Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

A couple of weeks ago, I wrote about what we thought was a water pressure issue when I found excessive water in the oil. We installed a Mercury relief valve which did its job - water pressure never made it above 12 psi. We pulled the sticks after several runs and found again a milk substance!

Engine builder seems to think that the Gen VI block is not holding up, he wants to switch to a Dart Block. Another person states that he is very sure that it must be reversion. I am looking for thought here. Thanks.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

Cam specs? Timing and idle speed? Do a search on reversion, much info on diagnosing.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

These are 540s with Jim V. heads (Dart Pro Ones). The cam is a Crane 139651. Boat is a 35' 2001 Classic Fountain. Exhausts exit under swim platform near the water. Is it possible that I could be getting water backing off trailer or at idle? CMI e-top headers, with CMI tails - water introduced at transom as far back as possible. There are no internal baffles or external flaps. Engine builder stated that water could not make the climb?

He wants to replace the block, thinks that the block is not holding up. I would appreciate any thoughts on this.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

Pull the intake manifold off it and replace the gaskets.Excessive water pressure will push out the intake gaskets.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

I have to agree with JC pull intake and check gaskets I have a hard time beliving its the block other then maybe a bad head gasket,you could also pull a header/manifold and check for water trails to check for a reversion issue

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

What a bummer. When I saw you pull out of the shop Saturday morning, I was hoping to hear all was good.

Is it happening to both motors? Hard to imagine bad gaskets on both, but I guess anything is possible. Any chance the headers are leaking - have you had them pressure tested lately?

Just curious - does anyone know what a max CR ratio would be for Gen VI with aluminum heads? Does the Dart block have a different head bolt pattern? Maybe that's why he mentioned the Dart blocks.

Good luck. Hope it is a simple fix.

Doug

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

Run engine with fuell exhaust and wet on the dyno, idle it down for a few. Pull risers/headers off and look for water. If you can do this easily in boat, then do it there.

Also, as mentioned above, possible intake gasket leak. If your block and/or head surfaces have been machined and the intake manifold hasn't, you could have water posts not aligned well and showing it's ugly face with any sort of pressure.

The 502 blocks can hold up to what you are doing with them, but it's always possible you are having issues with yours - be it from machine work or on their own. Both on their own? Would be strange, but schit happens.

This issue needs to be strongly investigated before you have no hair left.

I'll mention this again - I do not like the 651 cam, but since many do I may be off kelter with my opinion.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

I just noticed this.

Yes it can !!!! Both ways.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

Pressure test the blocks cooling system at say 25psi, it will take a little rigging, but can be done by blocking all the t-stat housing hoses but one and sealing off the hose from the raw water pump. Use a radiator tester.

If that's good then I'd look to oil temps and crankcase ventilation.

When you say water on the sticks, do you mean water, or milky oil, or scum.

I had a stopped up crankcase vent (Pinched hose) and my oil was milky after a 30 mile run with a mile of idling. New vent and problem went away.

Not saying it's not reversion, but there are other possibilities.

do you have flaps in your exhausts.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

Thanks for all of your input. I do not have flaps on the exhausts because I was told they were needed. They are a cheap fix, should I have some installed? The engine builder is pressure testing the blocks today. It was a milky oil after only 15 minutes of running. We varied the speed to test the water pressure and everything was ok there. The starboard had a little more of the milky oil on the stick than should have been with just oil. The port engine also had a milky residue, but the total volume hadn't increased much.

SB - you are right, the cam is liked by some and other feel that it has too much duration. Could this be a cause? I know this is the cam the engine builder has used in all of his 540 configurations.

We did replace the copper gaskets last time. The first time it appeared you could see the trail of water on the gasket.

The engine builder did say that he had this issued once before on a blower applicaiton where he replaced the block with a Dart block and the issue went away. That is the reason that he is leaning toward the block issue.

waterbum - good to meet you Sat. morning, there seems to be a different head bolt pattern. The Gen V and VI motors have a lot more material taken out of the block as compared to the Dart or even a Gen IV with regard to the head bolts.

Again, thanks for your replies and help.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

You mentioned head bolts, verify that they have the correct and enough thread sealer. This is another way for water to reach the oil. Again, a pressure test will point you in the right direction.

