Oil line size.........Help
 

I had a motor built and last about five hours before coming apart. My builder says it's because my oil lines were inadequate. I'm running 10an everywhere, from the billet oil adapter from CP, to the billet remote oil filter from CP to the biggest oil cooler Cp sells. This dirt bag is trying to get out of responsibility for the pile of junk he took 6 months to build that didn't even make one trip to the lake. The motor is a 548 with a 10/71 making supposedly between 8 and 9 hundred horse power. (this guy has no dyno so I'll never know what it really makes for power).........It's funny how many people I've met now that have been ripped off by this clown. Where were they when this douchebag was telling me what a great engine builder he was???????????:mad:

Was the oil cooler flushed from whatever happened last time? Smitty

Brand new everything. Every piece of hardware and the lines were brand spankin new. The pan was full of metal shavings. This guy said the noise was in the valve train, so he supposedly adjusted the valves and told me it was ok to run it again. When I fired it up on the hose after leaving, you could tell the noise hadn't gone away. So we popped the valve covers to find that the valves varied in adjustment from 20 to 40 thousands. He had lied about the adjustment to get me to go out and finish the motor off. He also wrote all over the invoice that having inadequate lines for cooling, fuel and oiling will cause the motor the fail. Obviously trying to find excuses for the junk he built. He knew he didn't adjust the valves, and any builder should have known a rod knock. He wanted to give some excuses and have it leave his shop (back yard, he doesn't have a real shop) so he could blame some one else. This guy is a total crook.
The water lines are standard 1 1/4 with an off shore pickup, KPM sea strainer (brand new), into the sea pump, through the cooler, into the cross-over.
Oil lines are 10an from the adapter, to the remote filter, into the cooler and back to the block. I even ran the oil the opposite direction as the water for better cooling.
Fuel is 8 an from both tanks to the filter, 8 an to the pump (mounted below the tanks), 8 an to the bypass regulator, 8 an return lines, 6 an to each carb.
His latest is that it must be the improper size oil lines that caused the motor to fail. I just want to know if 10 an is adequate. I called CP and a rigger that worked at Eliminator and they both said 10 should be fine for that hp.

#10 AN oil lines will get the job done. 12 AN is better if the rest of the oiling system is correct. There are alot of factors and attention that need to be addressed when it comes to a very good oil system. Type of oil pan, oil capacity, type of fittings, elbows, type of pump (high volume) we do alot of tricks in these areas. If you need some direction please feel free to call me at the shop (216) 398-8500. Thanks.

Dean Gellner
Gellner Engineering Marine Power

Sounds like you should have driven an hour and a half south...

He could have installed the chamfered bearings backwards!

Dean has spoken! there is no need for me to respond!:D

John

Everybody makes mistakes, the difference is that people with integrity stand behind their work. P-Whipple, your right, Peto would have been day and night better............

bk,

Have you taken it out and apart yet to see what actually failed ? Not very fair to start bashing somebody without making sure of the cause of failure first :(

Just my opinion,

Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md

-10 will work. but -12 is better

I haven't bashed anybody yet, all names have been removed to protect the innocent............but on that note, the builder did say the knock was just valve train noise and that after an adjustment that he never performed that it was perfectly good to go. No matter what you want to blame the failure on you can't exactly trust his intentions after pulling a stunt like that. What he did was completely dis-honest and un-trustworthy. He lied once that makes everything he did a lie in my book. Nothing worse than a lier or a thief.......:mad:
Bearings at the front of the motor are trashed. Hard to say what caused the failure. I was planning on sending them to a lab to see what exactly caused the failure. With as much junk that's in the bottom of the pan there's no telling what let go first and what went through the entire motor. Here's a pic of the pan.

Ok so will 10 work or will it fail because of 10? The builder specifically told me 10 would work when I was putting it together. Everything is new, I could have put 12 in there at that point for minimal difference in cost. He even came to look at everything before we fired it up the first time. After the failure he as amnesia........:rolleyes:

I have been running 10an on my present motor for several years... like they said.. 12 is better, but 10 works.. Looks like you got ripped.. I would run and take what you have and start fresh.. just no good way out of it.. Sorry hear about your loss..

the only issues i ever heard of wit hthe smaller lines was bursting after running for a period of time, due to temp and the higher presure at higher rpm.

mnore important are the fittings that the -10 are attached to. for example if you have the -10 hose, going to a -10 x 1/4 or 3/8 npt then you will be defeating the purpose of have an adequate sized line because of the diminished i.d of the fitting itself, therefore creating a restriction. plus using a machined fitting verses a radiused hose end doesnt help.

