More Pro Charger tuning Progress and AFR RAtios
 

Well as some of you remeber I installed an M-3 SC on my 500 EFI over the winter. I am making some head way with the tuning of it. I have had the ECU done my Mark Boos @ PMI EFI and for the most part have it dialed in pretty well, however I was not comfortable with the reading plugs thing and Sprung for a wide band O2 sensor (LM-1) from Inovative Motorsports and am happy I did ....the motor the way it is set up is on the rich side from IDLE to 4600.....( 11.5-11.9 ) AFR and once the motor reaches 4800-5300 the mixture gets up to the lean side( 14.0-14.5) the leanist it got was 14.5 but I am uncomfortable with that # .....tooooo lean
Mark says...................... so my next question was to call ATI and spoke with some moron that said they do not offer a greater Boost to fuel ratio disc and that I need to get a whole new FMU......I called BUllchit and then spoke with a guy who knew a little more about it and said yes I can get a 7 PSI disc to give me greater fuel preassure up top but not effect the mid range and cruise preassures......I guess every set up is different and will require differing # 's but I am confused now for sure....


all Readings are at the fuel rail with liquid filled quality guage....forget the gaffrig piece o chit on the dash it reads anywhere from 6-10 psi higer...

Base fuel 42 PSI
WOT fuel PSI 62 PSI
I guess my next step is to install a 7 PSI disc ( borrowed ) and try it ....Hope fully I will be able to back out of the base fuel preassure enought to get the bottom and mid range right and have enough when in the boost Mark says 65 PSI should be right.

any advise here....Smitty?

On a side note.......Best GPS speed with the install.....84.6@ 5300 spinning a 30 inch box stock Bravo.

Bryan

I will be picking your brain in the near future.

I doubt you will ever get the fuel regulator they supply even with a better disc to do what you want (I never could). A better way is to use there regulator or a high quality aeromotive to hold base pressure.send the extra fuel your bleeding off thru it to a second regulator like a caretech rising rate adjustable regulator,works pretty good IF you actually have enough fuel supply from your pump,set it to take ove when under boost. I found this set-up years ago,Tyler Crockett started using it after he saw mine,Smitty

Sounds good but I am un-clear how to do this......can you expound better when you have time.

Thanks Bryan

I played with the Procharger fuel setup for a while and it never was very consistent. I finally just sent my ecu off with a list of all my motor specs to ASM to be reflashed. Now I don't use the boost reference portion of the regulator. The fuel press stays the same thru to hole rpm range and AFR stays where it should be.

I think he had a thread explaining this. Could you point in the right direction Smitty?

Hey Bryan, Just a thought: Are you sure that your fuel delivery isn't the problem? I'm thinking that @WOT and 62 psi, it could be that the fuel flow is "tapped out" and the fuel system just can't deliver enough volume to increase the pressure past that point to 65psi and beyond. If this is the problem, a possible fix is to install a MSD fuel pump booster which increases the voltage supply to the fuel pump incrementally (at an adjustable rate) with boost. Jegs sells them for $305. I'm seriously thinking of installing one on my M-3 blown 540.

Don't waste your time,the msd voltage booster is only rated at 7.5 amps output when you boost the fuel pump voltage to 15.7. Its a great idea though,I'm using the kenne bell "boosta-pump" voltage booster,its rated at 35 amps output though which is a safer amount for these big pumps we are running,Smitty

And as far as being tapped out on pressure, I spoke with Bryan today and even though he doesn't feel he is,I think your thinking the same thing I am, its one of the first things I think should be checked before re-rigging the regulator. Install a temporary extra long return hose in place of the one he's currently running,take boat to wot,pinch of return hose from regulator 100%,if fuel pressure doesn't rise at all your getting all your going to get because your motor is using everything your fuel pump can put out,then its time to re-examine the fuel system. In his case he's only running 5psi of boost,the aeromotive pump should be able to give him all he's looking for unless there is something holding him back in the fittings lines,filters,wiring,etc,Smitty

I know Mark has allready asked you this but what size injectors are you running? I had Dustin program my ECU last weekend and we achieved a smooth A/F of 12 with an aeromotive 1000 and the procharger regulator. I don't know what size disk I have but I am set @ 32#s at idle and get 58#s @ WOT 5200RPM. My injectors are 42#s My HP is lower than yours so you should have 50-60# injectors. You may want to get the pressure up but you also might want to consider a higher volume injector @ the lower pressure. Mark did a great job programing my ECU but he too says there is no substitute for having the programmer on board.