As far as flappers go. A boat that had had no problems for 3 years hydraulic-ed after sitting on a beach for 8 hours, I guess the right combination of waves were able to push enough water up the exhaust.

I have s pipes and below the water line exhaust (at idle) I have the metal flappers built in (make a horrible noise at idle) but I would not be without them. If I did not have the slant cut tips, I would have gone with rubber. I think that good flappers may help a little with reversion also.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

I had the 651 cams in my 540's. With iron GM heads there was no reversion. Changed to AFR 335 cnc heads and had reversion big time. Had to go to dry pipes. There are a lot of things that cause water in the oil. Start with the simple ones. I doubt if it's the block.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

Yeh, the Gen VI 502 blocks have been flogged by harder hp and not had an issue. Supercharger's anyone ? :D

The 502 blocks have dry head bolt bosses - they do not go into the coolant like many other BBC's do. Wish all blocks where this way.

Maybe a dumb question - but why copper headgaskets in this application ? What is up with that ?

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

Only head gaskets I would ever use in these applications are Felpro or Cometic. I use AFR's intake gaskets which are good quality and tough. Use hI tack gasket adhesive to hold it in place on the head and Permatex non hardening form a gasket on the intake side around around the water passages.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

Copper Head gaskets on an open cooling system. . .no way.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

I think the deck and head were machined to use o-ring. There was some discussion on gaskets last year. Like most topics, there are differing points of views. Here is one that stated using 0-rings and copper gaskets were common practice in some applications. Same thread also has supporters for cosmetic or felpro only. What's the "right" answer? Heck if I know!

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...ts#post1556279

In any case, good luck getting to a resolution.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

Thanks for the post on reversion - waterbum. It was mentioned that using this cam with my Dart Pro Ones may create a problem? How would this be different than using the iron heads? The gaskets have also been ear marked as potential problems. How do we find what is actually the problem? Or, do we just keep changing things until the problem goes away? This might be a long and expensive process!

Thanks again for your input. It is appreciated.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

Reversion? Maybe I missed it but what exhaust manifolds or headers?

Waterin both engines and wants to replace block? I would be betting on intake gaskets and a LOT cheaper. You can usually tell if it is pushing water by the gaskets. At least when I have had trouble you could see it.

Just my opinion and I am no expert. Oh my exhaust exit under swim platform and I run turndowns under the water. Never had reversion issues and on my third year. 2 years with blown 525 and this year with a warmed over 502mag mpi with CMI elbow tops. Hope you find it easy.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

Were the intakes checked w/a feeler gauge prior to installation ? Last year a buddie put two new intakes w/o doing this. Got to check to see if any gaps between the manifold and head. When I took the manifold off it was clear as day the "crush" was greater on the top by the water passages than the bottom.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

[QUOTE=Rebel_ do we just keep changing things until the problem goes away? This might be a long and expensive process!
[/QUOTE]

Guessing is crazy and if your engine builder wants to do this on your dime and/or time then it's your decision to stay with him or not.

Our guesses are guesses, but at the same time we are not there to check things methodoligically (sp?) so all we can do is convey are things we've seen.

So what do you do ? My advice, again, is to check the easy things one by one.

#1 Reversion will show it's face after idling for a while by leaving water traces in the exhaust manifold runners. Take them off after idling and look. Not much $$$ to do this.

#2 Intake manifold leakage is very common, as you can see by the responses. Remove intakes and check/measure for this. Even slight head and/or block deck machining can cause this to happen. + There are many different intake gasket thicknesses and patterns, so it could be as simple as this.

Here's a possibility/guess (since I wasn't there to see/measure/check) on the builders last water leak fixed by replacing the block deal. It's very possible installing new block only restored enough deck height that the intake manifolds sealed. :eek: Where, they could have noted how much deck material and/or head surface they removed and milled intake manifold to proper dimensions to restore proper clearance. And/or used different thickness intake gasket. Above, just thrown against the wall.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

The exhaust flow for an iron GM head is about 200cfm at .6 lift. My Valako worked AFR's flow about 300cfm at .6 lift. My guess is that reversion is worse because the exhaust is flowing backwards easier as well. As far as solving these nagging problems, some people learn to do the work themselves, some people pay lots of money for the top notch builders and mechs. that stand behind their work, and others stick to stock Mercruiser power because of it's reputation for reliability. Good luck with fixing your problem.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