bk,

I doubt that a lab will be able to tell you what caused the failure. They may be able to tell you that it was lack of lubrication, but not why. If you really want to find out what caused it, and you are not an experienced engine builder, you really need to have an experienced builder on hand as you disassemble the engine. If nothing else, make sure to keep all of the parts in the proper order so someone can look at them. And absolutely do not clean anything. You can usually figure out what caused an engine to fail IF you carefully inspect and measure everything as it is disassembled. There are many things that can cause bearing failure other than oiling system problems. Detonation, excess fuel in the oil, having the blower belt too tight, etc. A good engine builder should be able to look at everything and figure out what happened, but the further you take it apart yourself, the harder the job becomes. Too bad you are so far away, I would love to see the carnage and try to figure out what happened.

By the way, I want to make sure you understand that I am not defending your original builder. Its just that I have seen too many failures blamed on engine builders over the years that were actually caused by installation, tuneup or abuse. I have been extremely lucky to really not have anything major happen with any engines I have built. I am also very picky as to who I will build them for and how they are started and run.

Bill K

What kind of block are you using, if its a factory block does it have the oil bypass valves plugged off or the stiffer ones installed? There have been numerous osoe'rs who have had similar experiences due to block bypass valves allowing oil to bypass the cooler and filter due to oversight on this small detail. I personally would NOT run -10 hose on a bbc running a high volume pump and the kind of load you are running due to the restrictions in the elbows and -10 fittimg being as small as .425 thous. If you have a motor with large clearences,high volume pump and quite a few fittings and adapters running between point a and b you will lose some pressure that you might not want to lose. Would it destroy your motor in 5 hours,probably not,at least not without some warning. How was your oil pressure hot when you first ran it? Did it start dropping as you rpm'd it higher? Smitty

When you do put it back together you will need a new oil cooler again. I would use -10 lines. Also make sure they were plumbed right as far as the out of engine to the filter to the cooler and back into the engine.

Was the engine primed before before inital start,do you know if the cam was lubed,what oil was installed,how long and what RPM was the inital start,how did you run the motor on the inital trip.....The valve lash could have been re-adjusted and drifted subject to answers to the questions.

If your going to run -10 hoses again make sure you use full flow fittings and avoid any extra bends,measure every fitting and adapter to make sure your not installing any restrictions. I have went as far as boring out/polishing adapter fittings before that were beefy and necked down unnecessarily. Keep your hoses as short as possible too,there are frictional loses thru them too. -10 is only 1/2id,adapters are often as small as 7/16 id,be careful and measure everything,Smitty

Something Monstaa mentioned that I can't stress enough too,use full flow radiused hose ends instead of adapter fittings anywhere possible,the adapters,especially 90 degree ones have sharp bends and reduced diameter in them,thats one of the main reasons I use -12 hose and fittings,even though they are also reduced when making turns the smallest ones are about .550 id,Smitty

bk,

Any progress in finding out what caused the failure ?

Bill K

Motor is getting torn down as we speak. After paying for "port work" on brand new AFR heads, it turns out the exhaust side was never ported but the intake said looks like it was hit with a meat grinder. The valves are not mated properly to the heads, the intake gasket was over hanging the intake ports. The intake that was "ported" didn't line up to the heads. (pics soon to follow). The springs had old gm style spacers in it, the builder says I had 100 psi too much spring pressure, three lobes on the cam are gone in less than 10 hours. The lobes are so bad they have grooves worn in them. The roller tips on the rockers (brand new btw) are worn off. (pics to follow) The stud girdles were on backwards, the builder said he had never seen them on like that before and had to use a pry bar to get them off. The lifters were gen iv type on a gen v block. That means the had the bar between them when they didn't need it. The timing chain was an old no name single roller type. (nice for a 10k 800 hp motor rebuild.....) The thrust bearing was beat to death, builder isn't sure if the that was first to go or if the rounded cam was first. Either way after a valve adjustment this motor was supposedly good to go.:rolleyes: We will have our day in court. I'm having two different builders document the carnage in this motor and then I'll have my attorney serve the papers.

A lesson to all, never drop you motor off in a dirty backyard.
Ask your builder for refrences, real world people with motors similar or better than yours.
Never believe just because someone tells you how good they are, that it's true.
Just because the guy read a few books and can dazzle you with knowledge doesn't mean he can actually do machine work.
Just because the guy freelances for a magazine doesn't mean he knows anything except how to bs his way through a story.