Im running the same regulator setup that articfriends runs Tyler Crocket set up and tuned mine. It works great 38 to 42lbs. at idle and running in vacuum and 65 under boost. He showed me on the dyno that the regulator that comes with the procharger kit was junk when he put his setup on it worked like a dream. Im making almost 800 hp and the aeromotive 1000 pump supplies it just fine. The procharger regulator would go way lean under boost...Dean

I'm taking delivery of a 502mpi w/ a Procharger next week. The motor is having the same problems you guys are describing and I'm thinking it's the fuel pump, or the FMU. 50psi at idle and drops to around 37psi at rpm, banging and popping.

Where can I find more info on Tyler's setup?

Thanks Smitty
 

Well after a lenghty conversation with Smitty today I have come to the conclusion that he knows his stuff .....thats for sure. Smitty thanks for all of your help today...First I am going to do the 7 lb disc we spoke of and also test the PSI on the pump with the hose trick....IF i get no where I have found the regulater you have shown and I will go that route.....I will keep you posted on the progress and again thanks for all the great help.
Here is the link for the regulator for those looking for it.http://www.cartech.net/fmu2020.htm

on a side note....Know where I can find an XR upper for a decent price?
Bryan

Stock 500 efi injectors.....42#

Bryan

Bryan, I'm curious about your LM-1. Where did you install the O2 senser in the manifold? Also, did you get the handheld unit and log it to a laptop, or the gauge to install on the dash.
I am rebuilding my 502/whipple and it would be nice to know how my AFR is through out the rpm range. Maybe I have a problem and don't know.

Boost dependent regulators are garbage. You need to reprogram the ecu to read boost. Then it will increase pulse width of the injectors for fuel not force it in with pressure, this will also retard the timing with boost. Boost dependent regulator is what they use on $1200 turbo kits for hondas. Arizona speed and marine has the program for this. If you didnt know they designed the factory program for that engine.

Thanks for the tip Smitty. I won't bother to waste money on the fuel pump booster. I'm currently running the Aeromotive 1000 pump w/ a -10 fuel line with no problems, so I agree it should supply enough fuel for Bryan. I think I'm going to upgrade to the Aeromotive Eliminator pump which flows 800lbs perhr. instead of the 600 the 1000 flows, just to be safe.
I also agree that the best thing to do is have the ECU programmed to compensate for boost. This will probably require bigger injectors though. The 42lb/hr. injectors will flow a lot more than they are rated (they are usually rated at like 45psi) when you are putting 65psi fuel pressure to them. That's the real reason blower manufacturers use the boost referenced regulator to compenstae for the extra fuel demand - it just a whole lot cheaper than requiring an ECU reprogram and new injectors. If you can find a way to make it work without the unecessary expense - like Smitty has done - kudos to you. my 2 cents...

BTW: Bryan, the best price I have seen on a new XR upper is Offshore Performance Specialties in Fort Myers Fla. Tele: 239 489 0884 They're listing new XR uppers at $3,895 in Powerboat magazine. This guy is super honest and a pleasure to deal with, from my experience, I bought a new 2" shortie Imco Extreme Lower for $3100 when Imco was selling it for $4100! He also has the best prices on just about every Mercury part you can think of. He also sold me a brand new Bravo -1 prop for $425 when Teague/CP etc. were selling them for like between $460-495. Give them a call.

