Engine building guru ?'s
 

Hey pros just have a couple of questions reguarding engine machining 101.

1)If an engine block was line bored, how long of a running time before dimensions would or could change?Would all caps be the same demension?or could one or two be different?


2)When disassembling a short block and you noticed a bent rod,would you check the bore for damage and could a bent rod cause a cylinder to go out of round? If the cylinder was on the border of SO-SO would you take the time to fix it right or just slap it together?


Thanks way in advance
Nordic95

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

These are just "IN GENERAL" questions.They could be "MY FRIENDS" blocks that I am asking about. :eek:

Nordic95

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

Deleted - you may want to change my quotes. Sorry. :eek:

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

I was kidding :D :D Put them back up silly. I need answers to my engine building woes,but I have to be a gentlman about it,no name calling or pointing fingers.I appreciate all the info you guys provide.I just trying to figure out why I went from,"you just need a valve adjustment"(old builder) to "the machine work on these blocks s--k" we need to do it right this time(this was from new builder). :eek:
Nordic95

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

Here is a picture of the rod that came out of the damaged cylinder that was over looked.Would this cause the out of round condition that would also oil down this cylinder?This rod came out of the stock running motor during the first build.


Thanks
Nordic95

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

Wow

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

You spelled that backwards,DUMMY.


Nordic95 :D

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

Its upside down MOM

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

When I look at the picture of the rod it looks like it has stock rod bolts and nuts. Arp nuts are usually 12 pt on connecting rods and most aftermarket rod bolt nuts are also black or polished looking from the extra treatments they get,not browish rust colored. Sounds like your "friend" needs some serious motor work to straighten out "his" problems he has found,Smitty

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

Thats what it is turning out to be,only a couple of hours run time after full machine work and rebuild now its back out and needs all machine work done again to make it right,almost sound like "He" got ripped off and didnt get what he paid for from first builder.But thats just my opionon.


Nordic95

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

Main cap bolt fatigue "could" result in main caps being out of spec.

If the assembly was lined honed properly, the specs usually remain constant unless you wipe out the main bearings.

Yes, a bent rod (especially if it has any linear twist) can cause uneven cylinder wear.

If the cylinder has no linear scatches that can be felt with your fingernail, no groove that can be felt at the top of the the bore, and it's within spec via dial bore gauge. You can finish hone that cylinder to remove any minor glaze and file fit a set of rings.

Money spent now will always result in money saved in the future.
Quality machine work is worth the additional expense and the additional downtime.

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

See thats the answer I was looking for,I paid for line boring and honing 20 hours ago,now different builder find all caps at different sizes and rear main way under,it started burning bearing with only 20 hours on it.New builder feels that this work was not performed by first guy at all.Now I have to pay twice.
One cylinder of same engine was oil soaked,new guy checked and hole is way out of round,first guy pulled bent rod out of this hole but I guess did not check it or just over looked it.There are grooves that were not removed from the cylinder wall the first time,now I have to pay again to have this cylinder sleeved it is so bad.
Thats why I'm asking if this stuff could have been done right but changed during 20 hours of use.

