Recipe for 800+ Motor
 

I'm thinking of building some motors for my 34 DCB over the winter and need some ideas of what direction to go. I want something that is going to be reliable and easy to drive around the docks. I want 800 horsepower. I am leaning towards Whipple system on a Dart or Merlin platform. Obviously I want to spend the least amount possible, but I am most interested in doing it right. Anyone done something like this before or have any ideas for me? Eric

I had 800hp Teagues/XR Drives in my 34 DCB a few years back, plan on investing in some spare drives :rolleyes: I popped my first drive after 15hrs @ 120mph,,,not good,the 3rd owner of my boat did a Konrad drive upgrade shortly after he bought it

I know the drives will be a problem. Thinking of the Konrad solution. I have spoken with them already.

change to konrad drives 40k, new 800hp motors built 70k, just go with merc 700's/nxt, puts out 760hp great reliable, resellable package 108k for the package

Buddy, good suggestion but need 800hp.

I would go with a nice 598CI, na with some good CNC heads. This will be the cheapest and a very reliable package with good idle quality. Then if you want to upgrade later, all you have to do is feshen them with lower boost and add blower. Then you'll be at 1000+hp. Also alot of people can build the 800 package.

I agree. You can make 800HP with some cnc heads and a hydraulic roller cam. I've seen it done:cool-smiley-011: 801 HP @5900. about 760 @ 5500

The N/A package would fit the bill and be less expensive. Tell me what kind of parts I'll need.

callies crank, oliver rods, isky valve train, dart block, dart 355heads nickerson carb, dart intake, stainless marine exhaust gen 3 41/2 '' or 5'' the 598 should cost betweem 16,000 and up exhaust 3500. art ps thats 750 to 850

I already have Stellings dry headers. What is the bore/stroke? Can you recommend a CNC program for the heads. Which Dart block, tall deck, splayed main caps? What cam? What intake? Roller timing chain or belt. I have all accessories for a N/A in my 509's

4.6 bore 4.5 stroke, Big M block with splayed mains(just in case you upgrade HP later). I had good luck with the callies and Oliver's as well. Most of the head companies have a good CNC version head, I like the brodix 3X CNC, I ran a crane hydrolic with .630 lift.I think. This should be a very user friendly package and have a long life.
Good Luck
Michael

Ive been thinking about doing the same thing. Will all of the accessories work going from a gen6 to a merlin or dart block?

mounting locations are different on alot of the items. That's one reason I stayed with a gen 6 block. (since I changed EVERYTHING else during the build)

heads I would buy from JIM V on the board I'll look for his # 10.2 big m block dart single plane intake match to heads jim can do that nickerson can set up the rest carb and motor cam I have a isky hdy roller have to find paper work but its like 622ex 617int 254 245 at 114 made 647 at 6000 with a 850, with the nickerson 1050 add 20hp that was a 9.5 to 1 509 Jim Reid was the builder he built a couple of 598s with just over 800hp at $16,000 he builds for boats,race cars also been around along time. I had him do the 509 then added the nick 1050, now looking for another 30 to 40hp so jim v comes to mind head work on boat motors is not the same as car set ups. jim the best so I MIGHT SEND HIM THE HEADS INTAKE TO MATCH AND MARK OUT THE EXHAUST SO HE CAN MATCH THAT:D. I will stick with Jim Reid I think for motors I HAVE USED HIM IN 3 BUILDS SO far in 12yrs . hes close:D are you going to put this together yourself or looking for a built motor. art

JIM VALAKO RACE HEADS 616 889 0928 HE can set you up with the heads flow them. hes the best in the us from what I have heard.like I said I am going to use him this winter. art

I want to put things together myself. I really enjoy working with motors and want the satisfaction or agony of defeat.

That depends on how long that you would want them to last!!!:D

Why not just buy world products engines, 632 ci?

598", 622", or 632" NA will easily get you 800hp on pump gas. Go with Dart 355 CNC heads, single plane with 1250 Dominator and large hydralic roller or relatively small solid roller depending on what rpm you plan to turn and if you want closer to 900hp. 598" is a great motor without all of the clearancing requed for the 4.75" stroker of the larger engines.

If you go blown you can easily get 800hp from 509" motor with stock Iron heads, hydralic roller, 8-71 blower turning slow...a chiller is not even necessary. better heads...more power and even safer....it all comes down to if you want to utilize some of what you have, or start completely over....

konrad 800 rtech package w/ warrenty

800 HP? Easy. Stock 502 short block, AFR heads, GOOD head gaskets and a Whipple with Intercooler. 800 hp very easy on 91 octane. Talk to Dustin, I'm sure he can help.



Darrell.