ECU has been reprogrammed and the injectors are set to run@ max duty cylcle already....I feel my leaning out up top is not an issue of injectors but rather not enough fuel preassure for the givin RPM's Was goung to go the route of bigger injectors and 2 bar map sensor but was told by some of the best in the biz for 5lbs of boost it was not neccesary to do this. I agree that on an engine running big boost and all that this would not be an option but would be mandatory.

John on a side note I found when cleaning the fuel cooler that is was clogged with bits of impellar from the other motor that must have overheated because nothing would pass through what I cleaned out of it. Good thing I checked and double checked everything before installing it on my motor. So hows the boat coming along....Looks like you got a new ride? I think I saw you now have a 28 ft Nordic heat? nice looking boat

Bryan

I installed in the tailpipe right behind the collar at the 11 o'clock position...surviving there for now but have only run it twice....I di have a spare in case it craps out during testing. As for the LM-I I got it at summit....kind of pricey buit cheaper than melting a motor down $ 349.00............
I got the plainest one they have and it is hand held ...only wanted it for testing and then it will go on the tool shelf for future projects or to friends who need some help with getting things right. Works well so far and will be using on my boat this weekend as well as another friends procharged motor for some fine tuning. Invaluable tool to say the least. Take my situation for example....My motor is on the rich side until about 4800 then it drops out, you know as well as I do pulling out of the throttle @ 80 + to do a plug reading is just insane...Crash waiting to happen not to mention drive breakage .....so I would have thought well I will do a plug reading @ 45-5000 and be done.....boy would I have been wrong ...everything would have looked fine on the plugs but in reality would have been to close for comfort on the top.....and I never would have known until it was to late. Thank goodness I do.


Food for thought. cheap insurance..................or not

Bryan

You're talking to the right guy in Smitty.

Just a word about increasing fuel pressure. Flow will only increase in proportion to the square root of the pressure increase. Increasing fuel pressure from 45 psi to 65 psi only increases flow by 20%. That's not enough to keep up with most supercharging situations so you have to reprogram the ECU to increase pulse width anyway. I always recommend to buy bigger injectors and be done with it, especially if there are any plans for future upgrades.

These set-ups we are dealing with aren't quite perfect,the way your saying to do it would be ideal but in most cases would require a completely new ecu/computer and harness. Look at my set-up for example,I'm running a 2 bar map sensor and a mefi3 controller which is custom programmed to open injectors up close to their limit when I'm in the upper rpm ranges. The mefi 3 will only fire high impedance injectors,the biggest injectors that are high impedance are 63 lb per hr (which I have already switched to). At a steady state fuel pressure of lets say 45 or 50 psi with no boost referencing where the ecu takes care of the extra fuel demands by opening up the pulse width based on manifold pressure sensed by the map sensor I would need 96 lb per hour injectors to support the hp level I'm at. My ecu won't drive them. So instead of spending 2000$ dollars on a new computer,plus the bigger yet injectors plus harness,software and then programming and most likely a laptop too (which I don't own) I boost reference the fuel pressure when I go into boost and even go a step further and boost the fuel pump voltage at 5psi of manifold boost.Yes it is somewhat crude but it works pretty well once set-up properly. Now on the other hand just boosting the fuel pressure without re-programming the ecu and adding a 2 bar map sensor is really a crude way to add extra fuel and is inviting trouble but in some of these near stock applications running 5 psi of boost it can work although I have never believed it to be real safe. I'm not sure if you were aware of all of this so I posted it so maybe you could gain a better understanding of what we are trying to do,Smitty

I'm running the aeromotive eliminator pump myself,I was running a essex pump which was better than the original a1000 I started with. The aeromotive eliminator still couldn't keep up with what I'm doing thats why I added the kenne bell voltage booster. I could have went to a weldon pump or the aeromotive pro series but when I bought my eliminator pump aeromotive didn't have the voltage controller for the pro series yet which lowers the pump output when your not getting on it and talking to them they reccomended against using it in a continuos duty application plus I knew that the pro pump or the weldon pump would put out more than my regulators could bleed off when not in boost and I didn't want to replace and re-plumb everything AGAIN (I had just went from rubber hose to braided hose and bought new regulators).
On a side note-I use the stock fuel pump wires from the merc mpi harness to trigger a 50 amp bosch relay thats wired with 10 gauge wire directly to alternator/battery cables,don't make the mistake of trying to run ANY of these bigger pumps off the merc power because you will have a voltage drop and pressure loss,especially at WOT (this isn't necesarily directed towards ao-2600,this is just something I want to remind ANYONE following this thread who may also be doing something similar),Smitty