Nordic95

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

Nordic,were your blocks your original 502 blocks? 4 years ago I set my 502 block aside and started building a 540 using a merlin 2 aftermarket block. I ended up getting shafted on the merlin block and machine work,I ended up having a similar problem with the main caps. I bought the merlin block from a so called friend of mine,he got it from who knows where as a slight blem block. He insisted I use a "high end" machine shop that he dealt with out of town instead of the ones I trust and had used with good results before. The block was just supposed to need the cylinders finished and deck surfaced. As part of the deal of buying the block he dropped it off at Reichard racing in Owosso michigan. Turns out he talked me into using them because he knew it needed a ton of work to be straightened out because it was a merlin reject block and if I had taken it to a local shop they would have told me this before performing any work and I would have given him his piece of junk back. After waiting 4 months I finally get block back from them along with a machine work bill for 12 or 13 hundred dollars. For that price they decked block,line honed main bores,re-bored cam tunnel and finish honed cylinders,about 600-700$ worth of work locally. I wasn't thrilled with the final machine shop bill but paid it with the idea that it was top notch work.I get block back to my shop and I start doing some trial fitting of parts and measureing the work done,I measure the main caps with my dial bore gauge,#1 and #2 (the front ones),are .002 thousandths bigger than #3 and .00025 bigger than #4 and#5. I measure my 502 thats sitting on the stand next to it,the mains on it are all identical within .0002 of each other and also close to# 4& 5 on merlin block. I pull caps off both blocks,clean and re-torque them all,same measurements. The machine shop totally screwed up the align bore/hone job on the merlin block. I call them up the next day,of course they don't believe me and figure I'm some kid playing around with plastigauge and just enough knowledge to be dangerous so I make an appointment to take block back to them. Take a day off of work,drive 80 miles to their shop,unload block,they immediately measure #1 and #2,the guy admits they are "a little loose" but not past mmaximum spec,the block was 20 or 30 degrees from sitting in my truck and his bore gauge was 70 degrees from being in his heated shop. I ask him about that,claims it will make NO DIFFERENCE,first clue that these guys are UN-PROFESSIONAL. We agree to leave block there to warm up to room temp but he swears up and down its fine,just run it. I come back 6 hours later,first thing out of machinist mouth is-"we never touched your block or anything while you were gone,lets measure it". Shoves his dial bore gauge in it,# 1,2,3 are now within .0005 of each other,not .0025 off,he admits they are on the loose side but tells me again just run it,you'll be fine. I'm in disbelief that the caps were not nearly as far off as I had measured,I mean I measured them countless times and using my dial bore gauge as a comparator had clearly saw they were way off. Went home,put block in shop to warm up,let everything reached 70 degrees ambient,even used a infrared temp gun to make sure block was completely up to temp. Stuck dialbore gauge in #1 main,lo and behold it had gotten .0022-.0025 thousandths tighter than it was when it left my shop,rotated the gauge from the 12 oclock/6 oclock position to close to 9 oclock/3 oclock,it was still the same size it was when it left my shop-NOW CAP BORE WAS OUT OF ROUND .0025 :mad: The lying pricks had pulled #1&2 caps off,ground them down a couple thousandths and stuck them back on. Called them up,they refused to discuss it,said run it,it will be fine. I took it to another shop,they had to re-cut the caps and re-line bore it to get even close to being right,I ended up having to use a .010 under timing chain so much was cut out of the block.
Back to your question and my opinion on it,my stock 502 block that I measured has mains that are just about perfect,yours probably did too before the first "engine builder :rolleyes: " got his hands on it. Unless you blew your motor up or broke a crank or something I would not expect your mains to change in 20 hours let alone 200 hours. I have read that more mains with nothing wrong with them have been screwed up by incompetent machine shops doing line boring jobs than are done right and I bet its true in your case too,Smitty

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

This is what I'm thinking also,I did get shafted in more ways then one.It seams to me that first builder builds circle track engines and not marine engines.New builder has been explaining the difference to me as we go through this project. I had no idea that there was such a difference especialy in the machining process.I guess thats why there are engine builders and marine engine builders.I have learned a valuable lesson that I hope no one ever has to go through like I did.I am paying twice for what should have been done right from the begining and have now lost almost my whole summer and boating season to a smoth talking salesman that thinks he knows how to build marine engines.

Nordic95

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

Line BORED? not line honed? Unless they measured way out, or you changed main caps/broke something, thats rare on your motor. but if it was bored, its not a big deal IF the guy knows what he's doing. Cut the caps, bolt them up, and bore it like doing a cylinder. Should be good as new, and last forever. No change in sizes.

Can I assume that you can't say the name of the 1st builder for a reason? a locked thread :eek: from a while ago sounds familiar? So it seems that as you are talking about a NEW builder, that you did NOT get what was promised to you by the original builder. That sucks!!!

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

My opinion would be that the bent rod would cause excessive side load on the piston/rings which could damage the cylinder walls.

