Maybe the cam was just bad???? It's strange that the cam rounded off so bad that it had grooves worn into it. The roller tips on the rockers are also ruined. I would like to know what caused it. Like I said before the stud girdles were on backwards and had to be pried off with a pry bar and hammer. The new builder had never seen them on like this and had no idea how they got them on in the first place. I couldn't tell you if they were or not so here's a pic. Anyone know if these are right?

Not to harp on just one issue of a bigger story, but if the spring pressure was wrong, would all of your lobes be toasted? When my tappets splayed, it was every last one of them.

I know you are angry, just trying to learn from your misfortunate experience.

I ruined all the roller tips first. Maybe that gave enough clearance for the rest of the lobes not to be worn off???
It really didn't have much run time.


Mistakes happen and hi perf. motors break. You would just expect that you builder would stand behind his product for more than 1 trip to the lake. If I ordered a motor from Teague, Sterling, Zul, Mercury, Pfaff, Peto, Boostpower, Illmor, etc. I bet they would. I also bet they wouldn't come up with some lame excuse about 10 an lines ruining the motor. I'll be going over the invoice, parts list, and having some people go through this motor, if I find him neglegent, or charged for something that isn't there, I'm going to sue his a$$. If I can't pin point why it happened I'll still be quick to let everyone know how well this guy stands behind his work..............

Tailight warranty only.:mad:

Had a good look today. The springs had three spacers in them to space them 130 thousands and 50 thousands on the keepers to increase spring pressure. From what we can figure the he was trying to make the wrong springs work with this cam. Since the heads were set up for hydraulic roller from AFR he used the springs and figured he would space them up until he got the spring pressure he wanted. Worst part about it is that when I dropped the heads off I told him that my distributer would exchange the springs at no cost. What ended up happening is that since they were spaced so much (180 thousands total) they were collapsing and binding with the 700+ lift cam. The motor was doomed from the get go because of the valve train. The valves he put in have shiny spots on them from being bent side to side from all the spring pressure. All the roller tips have wear marks, some have grooves starting to wear in them. The cam has grooves on all the lobes with the front lobes almost wearing off. The cam didn't have the proper cam button in it. You can see on the end it's so beat up that you can barely read the numbers in the casting on it. It was doomed no matter what the spring pressure was. Time bomb waiting to happen. The distributor, set up by the builder, didn't have a bronze bushing in it. The new builder said it was a time bomb waiting to happen as well. So in the end the entire valve train was set up improperly and destined to die.

The heads were only ground on on the intake side. The floor of the intake has grind marks on it. I was told that these AFR heads are so good out of the box that you should never need to port them. Not only that I was also told that if you port one side you should port the other side?????? Why would you only port the intake side on a blower motor? I was also told that you never touch the floor of the runners, you only port the sides and top. The actual intake ports are so ground on that you can visually see they are no longer straight and you would have to cut the intake gaskets so make them fit. I'm saying the intake ports are not rectangle where they meet the actual intake gasket and intake, they have curved edges from so much grinding.

The thing ran super rich, all the pistons have black soot all over them. This guy was paid to set up the carbs, boost reference them and paid to tune it once it was up and running. Nice work.............

Hard to tell what died first, especially after looking at the valve train. The missing cam lobes could have blocked oil passages anywhere. The fuel could have washed the front cylinders down and started to melt them.

The motor is supposedly a 548. The bore size is 4.50, it may be able to be salvaged. Although one of the mains will have to be welded up and it will need two main caps.

Remember that after we heard the original rod knock, we took it back to the builder for him to listen to. That's when he said it just needed a valve adjustment and that it was just fine. He wrote on the receipt that it had noise but that it was coming form the bell housing. He also wrote for or five reasons for motor failure, just to let everyone know.:rolleyes:
He wrote that improper fuel systems will lead to detonation and ruin a motor. (the motor ran pig rich with 8an supply lines and 8 an bypass line on the regulator)
He wrote that improper cooling lines on the intercooler will ruin a motor. (again it shows no signs of detonation, even the bottoms of the pistons are not discolored in any way)
He wrote that improper oil line sizes will ruin a motor. (we've already established that 10an with swept an fittings, is sufficient for oil lines)
He wrote that insufficient cooling lines will ruin a motor. (This has a off shore pick-up, with 1 1/4 lines and a sea strainer, what more could you do?)

He basically knew the motor was junk, wrote up a bunch of trash to cover his a$$ and sent it on it's way to blow up somewhere else. As I stated before the valves varied so far in adjustment after leaving his shop that it's obvious he never adjusted them.

But here's the kicker.........After letting us leave his shop, after dissembling the motor, I found a zerk fitting where the oil temp sending unit was. Actually the new builder had it on the table with all the dissembled parts. I asked him what it was for and he showed me the spot on the back of the motor below the distributer where he pulled it out of. That just happened to be where I put the oil temp sending unit. Now why would some one remove that and put a zerk fitting there? (Zerk fitting was a cheap "plug") I guess so it would get run and no one would notice the climb in temperature before the motor put a rod through the side of it.
If that isn't one of the shadiest moves ever.............