I had same problem as patriyacht,my old 540 had a 228/234 at .050 cam ,merlin heads that flowed 10% better than gm iron heads,lightning headers with captains call and never had even a hint of reversion. I reworked the 540 with cam a few degrees bigger plus afr cnc'd heads that flowed 25-30% more (over 300 cfm on exhaust) and motor reverted so bad at idle it would stall within 30 seconds of idling. There is no way my motor went from running reversion free to sucking so much water it wouldn't even idle from a couple of degrees of cam timing,it was definately the high flowing heads that caused it. I WOULD NOT blame your blocks unless they are gen v's and have terrible leaks from oddball water passages. You need to pressure check the motors and find your leaks or idle them and immediately pull a manifold to check for water. As far as your copper head gaskets and o-ringed blocks,I always thought that set-up was for drag racing blower motors running 20 plus lbs of boost on alcohol usually without any water even in block,seems like I have heard they are leak prone but I might be wrong but I would not consider it under any circumstances in a n/a 700 hp marine application. This isn't a personal attack in anyway so please don't take it that way but between these 651 cams which put your tq peak too high and are limited in top end due to weight of valvetrain and lifters plus some of the other issues you are having-DOES YOUR MOTOR BUILDER KNOW WHAT HE"S DOING?? Smitty

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

What are you seeing as far as oil and water temps?
I had a little milk on the sticks from running too cold up here on Lake Michigan.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

The water temp on Lake Ozark is now about 87 degrees. My oil temps are running a little on the cold side, but then again, I've never had it running long enough to get them up.

Just spoke with the engine builder. He had run an air compression test with 16lbs and did find the copper gaskets leaking. He said that they were definitely leaking. Now, he is looking for gaskets that will seal. He, also, said that there was a wire used with the copper gaskets that had to be considered when sealing it up? Does anyone have any suggestions? I asked whether this wire could come out, but evidentally that would entail quite a bit of work. I am looking for seals that would work. Thanks.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

Ditto on JC's comment. I have a naturally aspirated 496 (454 4.250 stroke) with aluminum Brodix BB-2's on it. First time started, engine was perfect, however on the first water test, I pulled the dipstick and not much of a change in level, but oil was chocolate milk. Went home pulled the thermostat out,put in a moroso restrictor in thermostat housing , changed oil, and started on hose... no water in oil, problem fixed, or so I thought..... next water test yielded yet another chocolate shake. Now I'm pi$$ed. Take it home, off comes the intake, and what do I see but clean water sitting on top of lifter galley splash pan. I immediately replaced intake gaskets and also heli-coiled all intake bolt holes in heads. Took the damn thing back to the lake and ran the snot out of it with no problems afterward. Seems the high water pressure took it's toll on intake gaskets near the back water passages, and all that was needed was a decrease in pressure, and some new gaskets. I would also highly recommend heli-coiling your intake bolt holes on heads, at least the ones directly surrounding the water crossovers and passages.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

Had similar problems, I found studing with Cometic gaskets to be the resolve. The 3 layer gasket allows for some slippage between the block and heads thus eliminating the gasket problem. It worked for me.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

Cometic gaskets. Are they the best? Will they fit with the wire that was placed in the heads because of the copper gaskets used? I am not sure why a wire was placed in the first place, but as I understand it would be difficult to remove.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

You say a wire? I guess you mean the motor is O-ringed. Good question. I still think this will fix it for you. Any other thoughts? Any builders?

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

The wires are called o-rings,the block or the heads (usually the block) has grooves machined into it to hold them in place. A regular gasket will probably never seal now unless block or heads are resurfaced flat. I talked to a tractor pull buddy of mine who o-rings his blocks and runs copper head gaskets (alcohol blower motors running 25-30 psi of boost) he also builds his own boat motors for them little "clown boats" that have v-drives and weigh 800-1200lbs plus the motor,he told me he would NEVER consider copper head gaskets and o-rings on a marine motor as blocks set-up like that usually are for very short duration pulls and when on alcohol usually don't even run any cooling system or water in them.
As far as head gaskets,any decent head gasket will be fine once you get block flat again,I run felpro marine gaskets with 10-12psi of boost on my blown 540 and have NEVER had a head gasket issue,Smitty

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

I have also been told not to use copper gaskets on a marine motor. I have heard that the Fel-Pro will work, however I took out two sets before the Cometics in one season. I have about 200 hours on the current set with no milk!!!

