lower oil prices is get off the environmental wacko kick, let oil companies build refineries, encourage them to if necessary with tax incentives. Increase STABILITY of supply, and increase stability of PRICE.
THAT is the answer to oil prices, and the ONLY one that will work.
07-12-2006, 01:55 PM
#33
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Re: Ethanol, just not the real thing.
Originally Posted by fund razor
I agree with the rest of your post, but even if the entire center of the earth was filled with oil, AND the population and economies were frozen in time, we would not have 350 years worth of supply.
The 350 years part is not my personal assertion..... it is the mathematical calculation of how much oil we have now, how fast we are finding it, how much of the earths crust has been explored, and the most aggressive estimates of oil usage.
If you accept some extremely basic concepts of capitalism and economics, it becomes functionally impossible to run out of oil. When oil gets to a certain price, other energy sources become viable, and we stop drilling for oil. If oil cost 430/barrel to extract, and it sells for $20/barrel, effectively that oil does not exist.
The only real question is "is it possible to run out of oil", and if so, "how long before that can theoretically happen". If the first answer is yes (something I disagree with) then the theoretical point is 350 years plus....
these statements are not opinion, they are facts, I am just repeating them....
Last edited by dean51267; 07-12-2006 at 01:59 PM.
07-12-2006, 02:51 PM
#35
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Re: Ethanol, just not the real thing.
Back on topic, we've ran E10 for years in our boats here in the midwest (both EFI and carb) with no ill effects. The only change I would suggest is to leave the tank as empty as possible during winter layup as opposed to filling the tank as was common practice for years.
07-12-2006, 02:56 PM
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Re: Ethanol, just not the real thing.
Originally Posted by fund razor
You make some great economic based points Dean. No question.
But logically speaking a theoretical guess at 350 years is not a fact.
It's an opinion.
But logically speaking a theoretical guess at 350 years is not a fact.
It's an opinion.
agreed, good catch, it is the most well supported OPINION, but it can not be a fact..... I had my words mixed up.....
07-12-2006, 05:55 PM
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Re: Ethanol, just not the real thing.
Originally Posted by fund razor
How long is your winter layup? 9 months? 10 months?
<-- Lives in SoCal
I'm not sure where you were going with that comment but ok.
If you tune specifically for ethanol blend there will be no loss in power, and quite the contrary you can make a good deal more.
07-13-2006, 09:08 PM
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Re: Ethanol, just not the real thing.
Very good information and opinions. I would like to say however that I have seen ill effects from the E10 as well as many other boaters in the Chesapeake Bay area this year.
My issue is that the new fuel has been removing varnish or other impurities from my gas tanks since I switched to E10 and thus my carb screens are constantly filling up with very fine brown residue. The tank has been drained twice and I still see residue. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel but this has been a big hassle.
By the way, no issues this year until I put my first tank of E10 in.....
My issue is that the new fuel has been removing varnish or other impurities from my gas tanks since I switched to E10 and thus my carb screens are constantly filling up with very fine brown residue. The tank has been drained twice and I still see residue. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel but this has been a big hassle.
By the way, no issues this year until I put my first tank of E10 in.....
07-13-2006, 10:59 PM
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Re: Ethanol, just not the real thing.
Originally Posted by fund razor
Something that creates issues you will never have. Like 10 month old gas.
sorry I guess I didn't portray my sarcasm well enough through that.
But it is what it is. I wouldn't let ANY boat sit for 10 months with out properly treating the fuel system. Heck race fuel goes bad from sunlight in no time at all, it's just part of the game.
Try running something on pure meth, have to drain all the fuel from the system after every outing.
Oh here's to turbines and running them on good ole #2