Getting screwed is tuf, some times it's just tuf-enuf to make you want to quit boating all together................Then again what comes around goes around. ;)

theres a shop in NJ that sleeves the main bearing bores with an almost like an oversized bearing insert. JT (Jaze Tech) told me about that.
Your motor was the work of a moron, What shop dosen't own a paper clip at least and check for .050 coil bind ? I've never heard of such stupidity. BBB

Every motor builder has to walk before they run.
They must fully understand every basic principle, and do thier homework before attempting to build an all out blower motor or something exotic. They also need to put their tail between thier legs and sometimes deal with another builder to ask questions and end up coming out of it all with a great motor, as well as enhanced knowledge, instead of assuming everything and entering uncharted waters.

Then there are the clowns that claim to be the "undisputed authority" on offshore engines... and their engines grenade after 6 hrs.... go figure... But they continue to do a "Marion Barry" when the truth comes out. That is what I experienced.

I did a favor for a friend last week that has a Skater with outboards. I found out a few problems and told him that I'll drop one of the gearcases for free, so he doesn't have to bring the boat to the guys shop.
In actuality I'm not only qualified to drop the case , but I could have rebuilt it too.
This friend did not want to let his mechanic know that anyone else touched his boat. I just ended up changing gear lube.
He stated that he didn't want his mechanic to talk to me, and he knows everything. If he thinks he knows everything, he is setting himself up for a big fall. Even the guy that makes minimum wage sweeping the floor at a shop might know or notice something and his input may be of importance.
His mechanic is working on so many boats, he may have overlooked something I had seen, and could have been advised by even me. BBB

I bet you found the cause of your engine failure. The valve springs AFR uses for hyd roller cams are good for about .650 lift. If he shimmed them .130 and then he used a cam with .700 lift, it's a wonder the engine would turn over without breaking a rocker or bending a pushrod. The metal from the cam lobes took out everything else. Sorry to hear about your trouble.

Also, AFR has one of the best intake ports in the industry. If he ground on them, he hurt the flow. I would send them back to AFR or to a good head porter like Jim V to see what can be done to fix them. Once you decide what you're going to do, out this moron so no one else gets taken by him. Good luck.

I think Isky is the brand. I found some new roller lifters the other day at a dragster shop that had no needle bearings?? They are supposed to be bulet proof. If I build a roller motor in the near future, I will probably give them an experiment.

Never heard of a hard landing from inadequate pressure. What Rpm are you seaking of.

As the novice in the field, I would agree with that.

Generally a little too much pressure is better than too little. The jumping and hard landing is usually called valve float and is very damaging to lifters and valvetrain generally. Most hyd roller cams use about 150 seat pressure, 450 open and are good for 5800 rpms. I have freinds that have increased that to 170-180 with no ill effects trying to get 6000 rpm without float. Most small solid rollerslike the ones used in boats or street cars use about 210 seat pressure 600 open and are good for about 7000 rpm before float. The problem with higher pressure is higher heat in the needle bearings in the wheel of the roller and so faster wear. So we're balancing the rpm's we want to run with the amount of wear we're willing to put up with.

I have heard most of that. I thought valve float was when there was not enough spring pressure to keep the valve lined up inside the guide. Cauing valves to hit as they were passing each other.
What about flat tappet - solid lifter type? You have a preference for those?

Valves hitting each other is pretty unusual. In most heads the valves are almost parrallel. Maybe in a Hemi. Most times a valve sticks in the guide and a piston hits it. While rollers have a lot of flaws, they seem to be making the most hp and getting about the same reliability. Sorry for the thread hijack.:D

" I found some new roller lifters the other day at a dragster shop that had no needle bearings?? They are supposed to be bulet proof. If I build a roller motor in the near future, I will probably give them an experiment. "

Were they Joe Schubeck lifters by any chance? I am running Schubeck Roller X lifters. So far they have lived..

This guy that built your motor BadK.. needs to be taught a lesson!! Hate to hear this type of story.. good luck with it..

Bad,

It sounds like you found the cause in the valve springs. They were probably binding up solid and that is what killed the lifters and the rockers :(

As far as the stud girdles go, I have only seen one set like that, but I did not think it was even possible to put a set on wrong on a big block because of the valve angles. Of course I have never tried it but I guess a big enough hammer would make it work !

It absolutely amazes me how much of this type of stuff goes on. Especially in this day and age where there is more than enough information available for any decent engine builder to build almost any engine and not have problems. You would not beleive how much of this type of stuff I fix at my shop. It really hurts because it hurts the reputation of all engine builders and machine shops :(

I am going to repeat what I just said in another post too:

I know a lot of guys will say this is not neccessary but .... what I tell my customers is to run the boat for at least an hour or so very easy. Keep the rpms down, maybe to 3000 or so with a lot of varying rpms. Then change the oil, cut open the filter and look for any problems. Only after you have done that should you go out and hammer it. Unless the engine is broken in on a dyno I personally feel it is best to run it real easy for as long as you can stand it. Just go putt around the river for an hour or so, it will be the best leasure hour you can spend. Then change the oil and filter.