The new parts in this motor look to be about 2500 dollars worth of trash plus 7500 dollars worth of labor. Every part including the block is junk now. The pistons are covered in black soot, new builder says he thinks the cylinders were washed down, front two pistons are melted either from lack of oil or from being washed down. This guy supposedly set up and boost refferenced the carbs. Nice job huh?

I'll have pics and more info Tuesday.

Nothing wrong with your lines. The "THUNK" you wre hearing might not have been a rod. When cam lobes wear down, (I think I am reading you right) they sound like a rod knocking. The cam lobe is slaming on the lifter and generating the noise. If the lash was off, it might have been from the cam. Once this happens, sometimes the pushrods jump out of the rocker arm and get cramed under the lifter. This causes the valve to stay open and the piston head intruduces itself.

I didn't read your whole thread, but this all could have starte with a cam that was not broken in correctly. Poorly orted heads will not blow a motor, and even a poorly installed #10 line is big enough for a oil remote on an engine that runs at less than 6000 rpm's.

Just something I learned about cams last week. I cooked a brand new one too. Made it for 15 minutes on the lake. Had a carb problem that would not let us get cam broke in. I run flat tappet solid lifter type though.

Good luck to you.

Sounds like amateur hour to me. Should have been no reason to even touch a new AFR head. If he bougt the right size, they are perfect. Guys like me save up money to buy heads like that. You port and polish to try to get to heads like that.

Black soot is from running fat. Are pistons melted on top or bottom? When cams flatten it screws up the valve sequence. with a blower it is not using the intake stroke to meter the fuel. If the intake valve was stuck open, the blower kept pushing fuel into the chamber and fattened it up. This could have been the reason your pistons cooked.

I am looking forward to see how this thread turns out because I am always wanting to learn more about these type engines.

Unfortunately, we can only learn from the mistakes. :(

If you more experienced guys find anything wrong with my logic on the last 2 posts, please tell me where it is. I am just thinking out loud here.

Thanks.

Were your afr heads as cast or cnc to start with? If they were cnc be GLAD the so called builder never attacked the exhaust port as the performance will pretty much only go down hill if ground on (everything is sized and perfectly balanced out of the box),Smitty

Oh no, the front two bearings are junk, the crank is blue, three rods are cracked along with the front two pistons melting. We can't find markings on the no name rods yet to figure out what they are. The crank is a middle of the road Scat crank. The new builder said it's not the worst they make but not a 10k rebuild or an 800 to 900 hp crank. That's no surprise though.......

I was thinking about this also. Did your guy check that the oil was flowing through the filter in the proper direction. A lot of inexperienced marine guys will put the cooler lines on backwards and the filter will basically come apart inside the casing.

This kind of oversight will cook an engine in the way you described.

Good luck with your quest.

Heads were complete, brand new, cnc bowl blended 345's. They came with stainless intake and inconel exhaust. First thing the con artist did was remove the valves. He said he couldn't figure out what part numbers they were and he called AFR and they supposedly told him they had never heard of the part numbers before. He also said the valve guide clearances were all wrong and that AFR doesn't put heads together so whoever sold me the heads ripped me off and put cheap valves in them. :rolleyes: But, being that Don at Triad Performance and I are good friends, I got the heads at Don's cost straight from AFR. I knew I was being lied to at that point but I had to wait until I had the valves in my hand to find out for myself. In the end I got the valves back and called AFR with the Ferria part numbers, guess what? They were exactly what the invoice from AFR called for, stainless intake and inconel exhaust valves. :rolleyes:

http://www.tpmarine.com/index.asp?Pa...OD&ProdID=1395

I rigged it myself, checked, double, and triple checked to make sure the hoses were all in the right places. The oil adapter and remote oil filter were brand new billet pieces form cp, they are also plainly marked in and out.


Smitty mentioned swept fitting, there's nothing but swept fittings.

Was the valve job touched,afr uses a very good valve job that enhances the flow of their heads with wide seay margins,as soon as these are cut on it REDUCES the flow signifigantly,I'm going thru this myself. When I bought my AFR's I had a local machine shop assemble them,they told me the valve job "was all screwed up" and cut on the valve job :mad: (I didn't know any better, (this was 2 years ago),now I'm trying to have them straightened out but its not looking too great,the flow is DOWN 30-40 cfm,good luck. Hopefully the rest of this mess can also be fixed so yo can salvage your boating season. I luckily have been building motors for last 24 years so I do my own engine assembly work (except headwork) so I have avoided major engine disasters (I have a hard time trusting ANYONE),Smitty

bad,
Take a look at the heads of the rod bolts, they might have the rod manufacturers name on them. ARP makes them for a lot of the rod companies and puts "Scat", "Eagle" etc on them.

