Super charger on 454
 

Would it be possible to run blowers off of 525SC mercs on Mark IV 454s? I have edelbrock alum heads but am concerned they might not mount up. If they don't is there a way to make them?

BT

Yes, I believe the deck height is the only issue, if even that. There are tall and short deck manifolds available or you can get spacers.

If I'm not mistaken the 525SC's were 454's. Bolt on and go baby!



Darrell.

525SC blower packages have rectangular port intake manifolds. You may have to modify your heads where the intake ports meet or switch to an aftermaket manifold.

It will certainly work, but you may have to make some changes.

There are oval port intakes for the weiand blowers available new. And there is 1 available on ebay right now.

You can run a rectangular intake on an oval port head no problem, I have done it... Just use the rectangular gaskets.

If you're asking if the bolt pattern between the manifold and head are the same, yes. So is the deck height.
As was pointed out, the 525SCs manifolds use rectangular port heads. Are yours oval or rectangle? If oval.

The Combustion chamber size on an Eldebrock head is less than a 990 casting hi-po head. This means your compression ratio will be higher than stock and you will risk the chance of blowing a head gasket or lifting the head. Do you have the performer, or the performer rpm series , The rpm 's are offered in a square port which has the 119 cc chambers, any of the ovals are a 110 cc chamber.

Thanks for the replies, it sounds like I may be in a good spot. Heads are rpms, rect port with open chambers. When I built them I used cometic head gaskets and faria exhaust valves. Compression is about 9:5 now.

Any idea how much boost I could run and what sort of hp increase to expect. I run a cam with 112 lsa and about 564 lift, 230 duration or thereabouts.

BT :cool:

Is that 9.5 CR????? Thats way high for a blower motor.

I would say 3-4# boost max.

With an intercooler 6psi should be ok. Just watch the timing and REALLY read the plugs.



Darrell.

I didn't build the engines with blowers in mind. Just kicking around what I might do at this time to get a little more top end pop, without teardown again. Unfortunately, I am a forced induction novice. So, I have many rather basic questions, heres a couple more:

What would it take to add an innercooled setup to a merc blower off 525sc?

Without intercooling, which I presume is cooling the intake air charge, how much hp could one expect with 3-4psi? How much more with 6psi?

Thanks for the feedback guys.

BT

Adding the chiller is relatively simple. Just needs to be bolted between the intake and SC. Next, you have to feed it some water. You can do this in many ways. Easiest way without adding a new hull pick up is to use a 2 stage sea pump. Then you just have mount a dump tube for the water to exit.
I would GUESS about a 75hp gain with 3-4# and maybe up to 140hp with 6# through a chiller.

I would say only 3-4 lbs with your set up, the cam sounds ok. If you can run a chiller do so, the 177 blowers make alot off heat when you run the smaller pulley

No offence blue thunder, but:
9.5:1 CR, a supercharger, and "a forced induction novice" usually results in melted pistons.
Do a lot of research, check to see if your cooling (oil & water) are sufficient, fuel system, ignition is tuned for your setup, etc.

There was just a guy in the general section selling some Merc 420 set ups. With the 420's you can build the same boost at a much lower temp than the 177's. They had the carbs and all.


Darrell.

Believe me I considered this rdoactive, no offense at all taken. I do build my own engines and have blown plenty so if I do it again, oh well. That seems to be how I learn. I do run closed cooling which I am slightly concerned with. Typically no tstats though and water temps of about 125F, oil about 200f unless running hard, then 230f. I feel ok about my base engines.

Anyway, the 525sc blowers in the classifieds evidently sold whilst I was learning from you guys.... so, anyone know of where another set could be had? I really want to step up to this level of engine tuning/building. NA has become boring.

As always, thanks to all for your inputs.

BT :cool:

I have a 525sc in a single engined boat. If you "want to step up to the plate" get real blowers. The 177's just dont give you that much more power nfor the money- BUT mine is extremely reliable.(SO FAR)

Old Navy, with my already high 9.5:1 comp ratio would a better blower make any difference? Other than the intercooler part anyway. I think I am forced to keep boost low anyway, no?

Couple more questions guys if you are still out there. When installing the 525sc induction on a mark IV setup:

Will the distributor just drop in where it was?

Looks like I need to change something with the tstat housing?

How about the v-belts? Still run them to steering, circ pump and sea pump or do you have to do something else?

BT

You already know how to build engines, why not go the proven route that you already know......CUBIC INCHES!!! We turned 500EFI's into 540's this past winter and except for some issues we created ourselves they have been running great.

Wouldn't he have to boost reference the carbs as well. Different powervalve, run a vacuum line from powervalve chamber to intake and install high speed air bleeds? Isn't 9.5 too high?

525 SC is the 454CI and the 525SCI is the 502CI. I am also considering using the 525SC supercharger on my 454 as well. Keep us updated, I am also interested. I am running 9.6:1 compression and have been told that 3lbs of boost would be fine.

go with at least the 250 or 420 blowers a friend on here had a 509 closed cooling 250 blower ran good. now he has a 1071 with cooler 572:D oh the 250 set up is up for sale I think. art

t500hps - Money, the answer is money. If I could allow myself to drop 10k a side cubes is where I would be!

mh3591 - Carbs included in the deal are original 1050 dominators with the 525sc blowers. Supposed to be boost referenced. I'm not entirely sure what that means but it sounds cool :cool-smiley-011:

pkspx - It may be a while, but I'll try to let you know if I end up with a grenade. I guess if the boost is reasonable, the engines should last, but that is heresay.