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

Nordic, it doesn't matter what application the engines I build are for, they all get done the same way, right. There is no excuse for a shop to do shoddy machine work. A drag or circle track engine needs top quality machine work just as much as a marine engine does. It really pi**es me off when people get screwed by bad and or over priced machine work. When I used to work in a local machine shop in the 80's and 90's, one of the biggest problems was hiring good people who care what kind of product they put out. They tell the boss "it's done" and the boss takes their word. Unfortunately, a shop owner can't check everything that goes out the door. That's why I do all the machine work and engine building in my shop.

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

Sounds about right to me,we did agree on a settlement,but it has cost me twice as much as that amount to fix all the f#$% ups.Did I mention the broken tool left inside for me?

Nordic95

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

Just what you always wanted, one of his tools worth 10 cents for the thousands that you lost.

Hopefully everone know who we are talking about, and you have saved someone else from getting burned by this jerk.

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

I got the broken allen wrench out in two minute.I have a feeling it may have caused an issue down the road if it fell out while running. :eek: Can you say ticking TIME BOMB. :mad:

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

You were almost screwed worse. I'm sorry, I assume you have something that you can't say the name. But I can.

Roccard Engines Sucks

I fyou want me to delete the name, I will.

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

Delete what????

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

I don't see anything :drink:

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

These came out of my Gen 5 that had 6 hours after the oil pump fell off and supposebly were tanked,cleaned,and re-bearinged.What are you thoughts?

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

That the metal floating around screwed the bearings, or that they were never changed in the 1st place.

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

The metal had to come from the old cams,the ones that the lifters installed backwards and ground groves into the lobes.Both motors were this way as well as both cams.

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

Yup!

Nice "custom" balance work he did to the big end of the rod. :eek:

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

Hopefully this first engine builder who appears to be INCOMPETENT slithers away and doesn't STEAL anyone else's hard earned cash. I have been burned on a smaller scale before so I completely understand,Smitty

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

Maybe that's why he was so insistent that all your noises where just because ' the rocker arms just need to be adjusted' :eek:

I really can't believe that there is more stuff you guys are uncovering. Unbelievable.

Good news is that you are going forward with this project, no longer backward.

You made a good decision to 'pony up' and switch places. Most of us would have fell for the schit and just brought them back for further degression.

And yes, your info has helped others in making choices already.

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

The funny part is that back on 8/22/06 I sent him the pictures and the findings after we ripped the motors apart,just to show him what he gave me.I also asked him to reconsider the deal and try to help me out of this situation.But till this day not a word.I would have been happy with a"sorry,but we already have a deal" or something,maybe offer the help out with the extra machine work that needs to be done.The best part is that he requested those cams and lifters back because he says there is nothing wrong with either of them and he will reuse them :eek: :eek: .I feel sorry for the next sucker :mad:


Nordic95

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

Not Another Addition To The Tool Section !!!

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

Does the phrase "Adding another nail to your own coffin" come into play here?

Nordic,

If I recall correctly, you suggested the deal of a payoff and exchange of parts. You also told me that it MAY cost you more to go somewhere else to fix the issues. You wanted out of the relationship and agreed and accepted the offer between the two of you with NO recourse and a GAG order.

Mike had made several attempts to resolve the issues, including taking the motors back and making them 100% for NO charge. You declined, made the deal and as you said "rolled the dice".

The bent rod came out of the motor BEFORE Mike did anything to it correct?

Is there anything I have left out? I hope Mike is keeping track of THIS thread!

Nothing but the facts!

Dave

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

Dave you are 100% right,but when I made this deal I also told Mike and you this was to fix the issues I knew and expected to see with the metal in the engines.I in no way expected to find that I paid for machine work that was not done and work that was over looked so to say,in other words this work was done before any deal and was so shoddy it now has to be done all over again at my expense,if he didnt do it right the first and second time why should i have trusted him to do it right the third time?????? Then to leave broken tools in the engine,how do you explain that????? I asked Mike and he was fully aware of it and said he left it there because he was in a rush!!!!! He is an engine shop,I'm sure there was another nut on another engine he could have just borrowed for the mean time.I sent both of you guys the email with my findings and a call to you to discuss these finding and no one could get back to me to explain or discuss.If you read these post I never metioned any names,its not up to me to control who post what here,its an open forum.I feel that these people here are my brothers and fellow boaters,we share the same passion and we all work hard for our money and enjoy our time with family on the water,he not only ripped me off in money terms but my vacation and the rest of the summer to spend with my kids boating and spending time together.If I have to get SUED by him and I can keep just one fellow boater from getting screwed,it would be worth it to me.And I'm sure there may be one or two people here who agree with me.I have nothing against you Dave,I like you,but you have to understand my position also.

