Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

Changed the oil in my totally rebuilt HP500's at 8 hours. I'm learning this week that both oil filters had copper color & silver color metal in them. (waited for a cutting tool) Now what??

History... Both blocks were rebuilt with new heads, cams, valves, bearings, intake and headers, etc. Reused the stock HP500 Crank.

I had been chasing an oil pressure problem on one motor (port) and a oil temperature problem on the other (starboard). Oil change seemed to help the temperature problem a little but the pressure on the port starts at 40PSI and drop to 20-22PSI after running a while.

The port motor also started leaking oil (after this 8 hr oil change) a bit from what I believe to be the rear seal. (Hard to tell) Nothing too major and oil levels never dropped too low, but I have added a couple quarts to the port motor. Nothing added to the Starboard side. I'm also beginning to see a bit more "exhaust" from the port side at start up. Too little to tell if it's oil or just a lean condition.

Both motors run good for now...

I'm changing the filters again tomorrow and cutting them open to see what I have. I'm expecting to see more metal. If so... what suggestions are out there as for my next step?

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

This is exactly what just happened to me I had 20 hours on 502 rebuilt motors and same oil consumtion on one motor and smoking at start up as you.I had to pull motors and Im in the process of rebuilding them again with new builder.Turns out last builder did a shabby job on machine work :mad: .I hope this is not your situation and that it is only break in material .Who did your rebuilds?Good luck and keep us posted.


Nordic95

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

What was the exact cause? Bearings? The engine assembler (not builder)better stand behind them... we'll see.

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

Blue,

I cannot look at your filters but .... if there is copper material there, it is more than likely from the bearings and the engine should NOT be run any longer without being disassembled and checked. The longer you run it, the more damage you will do.

If nothing else, you need to take the filter to your builder and let HIM make the decision. If you stop now, it might be a simple repair. If you keep running it it could turn into a big mess and to be honest with you, its not fair to your builder to ask him to stand behind all the damage if you keep running it and it destroys the engine. If you have a warranty, he should be the one you are asking these questions of.

Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

I just posted pictures of my new engines being put together today.Mine was to large of tolerances in the main bearings,I paid to have blocks line honed but when we checked them the tolerances were all over the place and to large,hence low oil pressure.One of my cylinders was so far out of round we had to sleeve it to save from buying new pistons,I think this was damage from a bent rod that was caused before I bought the boat.But first builder did not see this damage.This is what was causing oil to burn.Not saying that any of this could or would pertain to you,I'm just stating my sh^&y situation I'm in.I learned my lesson with using a non reputable marine engine builder.

Nordic95

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

Thx Bill... I'm not planning on running it until we can identify the problem. Just sux that the boat was splashed 4th of july and 2 months later (14 hours) I'm done. It's a crime.

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

Damn!

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

If it make you feel any better I had my engines out three times this summer and only have 20 hours on them since the early spring. :(

SU$KS

Nordic95

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

Let me check....

Nope, no better. :mad:

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

Sorry I tried. :rolleyes:

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

one of the lessons I learned.........

once motors are running get them to temp, shut them down and pull oil sample (Go to NAPA and order kit, ~$14). Pull sample and see what it says.

Change oil and do it again but run motor for 15 minutes or so.

Compare notes, call analyst for his insight.

If all okay, change oil and run again for about an hour, then pul lsample again.

Pull a sample EVERY time you change oil just accept it as part of boat maintenance. OVer time lab will develop trend lines and be able to see a LOT of info.

Then you will know very early on if a problem exist. It adds 10 to 15 days to engine install to do this, and $14 to a oil change, but it is smart, you spend less than $50 at point of install, and KNOW if there is going to be a problem. If there is builder can rectify fast, if everything here checks out, and you later have a problem installer is place to look.

longer term you will know your motor far better tha n99% of boaters who will ever live...

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

Bill gave you best advice. You are having a bearing failure. Most likely due to improper clearance. I also have seen the GM cam bearings deterate. I always replace them on rebuilts with 1 piece bearings.

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

What's the advantage of one piece bearings, especially if the clearance is off?

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

Q?: If the copper is from the bearings... what is the most logical answer to the silver flakes?

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

The silver is the outside lining, the copper is the bearing that is being ground down :eek:
Sorry I have been in your shoes also....

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

The cam can also have a copper like appearance when it grinds down! It happened to me at 20 hours oil pressure was low because a lifter came apart and took out a lobe in the cam. The low oil pressure was the space between the lifter and the block.

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

Put a magnet against the flakes. If they are magnetic, cam material. Non magnetic, silver is the babbit of the bearings and copper is the core of the bearings and you have already wore though the bearing surface. If it is not knocking now, you dodged an expensive bullet.

BT :cool:

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

I think we all are learning the expensive way why Merc motors cost so much. I'm on the third engine in my little Donzi, and I have maybe 15 hours on it in over three years. :(

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

Both motors start and run great. No noise, knocks, pings, etc at all. They produce great power, but I'm gentle on them. Is there any possible chance that some of this crap could have been trapped in the oil cooler from before and is just now showing up? Or is this Wishfull thinkin? The oil cooler, Crank and carbs are the only items I didn't replace during the rebuild. If it's a cam bearing...is it most likely due to a clearance issue? Meaning... as long as I replace the bearings and get the clearance correct... I should be OK? I want to be sure I understand this before speaking with my assembler. Don't want to tear this out and fix it, just to have the same problem in another 8 hours.