I love showing off the twin rail injector set-up I cobbled together so I couldn't resist posting yet again another pic of it-Smitty

Smitty,
I am impressed with what you have accomplished with you EFI system. I have toyed with an offer of working with Keith Eickert on an EFI system on my set up, but know it won't be push button. Your system and hours of re-rigging and experimenting remind me why I am staying with a carburetor!

Thanks Smitty. I have actually completely re-wired my boat and I have a 30 amp relay with a dedicated 10 gauge supply to my pump. I have the relay triggered by the key switch so the pump comes on when the key is turned on. Trust me, I'm an old nitrous racer so I'm pretty anal about the fuel system!
You have highlighted though, the fact that with a blown EFI setup and, consequently, much higher fuel pressure than a blow-thru carb setup (say 45-65psi @WOT vs. 12-20psi @WOT), you are going to need a much bigger pump. This is so because pumps are rated at a certain flow at a certain psi- for eg. the A1000 is rated at 600lbs per hr. @45psi but the flow is without a doubt much higher than 600lb/hr at 20 psi. To illustrate my point, Aeromotive says this pump is good for 1100hp on a forced air carb motor but only 800hp on a forced air EFI motor. (This obviously is because of the difference in fuel delivery pressure, cause we all know that an EFI setup is more efficient with fuel!)
I haven't seen any issues with my A1000 as yet but admittedly I haven't even been able to hold the throttle down for too long because it runs right to the limiter at 6600 RPM so quick I have to back it off. I'm trying to get the right prop on the boat and I hope theEliminator will be big enough for me, since Aeromotive claims this is big eneough for 1500HP forced air carb motors (and 1100HP EFI blown motors).
All in all, I am very impressed with your setup but I couldn't agree more with what Benperfected is saying - after all the help and guidance that I've gotten over the years from you guys (Smitty and Tomcat in particular) I've finally got a carb setup that seems to produce a linear AFR throughout the RPM range, so I think I'll stick to it now rather than pull more hair out with an EFI setup!!

I assumed you had EFI,its great that you got a carb to work as good as you have as it is also quite a challenge with a blow thru system to get it right. Keep us posted on how it works out,Smitty

Good Thread I just started using my LM 1 and so far so good. I cant wait to try a run , then Ill be like you guys ...Questions start flying!

Thanks Smitty. Weather looks good today so I might give it a run later and let you all know how it goes. When I get all the data I need I'm going to start a new thread on blow thru carb mods.
BTW:On the point I was making on fuel pressure vs. volume:
According to the info on Jegs website, the Eliminator Pump flows 800lbs/hr @ 45 psi and over 1,000lbs/hr @ 8 psi, so its easy to see how these pumps are more than sufficient for just about any carb motor.
HP: Good to hear you got the LM-1. These things are a godsend. I just bought the Innovate XD-16 Gauge, but I've just now discovered that I still need at least the LC-1 cable to connect it to the 18' extension cable I've got. I'll probably just buy the LM-1 RPM kit as well so that I can do just about anything I need. The good thing about the XD-16 is that it is an LED gauge which gives you better "real-time" visiblity of your AFR, cause we found it was hard to read of the LM-1 in the boat because the glare made it hard to read off the LCD display. Just another option to consider! Let us know how it goes.

Took delivery of my newzed boat today.........couple of questions.

502MPI, M-1 Procharger with FMU, SX pump (not sure which model)

1. On the FMU - how should this thing be plumbed? On my motor, the top port went to the stock fuel pressure regulator and the bottom port was simply stuck into the inlet side of the procharger. This can't be right. Can someone tell me how they have theirs plumbed?