A marine engine is constantly loaded to full power. A good comparison is to hook your trailer up to your truck, find a fairly steep hill that never ends and put your foot to the floor for miles at a time. I dont think any of us would dream of doing that to a brand new truck .... why do it to your new boat engine. The longer you can take it easy on a new engine, the longer it will last.

Just my opinion,

Hope the new engine lasts a long time !!!!

Bill

I'm glad you found the problem, its obvious the engine builder was a hack who had no idea what he was doing and made some real glaring errors. When the times is right out this dirtbag like Nordic 95 outed Roccard with his lies and amateurish engine assembly mistakes so he can crawl under a rock and stay there.
Its easy to monday morning quarter back what happened but what I see that would have avoided as much damage as happened would have been a good dyno session,as soon as motor didn't run tight and lash couldn't be maintained it could have been figured out instead of being driven until destroyed. I'm not blaming you in any way don't get me wrong, I'm just saying test running this motor on the dyno should have revealed there was problems,it should have been part of this so called "motor builders" program and if he is ANY kind of a real business man he should step up to the plate and start taking steps towards rectifying this mess he cobbled together although I'm sure you have no intentions of letting him any where near any motor ever again,Smitty

Oh it's coming Smitty. :blaster:

THey are make by Isky. Not sure of the spelling.

How you treat a young engine dictates how it will act when it is old.

Bad:

Sorry for your dilema and troubles, boating is suppossed to be fun and this is definitly not!
We can all pretty much tell by actions and descriptions that this guy is a real "Hack" enough said on that subject.
Over the last several years I keep reading about and hearing these stories of so called "knowledgeable marine performance engine builders". The real moral of this story for other OSO'ers is that when it comes time for a marine high performance engine rebuild use one of the reputable, knowledgeable, proven engine builders such as Gellner, Crockett, Chief, Pfaff, Mercury,Peto, Baker, Teague, JC, etc., etc., all OSO'ers now the "Good List" and stay away from these backyard "Hacks" that create such misery.
As for suing the guy, good luck, its probably going to be like getting blood out of a turnup!
This is a overpriced lesson that no boater needs to learn. Don't buy your motors "Twice"!

Sorry again that you have to be a lesson sadly learned.
Keep your spirits up though, with good help you will get that great looking rig back together properly and runnin just fine!

Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

Those look like Dart stud girdles. If they are, then there is a decent chance they will not fit correctly on the AFR's . They are made specifically for the Dart's by Dart.

This will have to be looked into before re-assembly of course.

Dart canted the valves an extra two degrees to improve flow. This also resulted in custom guidplates when using dart heads. I believe they have them now , but used to have to use comp cams adjustable ones or cut and weld. BBB

I finally have somewhat of an answer. Of course there could be numerous reasons why the bottom end of this motor came apart, and with the damage so extensive there is probably no way to know for sure. What I do know however is that we sent the cam back to see if Comp would warranty it and they denied the claim because of "excessive spring pressure and or coil bind."

They put it in writing, so I now know that for what ever reason the motor died, it was doomed from the get go and would have died regardless because the valve train was not set up properly.

This motor was set up and built by Tim at Tuf-Enuf. The same idiot who is all over HotBoat posting about building motors and putting solid roller lifters on hydraulic cams. He has a dirty dog hair filled "shop" in his back yard. He has no dyno, and of course no warranty on his work what so ever. Whit all his great knowledge, and 10 months worth of work this wonderful blower motor he built was able to last one whole trip to the lake.

After the trip, and after the horrible rod knock, he "adjusted the valves" and sent us on our way again.

This guy is a shady as is gets, after having this happen, I've found quite a few other poeple he done similar things to.

I'm starting to think this may be the first high hp marine blower motor he's built. I can't find anyone else with a similar set up, and I know most of the Hotboat community or their boats (at least by reputation) in the area. I know the motor in Tim's boat was built by AZ Speed and Marine. Of course he'll tell you how bad they screwed it up and how he had to fix it, but it's still alive.............That's better than the motor he built.

That would make sense as to why they were almost impossible to get off.

What were the specs on that cam you installed? I just want to know for comparison on some engines I am building right now.

If it was off the shelf, maybe the part number.

Porting a set of AFR heads and coil bind sounds like a good builder!!??

I personally think Comp Cams would probably come up with any reason to make it not their fault. (disclaimer; I don't like them or their products).

I had 2 sets of their roller tappets fail on one dyno session. Looked like sub standard material and design to me. Sent them back they said it was detonation. My fault according to them.

8.9 to 1 compression, 36 degrees total advance, 93 octane fuel. There was no freaking detonation. But that is just me.

BTW Crane rollers doing just fine in same application. F comp cams.

The roller tips on the rocker arms flattened out as well......... I tend to believe they are right, valve trains don't just come apart after two hours..........


here's the spacers and stock afr springs this idiot used...........

This was a brand new set of AFR heads.........

yeah, my beef with comp cams doesn't negate the fact that you got screwed.

The minute the builder told you he was going to re-work the brand new AFR heads you should have ran down to his shade tree backyard and picked everything up. Sorry to hear of this mess you are in.