Nordic95

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

I can't believe that you are STILL defending this scum.

What did he tell Nordic about having a 3rd party there to verify the disassembly? I believe that was supposed to be part of teh original deal.

Nordic DOES state that rod is from before the rebuild. He asked about issues that it would cause.

Makes me wonder where you did the dyno runs on yor new motors, that had loony tune numbers all over the place? Roccard have his hand in that one too?

Nordic may have accepted the offer/gag deal, and he has not said a word about the deal. But just like you, who is on here defending this junk builder and seems to know what deal Roccard made, there are also some of us that actually know something about motors that know the deal, and are not under a gag order, and are not going to let someone else get screwed by Roccard like Nordic did.

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

Guys ,

At my expense this engine builder has been exposed.I need this info to stay on the board for other potential customers to see.Please keep the name calling and slander at bay.Just the facts and pictures are enought to ge my point across.I would hate for OSO to delet this now.


Thanks Nordic95

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

You don't know all the facts. Has he done work for you? Have you met Mike?...SHUT UP!

Not part of the aggreed "deal"....Facts...SHUT UP!

Bring your 23' Bayliner up to the Bay and I'll show you the numbers. Speed speaks for itself. Why do I have to defend myself to you? Mike had nothing to do with my build or dyno runs.

First of all I mediated the deal as a courtesy to Mike and Anthony. So I know the deal. (facts). I am not saying that the work done by Mike was 100% and am not sticking up for him except in character. He has been willing to work with Anthony, who I like as well, to correct ANY problems. As for the deal, it is NONE of your business.....SHUT UP!

If you are implying that I don't know motors...Not something you want to challenge me on. I don't do it as a profession, but it has been a passion all my life. I've been around a few and blew up a few in my time. So again...SHUT UP.

Why are you attacking me? you don't even know me...have we met? Have we spoke on the phone? Not that I'm aware of. Personal attacks about me and my motors and my boat. Jerk!!

Anthony started a thread which lead to this discussion, which lead to this and that and everyone knew who he was talking about. The peanut gallery just loves to beat people up.

Steve what are you doing about this?

Dave

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

Showing your high quality posts here. Good choice that Roccard made. NOT

You are way way way out of your league here. I've read and seen what you know on the thread on SW.

Not a single bad word was said about your motors or boat. Just a question about your dyno runs. I'm not attacking YOU. I'm attacking the guy who SCREWED Nordic 95, that you keep defending. The pictures tell the story.

What is this? Cry to the board about the facts of Nordic getting screwed, because YOU don't like it being brought out? You are the one posting like a 2 year old here, calling people jerks, and telling them to shut up. Why don't you get over it, and admit that Roccard SCREWED Nordic, and leave it alone!

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

Duke,
Why is it that every thread you are involved with on this site, you piss people off? Out of my league? Don't see it.

Go away, back to the Bayline site and harass some of your like.

Dave

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

The only person pissed off is you, and thats because you can't stand it that your crappy engine builder friend got show to not have a clue as to how to build a motor.

Re read the thread on SW. You didn't even know what heads/cams to use in your motors. The list of things you don't know about building engines is too long to post.

Your Bayliner posts are funny. They show how inmature you really are.

Re: Engine building guru ?'s
 

Alright Doug...you have already been thrown off this site and others for using mutiple screen names and stirring the pot. I have had enough of your crap.

As far as SW, you praised me for my build, and I was asking questions about what has worked for others, like most people would. Do not question my ability. It was MY checkbook that bought my parts after many opinions. I did not go with a combination that was always popular, but the results prove it all.

Crawl back into your little hole, and your internet life of facades, mutiple screen names (Zone 5, Formula Fastech, Summit987) and mutiple personalities and go away!

I'm gone for the weekend BOATING.....later

DAve