2. The motor is leaning out. Pump is currently wired to the factory harness and I plan on putting it on a dedicated ckt tomrrow. 30psi and as soon as you bring it off idle, fuel pressure drops to 27psi. Never goes up. Also noticed the battery voltage was 10.5 and doesn't appear the alternator is charging. I'm sure the pump isn't getting enough voltage. This could contribute to the low fuel pressure, couldn't it?

FMU should have one inlet port from the pump, one outlet port to the fuel rail via filter, and a bypas line to return to the tank, on the vacuum side of things it will have a manifold vacuum lime IE from the FMU to the manifold , and a vacuum line directly back to the airhorn ( this is incase of FMU failure dumping raw fuel to the motor and not in the bildge . With out a boost / Vacuum line to the manifold or a source of reading the amount of boost your prohcharger is putting out the FMU has no signal to increase fuel preassure, no line , no worky.

As far as fuel pump goes Smitty will chime n here I am sure.

Bryan

Hello OSO memebers
I'm new to OSO, I've been on the site before and decided to join. I have a 98 Ultimate Warlock 28SXT. I bought it a couple of years ago, 502, procharger, lots of headaches. The motor blew last year. It's now 509" SRP pistons Brodix heads CMI headers new fuel system. I to am having issues with fuel pressure on the big end. Aeromotive 11108 pump -10AN feed -8return, adjustable regulator on the stock merc fuel rail.After reading this thread I feel I'm more confused to my next step. I looked at the cartech FMU and it states that it installs after the stock regulator, and the is a replay that states it goes on the feed side of the rail. Base pressure is about 35psi and stays there. Any input would be very appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Jason

I was going to buy a cartech FMU anf figure out the fuel line issues later, but I am having trouble contacting them. Do I have to go through a distributor? If so who?

Thanks

Jason

Call them direct...In San Antonio 210-333-1749

I ordered one today..........They should be there...on a side note Superchargers online has what looks to be the same unit for less money....http://www.superchargersonline.com/p...umber=BEG-2027

I ordered from Car tech....they told me it was the older version....not sure if it is true but at least I know I am getting some support if I need since I bought it directly from them....

Bryan

Thank you
I tried calling that number listed as the fax number as well as the phone number, both with no luck. The phone just rings & rings. I'll try again Tuesday. I just want to get my boat running correctly. Thanks for the reply

Jason

Bringing this thread back from the dead.....


You can also buy the FMU direct from Bell Engineering. They are the ones that actually make it. $199

http://bellengineering.net/Pages/products_FPR.html

Thanks for the reply Griswald.
I have since bought and installed the Cartech FMU. It is installed on the return side of the fuel rail then to the gas tanks. It appears to be working correctly. After fisrt install I made a pass the motor sounded like it was super fat. I tune the FMU per the instructions. It runs ok now but......
The motor will only turn 42-4300 RPM's I have all -10 line feeding the stock fuel rail/injectors and -8 return. If I knew how to post pics I could show what I have done. I tried going to a 28" bravo 1 from my 30" just lost about 5MPH same RPM. Could/is the factory fuel rail be to restricktive? Also I am only running about 150 deg motor temp. Is this too low a temp to get out of cold start mode, or is the motor just starving for air. The weather is starting to break here in MIL WI. and wanted to get this straigtened out. any furht help would be very helpfull.

Jason
p.s. Still the same guy as the old posts just went through some changes and had to re-register

every body seems to have a bunch of good ideas" but did you remove your anti siphon valves from your tank. if not you will never flow enough fuel.

I have not been in the tanks, the only thing I have done to them is remove the plugs from the return bungs to plumb the return lines from my FMU. How would I go about doing this?
Thank you for the info.

Jason

Not to over simlify things, but as I have preached in the past, DYNO TUNE THESE ENGINES. Every engine reacts differently, and needs to be tuned perfectly to last. Its the oly way to go for piece of mind.

In my humble opinion, and humble experience.