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

Thanks for the replies. I will call the builder and request that he resurface the heads. I want to make sure that this problem is stopped. I don't know why he thinks the copper gaskets were the way to go. I know he does engine work on unlimited racing.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

Cometics or Performance Gasket Concepts. The latter you can get from Dean Gellner or I believe JC Performance can get Bob's gaskets.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

Sounds like you may be getting a little ahead of yourself. As suggested above, you should start with the basics.

Pressure check the cooling system including the power steering and oil coolers, pull a header to check for signs of water and make sure you have good crankcase venting.

Oil temps ideally should reach 212 and water around 140-150.

Oil will get slightly milky if your oil temps don't get up, there is always a lot of condensation at work with the wildly varying temps that boat motors see.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

I know the oil temp never reached 200. There is not a thermostat in the engine. Not sure about the water temp. Are you thinking that the cause might be reversion? The engine builder said that he found where the copper gaskets were leaking.

I called Cometic this am and the rep said they didn't have anything that would seal where the o-rings are. They would have to deck the block and then I might run into the problem of the piston hanging out of the hole.

I might need new blocks after all.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

Your blocks are o-ringed too ? :eek:

Can you collect damages and move on somewhere else ?

Heh, this builder may know high boost drag strip stuff, but in basic hp marine engines ?

Copper headgaskets w/o-ringed blocks in yhis build........oh my. :(

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

If you go back a few post you'll see his "engine builder" found the copper head gaskets and block o-rings leaking,Smitty

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

My bad, I was reading the posts as they arrived in my e-mail, not the first time it's skipped a few posts.

Thanks for pointing that out, I try and read everything before I post, but some days I get in a hurry.

How deep do they cut the grooves for "O" rings typically?

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

Based on a reply in a different thread from a respected engine builder (Dean Gellner - see below), I would suggest that you pursue the use of a different gasket with the o-ring set up you already have before you head down the road of resurfacing anything (just my opinion).


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And for all you folks saying do not use o-rings and copper gaskets in a marine environment - why, what will happen, what has been your experience using this comination?

I think many of us are here to learn (I know I am), so educate away.

Thanks.

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

Not having personally used copper head gaskets and o-rings on ANY block I am going to relay what friends of mine that have have told me-the set-up your asking about is for EXTREME motors,like ones running 20 plus pounds of boost and the copper gasket is really just a soft shim and is very difficult to get a perfect seal,especially on a marine motor that may see 25 plus psi of water pressure. The o-rings are really metal rings that you groove the block for and they are intended to seal the combustion chambers,not the water passages. The soft copper gasket is really just a shim to maintain cyl head to piston crown clearence and connect the water passages. They are leak prone,everything has to be perfect for them to seal,the guys I know using them don't even run a cooling system or any coolant when they use them so they are not concerned at all about water leaks.It would be azzanine to build a N/A 540 and put them on it for marine use. Look at rebel hearts problems,the engine builder chose to use them and they are leaking when pressure tested,its more of something you run to make 2000 hp on a short duration highly boosted motor like a tractor puller or top alcohol dragster. I also know a guy who had it done on a blown pontiac street strip car,he got water in his oil everytime he runs it (that was years ago). This is what I have been told,not personal experience,Smitty

Re: Water in on Sticks Again! Ideas?
 

Spoke with the builder this afternoon. He said that the o-rings were not in the block, but attached to the heads. The heads are going back to the machinist to "fill in" where the wire was. They are looking at Fel Pro or Cometic gaskets to use. I spoke with Jim V., who worked on my heads, and he thought the engine builder was going to use 1057 Fel Pros. He said he worked the heads to use this gasket. Do they need to use this same gasket or will any gasket work?

I've spoken about this before, but should I invest in set of flappers with straight pipes through the transom? Will this prevent any possible reversion through the exhaust? Thanks.