As far as the lifters go, it really does not matter which ones you use. Depending on the lift of the cam, you cannot use the stock type retainers on some engines. I do have a question though. Do you know what brand they are ? I had a problem with a set of retrofit hydraulic rollers a year or so ago on a pair of 502's I was building for a customer. The lifters did not seem to run straight on the cam, almost like the link bar was bent wrong :( We replaced them with a set of stock type, with the "dog bone" retainer and they were fine. Sent the lifters back to the manufacturer, but never heard anything from them. Have your builder take a look at them.

As far as the timing chain goes, I have used the single roller design on almost all of the new Big Blocks I have been building but .... I do use the good Cloyes one. Have yet to see one fail.

Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md

Are you saying the extra valve spring pressure killed the cam? I would look at oil or break in.

How would you manage valve float and not kill a cam? Looking to learn here, I just increased my spring pressure to control float at 6500 and now I am nervous. Solid roller cam though.

Experts?

Bill why would anyone want to use the gen iv type with the link bar in a gen v motor? I was told it wasn't neccesary but that it wouldn't have a negative impact either.

I'll find out what type of lifters they are Tuesday. Everything will have been documented, dissambled and examined for damage. The cam was a solid roller Comp Cam with supposedly over 700 lift. Funny thing is the builder said the name was ground off the front of the cam, it took him a while to figure out what it is, he thinks it may be used. He also said at first glance it's not set-up for marine use. He is going to get some specs to see if we want to use it again.


Cloyes is what I've always used too. A stock Merc. or Gm type is dissapointing to find, because I will not put it back in.

We've already determined the seat pressure was wrong and the "new" valves didn't mate to the heads properly. With that being said it is a comp cam and the builder thinks they will repalce the cam for him no charge(a couple hundred bucks for free is better than nothing if we decide to use it again). I think we are leaning towards the cam and seat pressure, ruining the motor in general. Three lobes in the front of the cam were gone, the front cylinders were washed down (all the holes are full of black soot), the pistons melted, bearings failed and thus the motor is done. Heads and intake may be the only good parts left, although I wish the heads weren't ground on, and they will need a valve job. Good thing I still have the brand new valves the heads came with.

Sure, super spring pressure can easily ruin a cam. This motor was never designed to run at 6500 rpm, I was talked into solid roller to make more hp. As far as I'm concerned the benefit of solid roller vs. hydraulic in a non race marine application is not worth the trouble. I should have never let him change the spring pressure that was set up for hydraulic roller from AFR and we should have stayed with hydraulic roller and used the same roller lifters that were in the motor.
The guy was such a blow hard about how he's tested so many type of cams and such and that his tests showed that hydraulic lifters blead down in marine applications due to air in the oil from bouncing around a lake and how he was instrumental in showing all the cam builders how to make proper cams.

He also said he was the first to properly port heads and that AFR copied his design and port work in their cnc ported heads.:rolleyes: What a jack-off.........


I should have known when a guy has to tell you how smart and how good he is compared to every other builder on the planet than he's probably full of crap. He bad mouthed every builder in town and all the big names on the west coast. I guess I should have asked what racing teams used his stuff since he was the worlds greatest motor builder.

I killed tappets with valve float. I also like solid rollers. You know exactly where the adjustments are by using a feeler gauge. But thats just me.

Other opinions?

That looks sharp.

I don't prefer hydralic flats or rollers, I like the solids. Usually I have learned from my own break downs and those of others, You usually kill the tappets with to much spring pressure or improper break in. Since you are using rollers, probably to much pressure.

The cam maunufacturers can always tell you what the maximum seat pressure is your your cam model.

Motor will blow up immediately if plummed backwards, especially with old oil cooler sending junk directly to the mains. Motor builder should have checked oil pressure cold with an oil pump priming tool and mechanical gauge, before trying to run. If motor was blueprinted, this would be in specs or on tag on motor.

How about tappets jumping off the lobe onto a hard landing due to inadequate spring pressure? The tappets I speak of were not totally destroyed, they splayed in the skirts that held the roller and were very difficult to remove. Some of the roller bearings were going south too.

What is the proper break-in for solid rollers?

I can visualize it both ways.

Bad,

To be honest with you, I thought you were dealing with a Hydraulic Roller. I dont know if any one even makes solid roller lifters without the link bar ?? I have never even looked. On a solid roller, an extra 100lbs of seat pressure probably did not cause the damage unless the open pressure was way off the scale, or the springs were coil binding. Most of the drag race guys have been increasing spring pressures to help reduce lifter failures, among other reasons.