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

I did replace the stock cams with crane 731's in the copper color (ordered it myself) If a lifter or spring came apart and started tearing into the cam... I'd for sure hear something wouldn't I?

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

Are you sure you replaced the lifters back in there bore properly????? That is exactly what happened during my first build,the builder didnt know there were two ways to install the lifter!!!Hence all the metal in my engines thay wiped them out.


Nordic95

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

I'm not sure of anything... I didn't do the work myself. What do you mean 2 different ways?

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

The right way :D and the wrong way :mad: These are pictures of my cams after 14 hour of run time.The lifter has a tie bar that connects the two lifter together,the tie bar has an UP arrow on it.But you can take the lifters and spin them 180 degrees and then flip the whole assembly 180 degrees and they will fit right back into the block but with the arrow down.By doing this the wheels now run on a 45 degree angle to the cam and cause the damage by the side of the wheel cutting into the lobe of the cam,see the pictures.

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

When It happened to me I did not here anything different The motor just seem to run rough at idle and had low oil pressure about 10 psi. When the engine builder took it apart he said It was a detonation. To me it looked like the tie bar from the roller lifter just broke and the lifter started to sipn in the block taking out the cam. Both motors were put together the same way and only one broke. It seems to me like a manuf. defect of the lifter!

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

Hey Jim,

Definitely bearing clearance issues. Oil pressure is real low for running conditions. Just some advice, Buy new oil coolers. I don't know what happen to your original motors, but I have cleaned an oil cooler for an hour and still got metallic crap running out. Then I cut the oil cooler in half and I wasn't even close to getting all the metal out. See what your builder is using for rod clearances, usually .0025 is good for a stock motor and .003 for a higher performance motor. Check around w/ other builders and see what they recommend. Good luck and sorry to hear it.

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

My engine had low oil pressure when warm (502 EFI).
Complete tear down showed all bearings totally waisted and and one spun main bearing. Hard to see if the bearing tolerances was right, engine has been rebuild by former owner. However I discovered from reading here at OSO that it?s crucial to have the right oil bypass valve in the block.
Mine had the wrong one, wrong for remote filter and cooler.

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

I must be parking my boat too close to that Blue A/T cause I'm having his kinda luck. Thanks Don. I assumed most of this. Looks like both motors will be pulled out and tore down again. I'll have to decide when and where this is going to be done. Might just look to boost the power a wee bit while they're out.

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

Well... we cut open the 2 new filters and still had some flakes but nothing compared to the first ones. Starboard motor next to nothing... Port, little more. I'll be taking the filters to my assembler on Monday to see what he says... I'll post pics next week. Damn this sux! 2 years boatless and now after 2 months...boatless again. :mad: :( :mad: :(

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

man, go to NAPA and order an oil analsis kit, get two of them, they are $14 each. Follow instructions, mail to the physcial address, 48 hours later you have a good report, take that PLUS the oil filter to engine builder, this will tell you AMAZING things. Best $28 you can spend in this process.

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

Dean;

I think I'm going to make this a std. in my maintenance going forward, however don't you think it's a little late for oil analysis now? I know the motors have to be torn down. What else can the report show other than there's metal in my oil? Just in a more detailed way?

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

I will send mine from the failed motor in an e-mail......... I am at home and it is at the office.........

Not sure what else it could show that the noil does not, which is why you have it done, cause no one knows what it has to say.....

If it was big $$$ it would be different, but for less than $30, I think I would want to make sure there is nothing left untold....

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

Good point... I guess the best answer I could get was what I already know... I'll give it go this weekend.

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

Blue,
Is your filter after the cooler?? Some say it is better to filter hot oil, and replace the cooler. I think having the filter after the cooler will catch what debris is left in the cooler.
I had an oil psi issue this past weekend and found my guage is reading low compared to a mechanical gauge. But I did open my filter and found a lot of metal after tearing the paperapart. I do not see any copper material. I had an engine builder tell me to look at the pieces and if you see silver on one side and copper on the other side.. It is definitly bearing material.

I am wondering if others have the experience of opening oil filters over time to see what a good engine produces in the line of debris in the filter??I think the oil analysis is good, but takes a long time. In my case the oil psi looks good at idle.. 185* oil temp at 850rpm gives me 52# oil psi... but I am concerned about the amout of metal in the filter.

So if everyone could please open thier filters and show us.. we would all learn a little more about the engine survival issue...

thanks
Dick

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

I think so, I'm no expert... but I believe this is how the stock HP500 set up worked.

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

Bearings...bearings..bearings..

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

Sorry Blue, the oil pressure combined with the gold and silver flakes mean probably main bearings shot. No noise just mean you have caught it before serious damage. Do your self a large favor and tear it down before you hurt the block.

I open oil filters minimally at the end of season every year. I have noticed some very slight silver flakes (one every 20 pleats or so) but never had a problem. If you see many silver and gold flakes each pleat, trouble for sure. I've had that and know.

A word to the wise is sufficient.

BT :cool:

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

maybe this will make him feel better ...pulled my motors Jan 29th ....Still not back in ..... hope it works out ...m

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

needs to be 30lb bypass ....less than 5 bucks from GM ...

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

You should always replace the oil coolers when installing a rebuilt engine. Your installer should have insisted you did that. There is no way to get the metal chips out of the cooler and it is so inexpensive it is foolish not to replace it. Definitely replace it before you run the engine again. Replace the oil lines also.

Re: Found Copper & Silver metal in oil filter...
 

I am in the same boat as you are. My new 540s are out of my boat cause i had a bearing failure and broke the crank. At least you caught it early.