AIR TIME - I'm green at this, but with my already too high of compression I think the 177 will have plenty of capacity. I'm sure the next round will have more serious huffers :cool-smiley-026:

BT

Unless you plan to lower the compression, I would go for the 177 blower (less HP to turn than a bigger blower). I built a HP420/525SC clone once with 8.75:1 and 5psi boost w/o chiller. Sweet package.

bl

Sorry for the ignorance, but is a 525sc charger a 177? What does 177 stand for? Is it cfm?

BT

Yes the 177 is the supercharger on the 525SC.
177 is the volume of air it moves in 1 revolution.

rdoactive, thanks that makes sense.

Ok, should be getting my new parts any day. I am curious about the last sentence above and if I am on the right track to prevent holed pistons.

> Oil temps are good now at 205 cruise, 230 after hard running.
> Closed cooling with aluminum heads. Normal water temp is generally about 125f, both engines with only restrictors for tstats.
> Fuel pumps are stock merc. I suspect this is a problem. I intend to replace these with 100 gph pumps or thereabouts. Recommendations needed. Lines are all 8 or 10ANs.
> Ignition is stock tbolt IV. I do have some MSD ignitions I used to run but prefer to stay without. Module is a 24 degree. I assume the tbolt is good as is and intend to leave it alone.
> Quench is .037" with the pistons down .010 hole.

BT :cool:

You should get a V6-14 module for your TB IV ignition. Set total timing around 30*. The 24* module will give too much advance and I doubt you will get it to idle decent with only 6* initial.

Stock Merc fuel pump should be ok, but you could get one of the high volume Carter mechanical pumps to be safe.

Agreed, and you might ant to try a cooler plug.

the dist, will just drop in as normal, you will need to space the thermo housing to the stbd side just a bit, and all the v-belts are the same, I ran a 177 on a 454 with out a cooler for years with no problems, I only ran the boat at lake powell, elevation is around 3600 -3700, I ran the smallest pulley I could get and it made about 6lbs boost, pistons where 8.75:1 and timing set to 30 deg, once dialed in it was a turn key and play, 5 years never had a problem---until I wanted more...

Why is it, that this always happens?:D




Darrell.

I planned to go to the R41 AC plug. Thanks for reminding me though.

I plan to buy boost gages and fuel pressure gages. Any recommendations there? I have gaffrig gages now but am curious if these new gages should be mechanical to the gage or electric with a sender.

High volume carter, sounds good. 100gph I guess.

Q about the module. Would the only reason I go to a v-6 module be for idle, or is the curve germaine too? If its just idle I'll start with the 6* and see how that goes. If its the curve, then I won't.

hooser, tsat will need to be all redone anyway due to my closed cooling. Good to hear about your good luck. I hope I am so lucky.

BT :cool:

Ok sorry to jack the thread but i need some clarification.

I work for a Performance shop, we do tuning/performance fabrication on modded v8s all the time. now im not familiar with this 177 blower you all are refering to so this may be where im being thrown off.

I know on the small block v8s we have fun with as well as v6s and i4s compression ratios can be anywhere from 9.3-10:1 and we can run 8-15psi on the motors no problem. now this is with turbos im more of the turbo guy and my partner is the s/c guy and tuner.

so basically just to name a few cars we have done.

99 v6 mustang COMPLETLY stock motor, 9.36:1 comp ratio. we twin turboed it with EVOIII Big 16g's running 17lbs of boost, a motor that normally creates 160's to the wheels, with this kit made 450hp/475tq @ 17psi and ran 10.9@127

01 Sunfire with an 04 2.2 dohc ecotec swap, once again completly stock motor, single turbo t3/t4 t04e 57trim .63 stg III exhaust. dynoed n/a 132hp, with 8lbs of boost did 227hp/220tq, we never got to run it at the track because previous to the turbo 3rd gear syncro was going bad and finally went the day before track day we were expecting to be in the 12s with traction :-D (dont laugh at the car, we love the looks on v8's faces when we walk past them)

ok so with that in mind. those were bone stock motors. why are you all limiting this setup to 3psi? its just not making sense to me, now im not saying run 20psi. but whats wrong with 6-8psi on this setup?

i only know about automotive performance and i know there are somethings that change when it gets into marine setups so please correct me where im wrong cuz this is very insteresting stuff.

You failed to mention intercooler, timing and octane in your setups. How much boost would you run without an intercooler, unmodified ignition curve, and 87-89 octane?

Yes both setups had intercoolers, timing was adv on the v6, the i4 was retarded about 1 or 2 degrees all around, i think it was running anywhere from 17-20 across the curve, we put a very mild tune on it becuase the car is map and it only had a 1bar map in it we were waiting for a 2bar and retune it on 12 psi. the v6 ran on both 93octane and c16, we ran more timing when we had c16 in it, still same boost though.

Me personally i dont prefer to do any boosted setup with out some sort of intercooler setup. and i would never run any boosted application under 93 octane, the diffrence in price isnt worth what your risking. as far as timing, id assume it would be modified once the assembly was put together :-D

You could also add a thicker head gasket to drop compression some more, I think Flatout makes a thick copper head gasket that could drop you CR by a point or more. I have never used them, so I have no idea on if they are any good. The forced air from the blower might make up for some of the inefficiency of the larger gasket

With a 24 degree module and only 28-30 total advance, you'll have very little initial advance resulting in a poor idle (surging and fouled plugs). With the V6 module, you'll have about 10 degrees of advance, so your initial advance will be higher. Blower motos idle better on more initial.
So use the V6-14, set your total around 28, dont worry about initial. Check your plugs and you can vary your total advance on how they look.
If you still have plug fouling, you can add an MSD module.
Gary