I Have A 598 With Dart Cnc Heads That Jim Valako Did Up For Me This Spring. It's Got A Solid Lift Cam .264/.270 @.050 .730 Lift Dart Tunnel Ram 2 850 Holleys Oliver Rods Lunati Crank Jesel Shaft Rockers Comp Belt Drive It Made 830 Hp At 6300 Rpm And 783 Tq At 5300 Rpm It Runs Very Good And Its For Sale

The best you can figure, pushing the envelop, is 1.2HP per Cubic Inch on pump gas without a blower. You need to look at the HP at 5200RPM. You can rev it up but you will not run it that hard so that is the usable HP. Mercury rates them @ 5200RPM normally. What is the HP at 5200RPM? That would be a start to a comparision to a Mercury rated HP.

A 598 will only give you about 720HP@ 5200RPM on pump gas. Any body can give you a dyno number but if someone give you a dyno number of 800 HP @5200RPM, then if they stuck a HP 500 on it they would have a 560HP plus motor.

The bigger engines require much faster cam timing that is very hard on the valve train. They greater the valve timing the more compression is needed to overcome the cylinder loss. Not on pump gas any longer. Also does not idle well.

Remember that HP is not the thing, its how much torque you can make & how well you can achieve the torque curve after 4400 RPM.

I get tired of hearing all those big HP numbers, they are sales gimmicks. MY 2 cents

You were doing fine 'till you got to here.
The torque absorption curve is hull dependant. Hp and torque cross each other at 5250rpm and hp is a calculation of torque vs rpm except on an eddy current dyno. Obviously you want the torque curve to maintain or even keep rising, depending on the rpm band you want to run. Before you start spouting that high horsepower numbers are a sales gimick, you might want to know what you are talking about. ;)

I do, however, agree that there is alot of dyno's that give high numbers and don't prove themselves in the real world. :)

You may get tired of hearing these big HP numbers...but many are real, and in many cases very usable...technology has come a long ways in the past few yrs...let alone the past 15 yrs. Many engines are regularly pushing 11:1 CR on Pump gas, non fuel infected, and living long healtly lives...but everything better be right, especially the cam....:ernaehrung004: 5200 rpm is for very conservative (read...warrenty) power...6k is no big deal and can be done with a hydralic roller with ease..1.5 to 1.6hp per CI is very dooable NA...RELIABLY on pump gas with solid roller...:nhl_fight:

Both the last two have points, I push the engines with compression and they have to be right. We agree with that. Everytime I do one for a friend they burn it up with stupidity. A 11/1 Solid roller cam motor is not something that the average person can put in his boat and run turn key. That is more of a drag motor that will suck in a boat at idle. They also come with little or no warranty.

JD
I think 1.5 or 1.6 HP is on the high side. I have never seen a 502 advertised at 753 to 803 Marine HP. Most all those engines are 600HP. 600/502 = 1.2HP

Richard, I have never seen a torque curve from anybodies dyno that was rising at 5250. Most all I see start falling off at 4500. I agree hull has a lot to do with it but with the stuff i did, if you propped the boat at 5400 rpm, any switch to more RPM only gave more RPM and not much speed difference.

Agreed on 502's, I'm talking larger CI engines ~600"ish they do it regularly..850-900HP+ is pretty easy to do these days with; ~10:1, Good CNC head, and pretty mild solid roller...low to mid 6k.....

Even stock power can be broken quickly in the hands of idiots...:hitfan::drink:

here is a Steve Schmidt motor...with single quad, wet sump...
http://www.steveschmidtmarineengines...ne-engine.html

The new 18 degree ovals from Dart seem to be the way to go now...I'm trying to talk my buddy into a set who's running Dart 355 CNC heads on 598" solid roller motor. ~65 trouble free hours and already throwing down 900+HP. I'd love to see what he can pick up...

I'd go bigger Cu. In., mild cam, blown-low boost....but my opinion is biased.. ;)

If the proposed boat is light, then I would go smaller cu. in., compression, NA with higher RPM's.

Unless things have changed, their engines are assembled with less-than-premium internals. The price looks good bit the Eagle (IIRC) crank & rods don't exactly inspire confidence. I've seen more than a few of their warranty returns and build detail is lacking as well.

There's alot more to building a high-performance engine than just buying all the right parts. I can go to the grocery store and buy all the elements for a fabulous gourmet meal. That doesn't mean it will be near to edible after I'm done with it. One of the bigest barriers is machine work. Even if you really know what you're doing, if the machine or tooling isn't 100% there, you're going to have a tough time getting 200 or 300 hours out of an engine.

FWIW- I wouldn't do anything that one of the big-names doesn't do. Merc, Sterling, etc. all have to live with the engines they build. While the big-inch motors sound good on paper, getting long, reliable service might not happen. Everything from high rod angles to aggressive cams are overly stressful on hardware. You'll likely end up with an idle higher than what you want which isn't fun for dockside maneuvering and also exhaust reversion issues that put uou into noisy dry pipes. They only cost less if you factor in everything- from lifespan to aggravation. I'd call every reputable builder and inquire what they're doing in the 800HP range. You might come to like the sound of one of their price quotes in the process.

I have 598 na 750hp motors and mine fall off at 5400 and make peak tq at 4500 to 4800. They are great around the dock and have been trouble free for the 40 hrs I have put on them so far. As far as pricing, if you build a 598 with all the best components, it will cost more in most cases, than putting a blower on an existing semi stock 502 or 540. The way I looked at it was this: I used the best parts, builder and combination that I could find. If I want to step it up later for more power, I already have the best parts and foundation already there. I have a more HP capable platform than I will ever use or be able to afford for that matter. As they set, they do make an insane amount of power not to have a huffer on them that is for sure. The boat runs faster than the last pair of blower motors I had in it. It is not for everybody, but I could not be happier with mine.....plus 600 inches just sounds different than the 502 mills.....if you get in a pekker contest.....you can't beat playing the cubic inch card!!:D

Ovals on a big CU just dont add up in the old school, but I have been wrong before and have no knowlegede of these heads yet. I still think these numbers dont mean anything, 6500 RPM will blow up a bravo in short order. Also I do agree if you spin this up to 6500 RPm you will get his kind of number but you do not have any more usable torque out of the motor to spin the RPM high. HP works great in a car where it coasts, but the faster a boat runs the more drag it has, Torque is the key and most engine run out of torque at 4500 so at about 5500 you have achieved top speed on pump gas. We are not talking blower motors here. I do not know nothing of this builder & by NO means am I trying to slam him, He may be right on target but it does not work for what my garage engine stuff shows. Please keep in mind I like talking this and by NO means claim to be an expert.

Just my 2 cents

My motor makes 637tq at 4800 and 600hp at 5050 and peaks at 6000 at 670hp now. when I was out testing it was still picking up speed at 6000, but ran out of room last fall. I plan on propping it at 5700. for speed and lower if racing with a limiter. its a 509. guys I now with blowers seem to have more troubles, than the guys with the 572s and 598s. like I said my old builder said for 16,000gs he will build 598s 802hp or 820hp I for get. that was at 6000, and the tq was peak at 4800 or 5000, both motors 114 cams, hdy roller. my motor has low hours since I have been injuried for the last 3yrs but 8 or 10 hours on it:D

The new Dart Ovals have 370CC runners..:D and will absoluty Destroy a full CNC 355 head. They have not been out for that long, think of them as a "tweener" of std 24 degree stuff and 14 degree chiefs...;) Of course you have to have a sheet metal intake manifold made to fit them..but I'm told they (18 degree) will make another 75hp over the 355ish stuff. Remember big inch motors tend to really calm down very large cams. If you go solid and stay in the 264/270 @.050 on a 114 and around .700" net lift "range" with a soft lobe, they will make great power to 6500 and live, make over 800 ft/# of Tq and idle pretty dam well (800rpm in neutral, 600 in gear). We regularly turn bravos 6500 without any issues..sure the pinion gears eventually break from beating on the rev limiters, but many have lasted 100-200+hrs.:food-smiley-007: Most of the guys I run with have cats...and cats love rpm...just look at what the Merc supercat NA motors turn...~7500rpm and they also make peak Tq down relativly low...I understand the Tq/HP relationship and argument, but depending on the hull...prop speed also comes into play in a big way

I agree 100% :ernaehrung004:

I've seen bravo boats with power 700+ live much happier spinning 6000-6500 rpms range then those who spin in the 5000-5500 ranges. The bravo's can't handle the torque so RPM is the answer.

Speaking of high rpm supercat syle of motors!:cool-smiley-011: http://media.putfile.com/OTC-Patchogue

Here is a "profile" of the 370 Ovals from someone that knows a little something, something about heads...:ernaehrung004::D

http://www.sonnysracingengines.com/p...portheads.html

A plug for superchargers...

A 540 with good heads and mild hydraulic roller will make a conservative 600 HP. Adding 50% with a blower is also a conservative figure. Yes, it will break your Bravo drive, so go with the Konrad ACE.

The Konrad package uses our supercharger system with pullies and EFI program for 800 HP @ 5200 RPM. We sell this system separately and one of our customers has already changed to smaller blower pullies for 900 HP. Idles like a 500EFI.

More food for thought...Generally A smaller engine with a supercharger will get much better economy at cruise than an equal horsepower NA engine.

How much are the Konrads able to hold...real world? I know what the warrenty says, but how much have you seen put to them with relatively few problems? Might be something to consider for the next boat down the road.

Need help. Call Me. NO BLOW!

Best Regards,

Dean Gellner
Gellner Engineering Marine Power
(216) 398-8500

I've got 340 trouble free hrs, installed spring 04, on my Konrad drives behind 700hp blower motors. At this power level they are unbreakable.
The Konrad 540 was originally designed for a diesel making @800 ft lbs tq at 3000 rpm.

We warranty the drive to 800 hp. We are very comfortable at 800 hp. We do have many customers running 900+ with no problems but we make it clear that is not our market.
The Konrads work very well when installed for what they were designed for.

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